Thats so false. As with any 3 color mana base, there is an opportunity cost of running more of your third color. While casting TKS on curve is nice, Id much rather have T1 IoK and T3 Souls in the dark. Those are just better cards in the vast majority of matchups. If I lose consistency with being able to cast some worse cards, fine, but Im not cutting consistency of casting the best cards in the deck and my entire sideboard in order to hit curved out smashers. Not worth it at all.
Caves of Koilos makes white mana and black mana and colorless mana, so cutting some other things for that makes you have more sources of everything, not fewer. You get to cast everything on time when you run a mana base like what I've proposed. Just count out the sources and compare against Karsten's table. The tradeoff is that it's a little more painful sometimes. But that's not the same as just being straight up unable to cast things.
Yeah, cutting purge when everyone is expecting tron is "unambiguously wrong."
I never said cutting Purge was obviously right, just that your mana was obviously bad.
We can have a separate discussion about Celestial Purge if you'd like: everyone knows Blood Moon is basically mediocre against Tron, so just because that's on the uptick doesn't mean everyone is rushing to Blood Moon as fast as they can. More to the point, what red decks exist now in the format that want to just jam Blood Moon? URx is basically garbage now, we slam Grishoalbrand regardless of whether or not they get to cast Bloom, Burn doesn't run them because they already destroy big mana, Naya Zoo itself has incredibly greedy mana, and Jund usually gets it sideboarded against them, so I doubt that they want it, especially now that Bloom is also gone. There just isn't a tier 1 deck that can run a pile of Blood Moons. Maybe Affinity, but they don't run it 100% of the time, and my board overloads on robots hate anyway.
Anyway, if you're going to get mad when people point out potential problems with your ideas, why even bother sharing them online?
Herder produces colorless and I run 4. Truly have never had an issue finding SOME colorless source, especially with maps. If I cut them, I may move to some caves, but I can't really see how those are any better than fetches and shocks.
They're better because they make all 3 "colors". Herder makes tokens, but only after you've missed your chance to cast TKS and/or Smasher on curve. Getting the sources right is really just a matter of probability and statistics, cf. Karsten's article that keeps getting posted, so it's pretty much umambiguously wrong to be running only 7 colorless lands with your decklist.
1) The best Blood Moon deck is dead. Get those Celestial Purges out of the SB.
2) We're going to see a lot more aggro and Tron, and a lot less midrange now that one of the natural prey for those decks is gone. Interestingly, I think our response to both these developments is similar - just play lower to the ground. Oblivion Sower was needed to go over the midrange decks, but it's not great versus aggro. Similarly, we can't go over Tron, so Sower isn't really the ideal card - Smasher would actually be better here since we need to race, straight up. For similar reasons, I think we just suck it up and play 4 Stranglers. That's really a key card versus aggro and is another random thing to pressure Tron's life total.
That's zero Maps and 26 lands - I added back the third Eye since we don't have the Maps in this build. Might be wrong, but we're not so reliant on the early Eye with zero 6-drops, so I figured this version of the deck just curves out naturally more often. I think there are still situations where you want access to Ulamog, so I left that in there to tutor for with Eye in games that just naturally go long. We should be able to cast it more reliably with 26 lands anyway. It's possible that should be a Map or a Smasher, though.
Br gets better with twin ban, crumble to dust for tron (and the mirror), and red sweepers for aggressive decks and artifact hate
IMO, what BR really needs to do to be good versus Tron is to have Lightning Bolt and Reality Smashers to race because BR is so horrible versus a resolved Wurmcoil Engine. Also, I'm not sure if you can cast Anger of the Gods in this deck on time because 1RR is really hard.
The ban is what it is. Tron isn't a horrible match up, a challenge sure but not horrible, just means possibly upping GQ to 4 MD to combat that puts you over 50% by turn 3. Wurmcoil is answered cleanly in this build with Path. Its Karn that is the issue, and even a resolved Karn isn't instascoop. With this announcement though Warping Wail might loses a little bit of its luster since Snap, Deceiver Exarch and Skite made up 3 of the top 10 most played creatures in the format. Affinty, Burn, Infect and Boggles will likely steadily rise to combat tron so I still think MD spellskite will go a long way. The fear against twin was them having both blood moon and the combo but with the combo gone while still having Maps, it might be correct to now run a full playset of Caves and move beyond fetches.
At least in my experience, 4 GQ is still not really enough - having Surgical Extraction or something like that is what really makes the matchup feel reasonable. It's a shame that those cards are so horrible versus linear aggro.
You want more consistency? Change the Reality Smashers and Matter Reshapers into Sowers & Stranglers.
But I found Strangler's blanked a lot, or didn't have enough processing to be relevant when I wanted them.
And Sower was often just dead in my hand if I had a clunky draw. It's also pretty underwhelming if you're losing.
First, a nitpick: you have 24 lands. You forgot to list your Bog.
I agree that multiple Sowers can be clunky and mediocre on defense, especially when your opponent is going wide, but I don't see how Reality Smasher helps there. As a defensive card, it's just worse since it has 3 less toughness.
A thing about the offensive capability of Reality Smasher, by the way, is that 5/5 is actually not as huge as you might think, especially past turn 4 or so. Like sometimes you have Smasher and your opponent has like Kird Ape and Nacatl, and you actually just can't attack because a double-block leads to an awful trade. I think the card is pretty win more.
This archetype has kind of been aching for a good 3cmc sweeper, and sadly, I don't think we have one. If only Flaying Tendrils gave -3/-3, then we would be in business.
Not sure why people are playing Expedition Map, I don't think it's necessary unless you're going much heavier drop route.
Because the mana is shaky and sometimes you need some fixing. Also, grabbing the utility lands is a common play.
I've been kicking this around with quite a lot of success. I've found that Warping Wail just screws up the mana unnecessarily in this shell just because Path to Exile does the first mode better.
Reality Smasher might have a place - as is, this deck is basically just doing what the mono-black Eldrazi Processors thread is trying to do with OGW, except we're just running Souls instead of Smasher, which I think is right. But it's possible we should run both.
This deck looks like it plays a lot like Jund. Does it? I'm after a deck that plays like Jund, but isn't Jund (long story short, Jund isn't how it use to be when I started Modern). I'm looking to get into the deck, and a midrange strategy like Jund would be great.
It's just like Jund except with better top end. You see the decklists - discard, removal, and undercosted threats, just like it used to be.
I don't like the idea of cutting Marsh Flats entirely, but I could appreciate reducing the numbers to 2-3 to accommodate a 1-off Wastes.
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
I don't see the point. Your goal is to consistently get your B/W source on Turn 1-3 online. If you replace all 4 fetches with Cave of Kolios you (and I was running 2 Isolated Chapels that are going to be replaced with Godless Shrines) you still have that same chance. If you'd have a fetch in hand, you instead have a Cave which gives you all 3 "colors" you need. If you draw a natural godless shrine you have that as well. I don't think we need Fetches in this deck.
I like fetches for a two main reasons. First, they allow you to greatly improve the chance that you have accces to an early basic land when trying to play around Blood Moon. This is huge and enough of a reason by itself. Second, they enable you to play fewer copies of Godless Shrine, which is good because past the first one, each Godless Shrine afterwards is an awful topdeck. You don't want to shock yourself if you can help it. So if you topdeck Marsh Flats instead, you can save yourself a damage and just get a basic. Or if you have Urborg in play and don't care about the white mana, you can just play it and never crack it, and not have to pay 2 life just to have it come into play untapped. The mana base I posted a few posts ago has only one Godless Shrine, and that is awesome.
Another mana-related question is basic Wastes. With only 4 TKS and 2 Warping Wail, do we care that much if we get shut off of <> by Blood Moon? I'm pretty sure it's necessary in the <>B builds that are also running Reality Smasher and 3-4 Warping Wail alongside TKS, but I don't know about this build.
G2 you have three cards that allows you to avoid moon: disenchant, celestial purge and Blight herder's scions. In all my games I really hadn't so much problems vs blood moon, I also could cast an Ulamog with 6 lands and 4 scions. I think fulminator Mage, for example, is much better against us
This is true, and if you don't run Warping Wail, I think you can get away with something like this:
Another mana-related question is basic Wastes. With only 4 TKS and 2 Warping Wail, do we care that much if we get shut off of <> by Blood Moon? I'm pretty sure it's necessary in the <>B builds that are also running Reality Smasher and 3-4 Warping Wail alongside TKS, but I don't know about this build.
I would not play 3 shambling vents. One is plenty. It's not like you'll spend 9 mana plus 3 lands to attack with it.
The Vault + creatures has won me more games than I had a right to (especially against zoo as they can't just alpha strike you).
I'm starting to think about branching outside of white into either green or blue. Blue gives us a cute card in delay, which can be a hard counter for all intents and purposes. That card would give us better game vs Tron. The green would give us: Maelstrom pulse, abrupt decay, golgari charm, putrefy and plenty of answers to affinity. I think the green would make the blood moon matches a heck of a lot better. I know this is technically not the thread for it but I am really wondering if b/w is the best combination the deck can have.
I wish the magic community here was a bit better so that i could play test to the death and report but alas...guess we'll have to wait until the pro tour!
I have played every BGx deck there is extensively over the last five years, and I can tell you that none of those green cards is particularly good versus Affinity. In fact, I side out Maelstrom Pulse a lot of the time versus them. Abrupt Decay is great versus the Blood Moon decks, though, this is true.
As for Shambling Vents, I think the point is that you want to naturally draw it versus the aggro decks instead of having to break a Map for it. I agree that 3 is a lot, though. I'd want to be sure that that card is actually great before burdening my mana with a tapped land like that.
Shambling Vents is what gives this deck a fair match up against Zoo and Burn
Is this true? I've never actually played with this card, but in that role, it seems weak on the surface. It can't trade with any of the Zoo creatures and the activation is so expensive (i.e. activating it on turns 4-5 probably means you aren't playing any Eldrazi that turn). Could you elaborate a little?
I don't think I am going to cut Reality Smasher completely. I didn't like the mainboarded Slaughter Pact and would trim the Oblivion Sowers by 1 so your creature base is:
Also I have REALLY like Vault of the Archangel and think it deserves a spot. It's just SO good with Lingering Souls and Blight Herder tokens. Also remember that with Reality Smasher it only does 1 to the blocker and then tramples over for the rest.
Obviously I'd like to run Reality Smasher and Vault if I could, but <> mana for Smasher is just so hard and I can't identify any land in the mana base that I just posted that I would cut for Vault without making the situation with colored sources even worse. Maybe the 2nd GQ? But that card is so good!
My personal preference is to play it safe when I'm not sure what to do. But your tolerance for risk might be different
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Caves of Koilos makes white mana and black mana and colorless mana, so cutting some other things for that makes you have more sources of everything, not fewer. You get to cast everything on time when you run a mana base like what I've proposed. Just count out the sources and compare against Karsten's table. The tradeoff is that it's a little more painful sometimes. But that's not the same as just being straight up unable to cast things.
I never said cutting Purge was obviously right, just that your mana was obviously bad.
We can have a separate discussion about Celestial Purge if you'd like: everyone knows Blood Moon is basically mediocre against Tron, so just because that's on the uptick doesn't mean everyone is rushing to Blood Moon as fast as they can. More to the point, what red decks exist now in the format that want to just jam Blood Moon? URx is basically garbage now, we slam Grishoalbrand regardless of whether or not they get to cast Bloom, Burn doesn't run them because they already destroy big mana, Naya Zoo itself has incredibly greedy mana, and Jund usually gets it sideboarded against them, so I doubt that they want it, especially now that Bloom is also gone. There just isn't a tier 1 deck that can run a pile of Blood Moons. Maybe Affinity, but they don't run it 100% of the time, and my board overloads on robots hate anyway.
Anyway, if you're going to get mad when people point out potential problems with your ideas, why even bother sharing them online?
1) The best Blood Moon deck is dead. Get those Celestial Purges out of the SB.
2) We're going to see a lot more aggro and Tron, and a lot less midrange now that one of the natural prey for those decks is gone. Interestingly, I think our response to both these developments is similar - just play lower to the ground. Oblivion Sower was needed to go over the midrange decks, but it's not great versus aggro. Similarly, we can't go over Tron, so Sower isn't really the ideal card - Smasher would actually be better here since we need to race, straight up. For similar reasons, I think we just suck it up and play 4 Stranglers. That's really a key card versus aggro and is another random thing to pressure Tron's life total.
Theorycraft decklist:
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb to Yawgmoth
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Lingering Souls
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Blight Herder
2 Reality Smasher
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Path to Exile
2 Disfigure
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Stony Silence
2 Spellskite
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
1 Kataki, War's Wage
That's zero Maps and 26 lands - I added back the third Eye since we don't have the Maps in this build. Might be wrong, but we're not so reliant on the early Eye with zero 6-drops, so I figured this version of the deck just curves out naturally more often. I think there are still situations where you want access to Ulamog, so I left that in there to tutor for with Eye in games that just naturally go long. We should be able to cast it more reliably with 26 lands anyway. It's possible that should be a Map or a Smasher, though.
First, a nitpick: you have 24 lands. You forgot to list your Bog.
I agree that multiple Sowers can be clunky and mediocre on defense, especially when your opponent is going wide, but I don't see how Reality Smasher helps there. As a defensive card, it's just worse since it has 3 less toughness.
A thing about the offensive capability of Reality Smasher, by the way, is that 5/5 is actually not as huge as you might think, especially past turn 4 or so. Like sometimes you have Smasher and your opponent has like Kird Ape and Nacatl, and you actually just can't attack because a double-block leads to an awful trade. I think the card is pretty win more.
This archetype has kind of been aching for a good 3cmc sweeper, and sadly, I don't think we have one. If only Flaying Tendrils gave -3/-3, then we would be in business.
Because the mana is shaky and sometimes you need some fixing. Also, grabbing the utility lands is a common play.
I've been kicking this around with quite a lot of success. I've found that Warping Wail just screws up the mana unnecessarily in this shell just because Path to Exile does the first mode better.
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Wasteland Strangler
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Expedition Map
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
2 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
3 Rest for the Weary
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Damnation
Reality Smasher might have a place - as is, this deck is basically just doing what the mono-black Eldrazi Processors thread is trying to do with OGW, except we're just running Souls instead of Smasher, which I think is right. But it's possible we should run both.
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
This is 14/13/11 B/W/C count, which is good if your only C card is Thought-Knot Seer.
As for Shambling Vents, I think the point is that you want to naturally draw it versus the aggro decks instead of having to break a Map for it. I agree that 3 is a lot, though. I'd want to be sure that that card is actually great before burdening my mana with a tapped land like that.
My personal preference is to play it safe when I'm not sure what to do. But your tolerance for risk might be different