Here's what I'm testing for Vegas right now.. What would you recommend cutting for a single LotV in the 75? Should it be a card in the 60? I was thinking maybe I can cut one IoK since it serves the same role of disruption if I am maindecking it.
Or if I'm going to put it in the sideboard I think I'd cut one Last Hope for her. Not sure though honestly (easy answer would be battle rage but I'm partial to that card that's won me games I had no business of winning, and helps against a bunch of decks that we struggle against).
Not sure about everyone but this has felt even/slightly unfavorable for us. It's pretty hard to interact with what they're doing and it's always a delicate dance with your life total. This is the reason why I've been testing Disdainful Stroke and it's been great so far as well as shoring up Ad Nauseam/Storm/other random matchups.
With that said though, has anyone else been inclined to try out Strokes over Rejections? ( I think Spooly has been on Strokes for a while). I'm inclined to keep Rejections for the random Affinity matchups as well as its leanness. But Disdainful Stroke has been very powerful in the right matchups, so maybe a 1/1 split may not be such a bad idea
I am more interested in Liliana of the Veil as a mirror breaker if we are supposed to board out all Stubborn Denials for grindy matchups. I've read both ways on this. Do you guys think this is right? On one hand it's a horrendous card in a top deck war, but it's an answer to their answer as well as planeswalker. I'm conflicted on this. Do you treat the Jund/Grixis shadows mirror like a jund mirror for example and shave all counterspells and some wraiths (which SCG writers have advocated, but 3/4 swampwalker is a real thing) and discards (also an answer to their answers as well as planeswalkers, and proactive)?
I side out 3-4 Street Wraith is all grindy matchups. 3/4 swampwalker for 5 is really really bad. If that's what you're doing with the card in the matchup, you should side it out. My only reservation is having enough cantrips to hit land drops, but as long as you're bringing in Nihil Spellbomb you shouldn't have any Wraiths postboard. I typically leave a couple counterspells in, but I also start with more, and Mana Leak on a Snapcaster is pretty good. But I've been trying taking more out lately to get a feel for how it goes. I'm genuinely unsure here.
I used to have LotV in my SB and often in my MD, and even with a bunch of counterspells, it was really good in the mirrors. It made Lingering Souls the only real problematic card they could have, and even then we have plenty of ways to fight through that card. Arguably, she makes potentially dead counterspells better because the downside is less bad when you have a Lily +1 to discard to. Replacing the MD K Commands with LotV was one way I managed to get them MD. Note that this also helps against the GY hate to some extent because you have a powerful threat that doesn't care about the GY that can take over the game all on its own.
Edit: where I'd want LotV:
1) every grindy matchup. Mirrors. Midrange. Control. All of them. This is the main draw.
2) Many spell based combo matchups, as long as you have plenty to board out. Storm. Ad Naus (note: insurance against Dromoka and similar without being dead otherwise!). Probably not GR Valakut because you want your 3 mana spells to kill Chalice (aka be K Command), but if you have enough to board out I could see it.
As a MD card, her floor is pretty high so she isn't the worst against decks not on this list. Just being disruption vs degenerate decks is good even if you'd side her out the first chance you get. I'm not a fan against Bant Eldrazi, CoCo decks, and probably not against Eldrazi Tron either, though I'm unsure there.
Those makes sense, thanks. And it's reasonable to cut wraiths over discards theoretically since discards still hit planeswalkers and counters/kills. I do understand that LotV has a very high floor though. Something I'm motivated to test now ahead of Vegas..
I am more interested in Liliana of the Veil as a mirror breaker if we are supposed to board out all Stubborn Denials for grindy matchups. I've read both ways on this. Do you guys think this is right? On one hand it's a horrendous card in a top deck war, but it's an answer to their answer as well as planeswalker. I'm conflicted on this. Do you treat the Jund/Grixis shadows mirror like a jund mirror for example and shave all counterspells and some wraiths (which SCG writers have advocated, but 3/4 swampwalker is a real thing) and discards (also an answer to their answers as well as planeswalkers, and proactive)?
Still secretly testing Leyline of the Voids to break the Shadows and the Dredge matchups (as well as Living End and random nonsense). Realize the lack of synergy with Snapcaster ...
Apologize if I'm missing something but wouldn't your graveyard still be accessible to Snapcaster with a Leyline on your side only?
you can snapcaster Extractions and Rakdos Charms whereas you cannot do so with Leylines
no, I agree with what you are saying spooly. Just thinking out loud here for mirror breaking techs. That's why death's shadow isn't interested in playing Confidants etc either. For those "Grindy" matchups I think I'd prefer other multi-purpose cards like Last Hope and Kcommand, but those are good but not great in the matchup.
Still secretly testing Leyline of the Voids to break the Shadows and the Dredge matchups (as well as Living End and random nonsense). Realize the lack of synergy with Snapcaster but Extractions and Spellbombs are basically speedbumps vs. Dredge and Shadows whereas Leyline is as close to a knockout punch as they come. Was thinking of putting a singleton on the board as to have a 10% chance of drawing a knockout punch while minimizing the chance of having a dead draw late game.
ancestral visions in a SCG Classic list. I understand that Grixis Delver used to have this to side that in for a faux grixis control imitation in certain matchups. I don't like having a dead card in the first 3 turns when your turn 1-3 can be very impactful even in grindy matchups. Think I'd rather have the immediate payoff from painful truths, if that's the direction. Thoughts?
yup was coming in to say this. Top 8 is pretty much representative of what I expect Vegas to be. Plus Living End which I think is a pretty underrated deck right now
most of the top pros playing grixis shadows at SCGCHAR. even tom ross. expect to see a lot of them at the top tables in Vegas and probably good to think about mirror breakers..
I see a few pros advocate By Force lately, but I don't like it. It's very mana intensive and has little synergy with Snapcaster. Against Affinity, I'd rather have Kcommand and that has other applications. Against Eldrazi Tron it's helpful, but arguably Kcommand does the job. Tezzerator/Lantern aren't commmon enough to be worth it. Rakdos Charm I think is far more superior in this metagame as a sideboard card and basically I think we don't need dedicated artifact hate in this meta (and an inefficient one at that).
Some keep or mulligan thoughts I'd appreciate help on that I've had recently
1. Game 1 on the play: Delta Thoughtseize Push Denial Snapcaster Kcommand Tasigur
Mulligan. The cards are nice but do not work together. There's no Scour to power out an early Tasigur, nor a SV to find lands. I may keep against some matchups (like the grixis shadows mirrow) due to card quality but in the dark I'm pitching this
Another hand that could bget really good in a hurry or get you stuck in a hurry. These hands are why some argue for the second Vents over Crypt. you have 16 lands that produce a blue but you really want to draw one off the bad to get the SVs and the graveyard going. In the dark I mulligan this as the deck can get better 6s easily and with no removals, there are too many matchups where you are effectively dead before you can even get started
The two delve threats are bad but ultimately I think even removing Angler, this would be a fine hand in this metagame where bolt/push are live more often than not. This can also go south real quick though but you do have a Wraith as well to give you a card/fuel the graveyard
I think this is a deceptive hand because it's a turn 2 tasigur with 2 redraws. But in this metagame a turn 2 4/5 without any interaction is unlikely to be good. I could easily be wrong on this though..
5. Game 2 OTD vs. Abzan: Vents Shadow Push Leak Staticaster Tasigur Wraith
Keep
A redraw with Staticaster, two threats and interactions. I thought because it's a grindy matchup I should keep this as a nod to the hand's card quality. But this hand could go nowhere real fast.
Hello ppl. I just had a game where I spent thinking for over 4mins. Or is there an obvious play and I'm just too inexperienced with the deck to know what do. What would you do here? I bolted face last turn. (colonnade should be grayed out)
I used collective with all 3 modes pitching push and lily. His hand was logic knot, snap, seas. Took knot, next turn, run kola into another logic knot, next turn snap bolt for win. Was I greedy? Is there another play which's better?
I'm assuming his current hand is Seas+x+y. I would snapcaster+bolt his face and make him draw consecutive answers. My plan would be to put him to 1 and put a snapcaster in. He can't pressure you by attacking with Clique with him being dead on board unless he has a snapcaster (push it), clique (you'll get to kcommand/brutality him with him tapping 3 out of 4 (5) lands and then you are only dead to dispel on kcommand), or restoration angel (he's tapped out, kill him however you like). If he has path he'd likely play it on your upkeep so then you can push+brutality him. Supreme verdict can't get him out as that necessitates he tap out. Cryptic command is a bit problematic so I'd try and not get 2 for 1'd and attack next turn with Snapcaster first. You have multiple answers to his Clique/ways to kill him so just make sure you don't get 2-for-1'd in any way and make him have answers every turn in a mana efficient way
yea that was my impression as well Spooly. Certainly not worth packing hate for in an open field because it's highly susceptible to a major subset of the metagame (combo) but I think it'll do a good job policing MTGO sometime..
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Or if I'm going to put it in the sideboard I think I'd cut one Last Hope for her. Not sure though honestly (easy answer would be battle rage but I'm partial to that card that's won me games I had no business of winning, and helps against a bunch of decks that we struggle against).
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Vision
4 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Temur Battle Rage
Not sure about everyone but this has felt even/slightly unfavorable for us. It's pretty hard to interact with what they're doing and it's always a delicate dance with your life total. This is the reason why I've been testing Disdainful Stroke and it's been great so far as well as shoring up Ad Nauseam/Storm/other random matchups.
With that said though, has anyone else been inclined to try out Strokes over Rejections? ( I think Spooly has been on Strokes for a while). I'm inclined to keep Rejections for the random Affinity matchups as well as its leanness. But Disdainful Stroke has been very powerful in the right matchups, so maybe a 1/1 split may not be such a bad idea
Those makes sense, thanks. And it's reasonable to cut wraiths over discards theoretically since discards still hit planeswalkers and counters/kills. I do understand that LotV has a very high floor though. Something I'm motivated to test now ahead of Vegas..
Grixis Shadows
Eldrazi Tron (maybe? they can clutter the field with ballistas/reshapers)
Gifts storm
Titanshift..?
Jund SHadows
Abzan
doesn't feel like it'd fit the gameplan for many of the top metagames, unless I'm missing something
you can snapcaster Extractions and Rakdos Charms whereas you cannot do so with Leylines
Still secretly testing Leyline of the Voids to break the Shadows and the Dredge matchups (as well as Living End and random nonsense). Realize the lack of synergy with Snapcaster but Extractions and Spellbombs are basically speedbumps vs. Dredge and Shadows whereas Leyline is as close to a knockout punch as they come. Was thinking of putting a singleton on the board as to have a 10% chance of drawing a knockout punch while minimizing the chance of having a dead draw late game.
Thoughts?
1. Game 1 on the play: Delta Thoughtseize Push Denial Snapcaster Kcommand Tasigur
2. Game 1 OTP: Blood Crypt SV SV Denial Shadow Tasigur Wraith
Another hand that could bget really good in a hurry or get you stuck in a hurry. These hands are why some argue for the second Vents over Crypt. you have 16 lands that produce a blue but you really want to draw one off the bad to get the SVs and the graveyard going. In the dark I mulligan this as the deck can get better 6s easily and with no removals, there are too many matchups where you are effectively dead before you can even get started
3. Game 1 OTD: Tarn Bolt Push Snapcaster Angler Tasigur Wraith
The two delve threats are bad but ultimately I think even removing Angler, this would be a fine hand in this metagame where bolt/push are live more often than not. This can also go south real quick though but you do have a Wraith as well to give you a card/fuel the graveyard
4. Game 1 OTP: Delta Delta Grave Swamp Wraith Wraith Tasigur
I think this is a deceptive hand because it's a turn 2 tasigur with 2 redraws. But in this metagame a turn 2 4/5 without any interaction is unlikely to be good. I could easily be wrong on this though..
5. Game 2 OTD vs. Abzan: Vents Shadow Push Leak Staticaster Tasigur Wraith
A redraw with Staticaster, two threats and interactions. I thought because it's a grindy matchup I should keep this as a nod to the hand's card quality. But this hand could go nowhere real fast.
I'm assuming his current hand is Seas+x+y. I would snapcaster+bolt his face and make him draw consecutive answers. My plan would be to put him to 1 and put a snapcaster in. He can't pressure you by attacking with Clique with him being dead on board unless he has a snapcaster (push it), clique (you'll get to kcommand/brutality him with him tapping 3 out of 4 (5) lands and then you are only dead to dispel on kcommand), or restoration angel (he's tapped out, kill him however you like). If he has path he'd likely play it on your upkeep so then you can push+brutality him. Supreme verdict can't get him out as that necessitates he tap out. Cryptic command is a bit problematic so I'd try and not get 2 for 1'd and attack next turn with Snapcaster first. You have multiple answers to his Clique/ways to kill him so just make sure you don't get 2-for-1'd in any way and make him have answers every turn in a mana efficient way