Against counter decks (mainly UB, Grixis) we can't win the counter war since they have better counters (Logic Knot, Cryptic Command) and more mana; technically Stubborn Denial, if ferocious is active, is better but it's difficult to stick a threat against them and you set up the counter war to play one of them
Logic Knot is definitely very strong (and something I need to play around more in counter wars, but I still like counters against Blue decks. Against UB counter and discard decks, I've been leaning towards treating them like BGx and boarding out counters to hedge against the discard, but I do think counters are good against Control, especially when their curve goes so high. Of course, this becomes irrelevant in your BBE point, but I'll get there soon.
Huntmaster of the Fells is very fragile and its wolf usually is bounced by jace or useless; it's also quite slow and easily counterable.
I agree with this to an extent. Huntmaster is definitely not great against Midrange/Control. It is hard to land against anyone with decent counters, and dies to a lot of things. Of course, it still generates a non-zero amount of card advantage in those matchups, which is kind of exactly what we want. Huntmaster does amazing amounts of work for me against creature decks (I think that is mostly how it earns its spot in the board), so having the extra threat for these matchups seems worth it to me. Of course, Walkers like Chandra will be better here, but gumming up the board might be even better due to BBE on the opposing side. I haven't played against it much, but I like how Huntmaster fares against BBE. If you want more action for these matchups, I think it is easy to defend cutting Huntmaster. I still like having such a versatile threat though.
Counters against aggro and combo are very strong;
Counters are probably the reason our combo matchups are so strong. You like counters against Aggro? I've been trimming them to make room for more removal. And a lot of those decks (Humans and other Vial/Cavern decks) basically invalidate counters. Depending on the matchup, some Snares and/or Leaks stay, and it's usually easy to justify keeping a Denial or two, but I don't like them that much. I'd much rather have removal when possible, since it deals with the creature after it hits the board, and Aggro is good at hitting the board early, making counters drawn after the first few turns dramatically worse.
Of course, Aggro/Combo is a different story. Counters are great against those decks. Hollow One not included because it is just so fast.
Curious Obsession behaves the same way as counterspells: good against aggro/combo, bad with midrange control;
I'm on the fence with Obsession against Aggro. When your attacks are okay, it is straight fire. When you are on the backfoot, it is much worse. I guess the +1/+1 is still something, but I don't like it when I have to block. It does make turning the corner easier. I think I'll look into keeping it more against them.
I still like it against Midrange and Control, as long as I'm not leaving out threats for it. It does perform like Counters against Discard decks (really bad once they shred your hand) but it is like a threat they have to answer in itself. As long as it connects once, it replaces itself, and I'm happy with that.
I replaced 1 Jace and the lone Huntmaster with 2 Bloodbraid Elf for the midrange/control plan since without permission it's a blast;
YES! I love that you are trying this! I would be totally down to sideboard into BBE if I agreed on the counters against Control point. I still don't quite agree on counters being bad against Control, but it lets you support BBE, so I'm excited to hear about how it goes. I'm absolutely in favour of it against Midrange though. If I didn't like Huntmaster so much, I'd probably be on the same plan for Midrange. One concern I have for the BBE plan postboard is that we cut lands for cantrips. This is great for Delver decks, but not so good for BBE Midrange. BBE ignores lands, but will cast a Bauble, Visions, or Scour if it sees them. Of course, card advantage is card advantage, but the tempo from BBE hitting Goyf, Knucks, and other powerful cards will show up less often due to our density of cheap and less impactful spells.
With that, sell me on BBE over Huntmaster (even just one copy). How do you board against Aggro decks? You have artifact hate for Vial decks and Affinity, but how would you board for something like a Naya BBE Zoo deck? I'm interested in how your 75 deals with the kinds of decks that Huntmaster can be a big help against (not that Huntmaster isn't great against Vial decks and at least decent against Affinity). I'm worried you don't have enough cards against Aggro with BBE. Do you think BBE will help against Aggro? I've been under the assumption that the body isn't great there, but could be totally wrong.
I cut the third Bauble for Obsession, Curator for the second Tarfire, and Vapor Snag to move Roast into the main. Ceremonious Rejection took Roast's spot, since I wanted more stuff for Tron. I honestly considered throwing in a second Spreading Seas there (for a 3/2 Moon/Seas split), but Rejection is very similar, since both need to be drawn before the threats come down. Rejection has the added benefit of countering Etched Champion, which I think makes it worth it.
It is a little rough against Merfolk (compared to Firespout. My other sweeper is Pyroclasm, so I don't mind the extra R for the third point of damage), but there aren't many other mana denial creature decks out there, since Taxes was pretty completely replaced by Humans.
I like sweepers against Affinity. I guess I just don't board it in because the other sweeper I run is Pyroclasm (and EE technically), which is cheaper and always made more sense to me since Anger is comparatively slower. I guess Anger should come in too. I never really considered it. Do you find your three mana sweepers come down soon enough against Affinity?
I never ran more than one Curiosity, so I don't think I would go up on Obsession without being extremely impressed. It definitely looks better with Shoal, but I think it is a fine one-off even without. Obsession on Delver is certainly great, but I would be happy to stick it on a Mandrills due to being a Trampling 5/5. Those are great stats, and trample with that much power will almost always draw us a card.
The Traverse shell definitely can't abuse it as easily as Shoal would, but I would play it like I did Curiosity. Hold it until you are confident that you can connect at least once, making it kind of a bad cantrip (a cantrip that you can't cast until your threat is temporarily safe). Then, you have a must answer threat, after already getting your 1-for-1. If they don't answer it then, you probably won the game (or they are playing something linear and you didn't hit enough disruption, but it helps to draw into gas, so there is that).
@Lemonbuster: I dislike the RR on Anger, but I've liked it a lot so far. The best thing about Anger is the versatility. I bring it in against every go-wide aggro deck I can think of (except Affinity), as well as Dredge and Hollow One (not sure I should for that last one though).
Having sweepers with different names is good for the Humans matchup. And, as Mikefon said, Anger has some extra points against Company decks, which love their recursive threats.
I think you can easily justify having a 1/1/1 Anger/Firespout/EE split.
@Mikefon: That's fair. I'm probably going to have to jam it now and see for myself if Curiosity effects (or, I guess, almost strictly better Curiosity effects) are good again.
How has Curious Obsession been for those who tried it so far? I don't like the downside, but the +1/+1 makes attacking into creatures a lot easier. Delve threats and Colonnade get a lot less scary to face down. And I just noticed any of our creatures attacking satisfies it- it doesn't have to be the enchanted creature. I also may or may not have thought you had to sacrifice the enchanted creature...
I like the look of your list. Moving more removal (maindeck Roast) makes room for more haymakers in the board, and I kind of want to cut a Bauble and Curator to copy a bit of your spell configuration. I might have to do that and try Curator again later. I don't really want to go down a Bauble for Obsession without going up an Instant/Sorcery.
How is your Big Mana matchup? I've been swimming in Tron, and I think you might need more cards for it. Although, I like Obsession and the counters in the board for it. I think there is going to be a lot of Big Mana coming up (might even be here already), and I want to respect (and subsequently destroy) it.
Actually, bouncing non-creature permanents is probably more relevant than ever. I could see dropping my maindeck Simic Charm for Echoing Truth. That could be really good in this format.
On Display of Dominance, I kind of like it. I'm inclined to think I just want more haymakers in the board, but I could see a slot for it. I like the pseudo-Hexproof mode a lot, because that is a common Simic Charm mode in those matchups. Kill a walker if you need to, or save a threat. Unfortunately, abilities still get through.
The first mode alone is probably too niche. With the second mode countering removal, I think it could actually be a defensible choice.
This is extremely anecdotal, but I am freaking out about what Collar just did to my Mardu Pyromancer opponent. After a midrange slog, we ended up in a drawn out topdeck war, with Lingering Souls (6 spirits on board at the time, but another flashbacked copy of souls made for a total of 8 during the game) laughing at my 7/8 Goyf. I topdecked Collar. The spirits stopped laughing. Then I got the Huntmaster combo off.
I know they run a bunch of removal, but we have a lot of threats postboard, and aren't winning without one on board. Collar means that we can't lose the race, so they have to remove every threat we hit. I think I like it here, even though the deathtouch is basically irrelevant (although shooting Reveler at the end with Huntmaster was certainly satisfying).
I'll say I did cast two Dismembers in one game and it was fine. The other games I saw 1 or 0, but it was always awesome the first time I saw it, and playing 2 helps us see that first one faster. The idea behind Melody is that I'm setting up 4 lands against BGx as fast as possible so I can play bombs off the top and through discard. But I trust you guys that it's actually bad. I'm gonna keep it until I can at least cast it and see for myself! Collar does seem pretty good and I'd like to find space for one of those side as well. Lastly, I'd love a Needle in the board if possible for planeswalkers. So Melody is definitely on the chopping block.
I love Dismember. I haven't run a 75 without a copy for a while. I've never had the courage (or space) to put the second in the main, although it was in the side for Eldrazi for a while. Keep us posted on how often that is a liability. I like Melody as a topdeck, and your bomb strategy makes sense, but I never found it useful. Definitely give it a shot though, because I could have just had a skewed sample. I stopped testing it because I wanted to play cards that I knew were good.
Keep permission against UW. It helps you win stack wars (/even participate) and force through Jace/Hunt, which is crucial. Shoal especially is useful for this. Also, if they figure out you don't have Leaks anymore, they'll just Jace you like crazy. Of course, Denial is our best counterspell. A lot of the time I just use cantrips to make land drops and pass doing nothing, assembling a hand full of Denials and Shoals. When I draw Mandrills and the time is right, I cast him for G and stop whatever they try to do in response (Cryptic Command a huge liability in stack wars). Then, they either Verdict (and I start over/punish them with Jace) or try to remove him again (another stack war/punish their taps with Jace). They suck against Jace with no Bolts so we can just immediately 0 him and start drowning opp in cards. Incidentally that makes Verdict a lot worse against us. We can even bait it with a couple threats on turn three and then Jace them.
I started removing permission against BGx because it was bad when they could shred my hand, especially with Liliana; they can sneak her in and then tick up forever and force us to hemorrhage cards. So I like the plan there to be stuff we can dump fast, like lands and creatures, to set up for late-game bombs off the top. But against spell-based decks with no hand disruption, permission is awesome. I will say that none of the UXs decks I faced last night had any Gideons (although I did run into some Nahiris, and just Tarfired them every time).
I was wrong. I just checked my sideboard sheet, and I've been cutting Scours and Bolts against UW (plus Snag and a land), which I actually don't like either with them running Jace. I'm gonna want burn spells. I do like the idea of a non-creature bomb to punish them, but watch out for Detention Sphere when you slam your Jace. Do you guys think Keranos would shine in the Jace meta? They can fate-seal you to dodge the Bolt, but then you get to draw. And we don't run many lands, so having two "Bolts" in a row seems likely.
Here's what I was doing last night against UW that I found to be effective:
What are you Surgicaling against UW? Path? UW has been running Gideon of the Trials lately, which locks down our first threat, getting us to overextend into a verdict, and closes out the game. I've been trying to keep Dismember as an answer when they start getting in with it. I don't think I've ever had it come up postboard, so I'm not sure how viable that plan actually is.
I have yet to run into Hollow One, but I can't imagine the matchup is very good. Seems like Dredge 2.0 that's a little softer to Grudge but stronger vs. Shoal/beaters, as well as more consistent. Have you guys been struggling there?
It is really swingy. Land a 5/6 Goyf (or just 4/5 if they don't hit Angler) and you are favoured. If you don't land Goyf, usually they take it due to having a good chance of putting down an early Hollow One or two, in addition to finding Angler with all the draw. Either turn on discarded Phoenixes (which we basically just can't deal with preboard), and Flameblade Adept is extremely hard to block (unless you are interested in just never turning the corner and dying to aforementioned phoenixes).
I treat it a lot like Dredge. Counter the enabling discard if you can, land a threat, clock and continue to disrupt. The games in which I had Goyf were usually won; the ones in which I didn't were usually lost. Burning Inquiry can totally screw us, but random discard occasionally screws them. And watch out for Blood Moon postboard if you can! Postboard I actually board out a lot of my counters because I have answers in the board (Grudge, Revelry, Roast, Collar, sweepers for the little buggers, and the Ravenous Trap which is probably going to be cut from my board soon), and they are fast enough that I don't want Spell Snare or Mana Leak stuck in my hand after a bunch of big spells resolve. I keep a couple Denials (might try to keep all of them) because it is great. Hard countering Fatal Push almost makes up for potentially being stuck in hand.
To be fair, I don't think I ended up playing more than 5 Leagues with Melody, but the card was very rarely good. I actually don't think there was a game in which it did its job. I stole a Nacatl from Big Zoo once when we were both in topdeck mode and it was my only answer! Then again, I was playing it over EE, which is fantastic. I think I'd keep my Roast in the board over it (for the reasons you mentioned).
Melody is a 2CMC Blue card though. Are there any matchups in which you want it and Shoal postboard? That is a non-zero benefit.
I am stoked to see how the meta shapes up. I'm thinking Jace decks everywhere, and then linear decks to laugh at Jace.
My Traverse list now has Deprive and Basilisk Collar in the board. Basilisk Collar has seemed really good in the ~10 tournament practice matches that I ended up boarding it in for. Lifelink is the real deal. Deathtouch is great against fatties. Depending on the meta though, I might go back to Chart and Shoal for a little while (probably should be testing both lists anyways), because I expect it to be better (in game one at least) against linear decks.
Since Ashton brought up the topic of graveyard hate, let's talk about it a bit more. Does anyone actually like grave hate against BR Hollow One? I've found Anger to be decent (deals with Bloodghast and Phoenix, while taking out any Adepts that are lying around), but don't really like Ravenous Trap here. I've been testing the matchup a bit more the last few days, and found exiling their graveyard actually doesn't do all that much. It can stop them from Delving for a while, or deal with the first few recursive threats, but they can still get you with Adept and Hollow One (or refill the yard). I imagine similar graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt) would be about as bad. Which means my non-Anger hate is basically there for Dredge and Living End (I guess Goryo's Vengeance, but that is even rarer). Which makes me want to go back to ignoring graveyard hate. I like Anger, but it comes in for WAY more matchups. Most graveyard decks can also be slowed by Shoal, so I don't think we want hate with it, but without Shoal, I wanted a bit more game against Dredge and Hollow One. I'm thinking the hate isn't worth it. Collar also seems good there, so that is at least something. And the extra slot in the board can go to fighting the presumably upcoming Midrange and Control decks. Thoughts?
Edit: How are you all going to approach the UW matchup now? That I think will be our absolute worst one. Verdict, Jace, Gideon, Path, and all that other removal. I've been on the "cut most counters, maximize threat density, and slog through it" plan, but I'm thinking it won't take much more than a resolved walker or two to be lights out, so maybe tempo could be better? I just don't know how we should fight a deck with Jace and the best removal possible against us.
I don't think I'd run Jace in the main. I'd have the same problem with that as running a mainboard Huntmaster. It'll be a liability too often, unless you significantly change the deck (more lands, more midrangey, etc). Maybe a Temur Midrange deck (Temur Moon maybe) would be good with Jace though.
In the side, it's probably a Midrange powerhouse. I've heard a lot about how powerful it is, but have never played it, so I don't know exactly what it would replace (or even how to use it), but probably things like Chandra, Huntmaster, and Reveler.
Playing against Jace, counterspells sound great in game 1. Bolt can deal with it if it Brainstorms or ticks down. And, as a four-drop, you can try to go under it, building up a decent board and playing the tempo game. Postboard things could get awkward. I've been trying to board out most counters to improve topdecks against Midrange and Control, and we don't have too many other answers to Jace. If you deploy too many threats, Verdict gets you. Deploy too few, Jace bounces one and builds card advantage, or Gideon of the Trials locks it down. I think the UW matchup just got worse.
BBE I could actually see out of the side against Midrange and Control (actually, it's kind of funny how our four-drop slot is a lot like Jund's, but in the board). I know you and I both cut most counters against such decks, so our deck wouldn't actually have that many misses. BBE into Goyf, Blood Moon, a cantrip, or even Bolt isn't bad. And if you hit something you don't want to cast (EE), I believe it goes back in with the rest of the exiled cards.
If you wanted to add both collar and disdainful you could cut rejection and seas so you could keep flashfreeze (I like it a lot btw).
I'm partial to Seas, not because I've seen it do all that much, but it is usable in so many matchups! Affinity, Eldrazi, Tron, Shadow, Jeskai, UW, BGx, Burn, and Titanshift! That is a lot of versatility. Of course, if I find it doesn't really do much (or as Lemonbuster mentioned, I end up with too much land hate), it'll get cut again.
Just try to remember with curator it's a cantrip first and a threat second.
This is definitely a mindset I need to get into. I've held onto Curator for probably much longer than I should.
Have you tried clique here? In conjunction with counters it really enhances a permission suite IMO, and tutoring for it on a critical turn is great.
I'm not sure I have ever cast Clique actually. I really should try it sometime soon. I'll try to get on that once I get Collar down. Tutoring for permission (when there aren't counters in the yard for Snap to do the trick) sounds handy.
It stands out to me that you only have one Revelry and an EE to deal with RIP. I'm too scared to run without two Revelry myself. The cards just really good against us.
Do you deal with RIP often? I don't remember the last time I saw one. I come across Relic just about every League though. I don't think many people are running RIP these days. Mostly UW or the odd Affinity deck. The second Revelry might work its way back in though. It is really good.
I also really like forked bolt here and have argued for it much in the past but with traverse I think I would always give the nod to tarfire. Unless forked bolt was in the board.
I am a huge fan of Forked Bolt. When it is bad, it is usually the first "Bolt" to go postboard, but it is often a house. Tarfire is almost always better for Goyf/Traverse, but we don't have too many Sorceries. I think the Baubles and first Tarfire do enough to let one Forked in. If I run a seventh burn spell, it would probably be second Tarfire.
In a deck where you already have moon clogging up the board space, most of us are already compromising on graveyard hate to do so. That makes every sideboard slot incredibly valuable, meaning narrow counters arnt going to be as big of a contributor as one you can bring in to a diverse array of matchups. This is why Deprive has been my go to complement to mana leak in this deck. I would say at least 80% of the time it is functionally counterspell. We always miss land drops so replaying a land the next turn is usually not even a draw back. I often use it on my turn to generate a mana (net loss of one mana for counterspell? Wow) when opponents try to disrupt my combat step with removal. Sure, the land bounce can hurt occasionally, but nothing makes a counterspell worse than being dead in hand or not even worth bringing in to matchups where you need another counter desperately. Deprive never misses and comes in whenever I need more permission. I love it.
This actually never occurred to me. I am doing that immediately. I'll miss paying less for Rejection, and the second mana being Blue might hurt, but that is an amazing point.
Edit: On the graveyard hate portion of this quote, sideboard space is exactly why I went straight to Anger for grave hate. It doesn't come in against many of the most popular decks (a characteristic shared by Ravenous Trap), but it is also a sweeper, which means it is coming in against just about every creature-heavy deck, and definitely all of the Tribal ones. I'd love to replace Trap with something else, but I'm not sure I want 2 Anger. That might be a little much on my tempo and mana. I don't want to cut Pyroclasm, and space issues makes me think that having 4 sweepers (2 Anger, Pyro, EE) is going too far. I like that Trap does at least something against Storm, but I don't want to have dedicated graveyard hate.
Are there any cards we can run that perform like grave hate, but are a bit more versatile (Rakdos Charm for example)? Or maybe deal with graveyard decks through some other angle? Or, should I go back to not having real hate (but keeping Anger), and just improve other matchups at the cost of Dredge, Living End, and Hollow One?
I think the mainboard is pretty standard for what people seem to be running. I'm trying out Curator (as inspired by Lemonbuster), but haven't played with it enough to have much of an opinion.
In the sideboard, I recently put in some graveyard hate and Spreading Seas. I want more game against yard decks, and Spreading Seas does work against a lot of decks, so I'm giving it another shot.
I want Basilisk Collar in the board. I'm thinking of dropping Rejection and Flashfreeze for Collar and a Disdainful Stroke. I would just cut Rejection for Collar because Collar covers most of those matchups, but I don't like the idea of making my Gx Tron matchup strictly worse than it is. Disdainful Stroke is worse than Rejection (mostly; it costs more and can't hit O-Stone, but it hits Thragtusk) there, but at least it's something. The only matchup that I want Flashfreeze in but don't want Stroke is Burn, which is generally great, and I'll have Collar, so I think it balances out nicely.
Anyone have better ideas for my sideboard configuration?
I think your point about putting a Collar on Snapcaster alone may have just convinced me. That sounds fantastic. And messing with combat against creature decks. I was thinking about it mostly to fight Eldrazi and the like, but you are right. It is much more versatile.
Edit: You mentioned boarding in Collar against Abzan because they don't have Kommand. Is that why it isn't included as coming in against Grixis Shadow? I guess they can Denial it too, but it seems really strong if it goes unanswered. Of course, we also need a threat to stick, but I find I usually lose because a threat that gets past removal (usually Mandrills) is outclassed by their threats.
I have a couple questions/comments about how you board.
Against Living End, does Bojuka Bog come down quickly enough? I understand that the goal is to Traverse for it, so you end up with 4 pieces of graveyard hate, but how soon do you usually have Delirium? Curator definitely helps, but I haven't played enough with it to know by how much.
On Storm, is boarding in Basilisk Collar even worth it? It slows down the Empty kill, but there are plenty of ways to stop that. On getting out of Grapeshot range, Grapeshot can be Remanded and flashed back. Life gain can make the kill harder for them to assemble, but if you are actually safe, the Storm player is out of life from all the damage you did.
I recently threw Roast back in the board because I want more ways to kill fatties. Hoping it does work. Also, promo Roast is gorgeous.
I also might try fitting Collar into the board because it sounds great, but space is always tight.
I think my problem with Reveler against Shadow decks stems from the time when Death's Shadow Jund first became a big player. I really don't like Reveler against that deck. They play way to heavily to the board, and almost always have a massive fatty we need to deal with. I don't think drawing a bunch of cards is how we beat that deck.
GDS is definitely a different beast, and drawing a bunch of cards is good there. I did board in Reveler against them, but it wasn't long until I cut Reveler from the board. GDS still has a lot of fatties (not as consistently due to a lack of Traverse), but I think Reveler might be worth it here. My problem with it against GDS is to play towards Reveler, we need more ways to answer fatties. I've faced down Tasigur with Reveler stuck in my hand, and I hated every second of it. And they can slow down Reveler with Spell bomb.
As far as clocking speed, GDS>Jund>Abzan>Jeskai(probably faster than this spot with Geist)>hard control. The faster and more consistently Midrange decks can clock, the less I like Reveler postboard. I think GDS is past that threshold.
Logic Knot is definitely very strong (and something I need to play around more in counter wars, but I still like counters against Blue decks. Against UB counter and discard decks, I've been leaning towards treating them like BGx and boarding out counters to hedge against the discard, but I do think counters are good against Control, especially when their curve goes so high. Of course, this becomes irrelevant in your BBE point, but I'll get there soon.
I agree with this to an extent. Huntmaster is definitely not great against Midrange/Control. It is hard to land against anyone with decent counters, and dies to a lot of things. Of course, it still generates a non-zero amount of card advantage in those matchups, which is kind of exactly what we want. Huntmaster does amazing amounts of work for me against creature decks (I think that is mostly how it earns its spot in the board), so having the extra threat for these matchups seems worth it to me. Of course, Walkers like Chandra will be better here, but gumming up the board might be even better due to BBE on the opposing side. I haven't played against it much, but I like how Huntmaster fares against BBE. If you want more action for these matchups, I think it is easy to defend cutting Huntmaster. I still like having such a versatile threat though.
Counters are probably the reason our combo matchups are so strong. You like counters against Aggro? I've been trimming them to make room for more removal. And a lot of those decks (Humans and other Vial/Cavern decks) basically invalidate counters. Depending on the matchup, some Snares and/or Leaks stay, and it's usually easy to justify keeping a Denial or two, but I don't like them that much. I'd much rather have removal when possible, since it deals with the creature after it hits the board, and Aggro is good at hitting the board early, making counters drawn after the first few turns dramatically worse.
Of course, Aggro/Combo is a different story. Counters are great against those decks. Hollow One not included because it is just so fast.
I'm on the fence with Obsession against Aggro. When your attacks are okay, it is straight fire. When you are on the backfoot, it is much worse. I guess the +1/+1 is still something, but I don't like it when I have to block. It does make turning the corner easier. I think I'll look into keeping it more against them.
I still like it against Midrange and Control, as long as I'm not leaving out threats for it. It does perform like Counters against Discard decks (really bad once they shred your hand) but it is like a threat they have to answer in itself. As long as it connects once, it replaces itself, and I'm happy with that.
YES! I love that you are trying this! I would be totally down to sideboard into BBE if I agreed on the counters against Control point. I still don't quite agree on counters being bad against Control, but it lets you support BBE, so I'm excited to hear about how it goes. I'm absolutely in favour of it against Midrange though. If I didn't like Huntmaster so much, I'd probably be on the same plan for Midrange. One concern I have for the BBE plan postboard is that we cut lands for cantrips. This is great for Delver decks, but not so good for BBE Midrange. BBE ignores lands, but will cast a Bauble, Visions, or Scour if it sees them. Of course, card advantage is card advantage, but the tempo from BBE hitting Goyf, Knucks, and other powerful cards will show up less often due to our density of cheap and less impactful spells.
With that, sell me on BBE over Huntmaster (even just one copy). How do you board against Aggro decks? You have artifact hate for Vial decks and Affinity, but how would you board for something like a Naya BBE Zoo deck? I'm interested in how your 75 deals with the kinds of decks that Huntmaster can be a big help against (not that Huntmaster isn't great against Vial decks and at least decent against Affinity). I'm worried you don't have enough cards against Aggro with BBE. Do you think BBE will help against Aggro? I've been under the assumption that the body isn't great there, but could be totally wrong.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
I like sweepers against Affinity. I guess I just don't board it in because the other sweeper I run is Pyroclasm (and EE technically), which is cheaper and always made more sense to me since Anger is comparatively slower. I guess Anger should come in too. I never really considered it. Do you find your three mana sweepers come down soon enough against Affinity?
I never ran more than one Curiosity, so I don't think I would go up on Obsession without being extremely impressed. It definitely looks better with Shoal, but I think it is a fine one-off even without. Obsession on Delver is certainly great, but I would be happy to stick it on a Mandrills due to being a Trampling 5/5. Those are great stats, and trample with that much power will almost always draw us a card.
The Traverse shell definitely can't abuse it as easily as Shoal would, but I would play it like I did Curiosity. Hold it until you are confident that you can connect at least once, making it kind of a bad cantrip (a cantrip that you can't cast until your threat is temporarily safe). Then, you have a must answer threat, after already getting your 1-for-1. If they don't answer it then, you probably won the game (or they are playing something linear and you didn't hit enough disruption, but it helps to draw into gas, so there is that).
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Having sweepers with different names is good for the Humans matchup. And, as Mikefon said, Anger has some extra points against Company decks, which love their recursive threats.
I think you can easily justify having a 1/1/1 Anger/Firespout/EE split.
@Mikefon: That's fair. I'm probably going to have to jam it now and see for myself if Curiosity effects (or, I guess, almost strictly better Curiosity effects) are good again.
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I like the look of your list. Moving more removal (maindeck Roast) makes room for more haymakers in the board, and I kind of want to cut a Bauble and Curator to copy a bit of your spell configuration. I might have to do that and try Curator again later. I don't really want to go down a Bauble for Obsession without going up an Instant/Sorcery.
How is your Big Mana matchup? I've been swimming in Tron, and I think you might need more cards for it. Although, I like Obsession and the counters in the board for it. I think there is going to be a lot of Big Mana coming up (might even be here already), and I want to respect (and subsequently destroy) it.
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On Display of Dominance, I kind of like it. I'm inclined to think I just want more haymakers in the board, but I could see a slot for it. I like the pseudo-Hexproof mode a lot, because that is a common Simic Charm mode in those matchups. Kill a walker if you need to, or save a threat. Unfortunately, abilities still get through.
The first mode alone is probably too niche. With the second mode countering removal, I think it could actually be a defensible choice.
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I know they run a bunch of removal, but we have a lot of threats postboard, and aren't winning without one on board. Collar means that we can't lose the race, so they have to remove every threat we hit. I think I like it here, even though the deathtouch is basically irrelevant (although shooting Reveler at the end with Huntmaster was certainly satisfying).
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I love Dismember. I haven't run a 75 without a copy for a while. I've never had the courage (or space) to put the second in the main, although it was in the side for Eldrazi for a while. Keep us posted on how often that is a liability. I like Melody as a topdeck, and your bomb strategy makes sense, but I never found it useful. Definitely give it a shot though, because I could have just had a skewed sample. I stopped testing it because I wanted to play cards that I knew were good.
I was wrong. I just checked my sideboard sheet, and I've been cutting Scours and Bolts against UW (plus Snag and a land), which I actually don't like either with them running Jace. I'm gonna want burn spells. I do like the idea of a non-creature bomb to punish them, but watch out for Detention Sphere when you slam your Jace. Do you guys think Keranos would shine in the Jace meta? They can fate-seal you to dodge the Bolt, but then you get to draw. And we don't run many lands, so having two "Bolts" in a row seems likely.
What are you Surgicaling against UW? Path? UW has been running Gideon of the Trials lately, which locks down our first threat, getting us to overextend into a verdict, and closes out the game. I've been trying to keep Dismember as an answer when they start getting in with it. I don't think I've ever had it come up postboard, so I'm not sure how viable that plan actually is.
It is really swingy. Land a 5/6 Goyf (or just 4/5 if they don't hit Angler) and you are favoured. If you don't land Goyf, usually they take it due to having a good chance of putting down an early Hollow One or two, in addition to finding Angler with all the draw. Either turn on discarded Phoenixes (which we basically just can't deal with preboard), and Flameblade Adept is extremely hard to block (unless you are interested in just never turning the corner and dying to aforementioned phoenixes).
I treat it a lot like Dredge. Counter the enabling discard if you can, land a threat, clock and continue to disrupt. The games in which I had Goyf were usually won; the ones in which I didn't were usually lost. Burning Inquiry can totally screw us, but random discard occasionally screws them. And watch out for Blood Moon postboard if you can! Postboard I actually board out a lot of my counters because I have answers in the board (Grudge, Revelry, Roast, Collar, sweepers for the little buggers, and the Ravenous Trap which is probably going to be cut from my board soon), and they are fast enough that I don't want Spell Snare or Mana Leak stuck in my hand after a bunch of big spells resolve. I keep a couple Denials (might try to keep all of them) because it is great. Hard countering Fatal Push almost makes up for potentially being stuck in hand.
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Melody is a 2CMC Blue card though. Are there any matchups in which you want it and Shoal postboard? That is a non-zero benefit.
I am stoked to see how the meta shapes up. I'm thinking Jace decks everywhere, and then linear decks to laugh at Jace.
My Traverse list now has Deprive and Basilisk Collar in the board. Basilisk Collar has seemed really good in the ~10 tournament practice matches that I ended up boarding it in for. Lifelink is the real deal. Deathtouch is great against fatties. Depending on the meta though, I might go back to Chart and Shoal for a little while (probably should be testing both lists anyways), because I expect it to be better (in game one at least) against linear decks.
Since Ashton brought up the topic of graveyard hate, let's talk about it a bit more. Does anyone actually like grave hate against BR Hollow One? I've found Anger to be decent (deals with Bloodghast and Phoenix, while taking out any Adepts that are lying around), but don't really like Ravenous Trap here. I've been testing the matchup a bit more the last few days, and found exiling their graveyard actually doesn't do all that much. It can stop them from Delving for a while, or deal with the first few recursive threats, but they can still get you with Adept and Hollow One (or refill the yard). I imagine similar graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt) would be about as bad. Which means my non-Anger hate is basically there for Dredge and Living End (I guess Goryo's Vengeance, but that is even rarer). Which makes me want to go back to ignoring graveyard hate. I like Anger, but it comes in for WAY more matchups. Most graveyard decks can also be slowed by Shoal, so I don't think we want hate with it, but without Shoal, I wanted a bit more game against Dredge and Hollow One. I'm thinking the hate isn't worth it. Collar also seems good there, so that is at least something. And the extra slot in the board can go to fighting the presumably upcoming Midrange and Control decks. Thoughts?
Edit: How are you all going to approach the UW matchup now? That I think will be our absolute worst one. Verdict, Jace, Gideon, Path, and all that other removal. I've been on the "cut most counters, maximize threat density, and slog through it" plan, but I'm thinking it won't take much more than a resolved walker or two to be lights out, so maybe tempo could be better? I just don't know how we should fight a deck with Jace and the best removal possible against us.
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In the side, it's probably a Midrange powerhouse. I've heard a lot about how powerful it is, but have never played it, so I don't know exactly what it would replace (or even how to use it), but probably things like Chandra, Huntmaster, and Reveler.
Playing against Jace, counterspells sound great in game 1. Bolt can deal with it if it Brainstorms or ticks down. And, as a four-drop, you can try to go under it, building up a decent board and playing the tempo game. Postboard things could get awkward. I've been trying to board out most counters to improve topdecks against Midrange and Control, and we don't have too many other answers to Jace. If you deploy too many threats, Verdict gets you. Deploy too few, Jace bounces one and builds card advantage, or Gideon of the Trials locks it down. I think the UW matchup just got worse.
BBE I could actually see out of the side against Midrange and Control (actually, it's kind of funny how our four-drop slot is a lot like Jund's, but in the board). I know you and I both cut most counters against such decks, so our deck wouldn't actually have that many misses. BBE into Goyf, Blood Moon, a cantrip, or even Bolt isn't bad. And if you hit something you don't want to cast (EE), I believe it goes back in with the rest of the exiled cards.
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I'm partial to Seas, not because I've seen it do all that much, but it is usable in so many matchups! Affinity, Eldrazi, Tron, Shadow, Jeskai, UW, BGx, Burn, and Titanshift! That is a lot of versatility. Of course, if I find it doesn't really do much (or as Lemonbuster mentioned, I end up with too much land hate), it'll get cut again.
What do you all think of going 2 Moon, 1 Seas?
This is definitely a mindset I need to get into. I've held onto Curator for probably much longer than I should.
I'm not sure I have ever cast Clique actually. I really should try it sometime soon. I'll try to get on that once I get Collar down. Tutoring for permission (when there aren't counters in the yard for Snap to do the trick) sounds handy.
Do you deal with RIP often? I don't remember the last time I saw one. I come across Relic just about every League though. I don't think many people are running RIP these days. Mostly UW or the odd Affinity deck. The second Revelry might work its way back in though. It is really good.
I am a huge fan of Forked Bolt. When it is bad, it is usually the first "Bolt" to go postboard, but it is often a house. Tarfire is almost always better for Goyf/Traverse, but we don't have too many Sorceries. I think the Baubles and first Tarfire do enough to let one Forked in. If I run a seventh burn spell, it would probably be second Tarfire.
This actually never occurred to me. I am doing that immediately. I'll miss paying less for Rejection, and the second mana being Blue might hurt, but that is an amazing point.
Edit: On the graveyard hate portion of this quote, sideboard space is exactly why I went straight to Anger for grave hate. It doesn't come in against many of the most popular decks (a characteristic shared by Ravenous Trap), but it is also a sweeper, which means it is coming in against just about every creature-heavy deck, and definitely all of the Tribal ones. I'd love to replace Trap with something else, but I'm not sure I want 2 Anger. That might be a little much on my tempo and mana. I don't want to cut Pyroclasm, and space issues makes me think that having 4 sweepers (2 Anger, Pyro, EE) is going too far. I like that Trap does at least something against Storm, but I don't want to have dedicated graveyard hate.
Are there any cards we can run that perform like grave hate, but are a bit more versatile (Rakdos Charm for example)? Or maybe deal with graveyard decks through some other angle? Or, should I go back to not having real hate (but keeping Anger), and just improve other matchups at the cost of Dredge, Living End, and Hollow One?
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4x Tarmogoyf
3x Hooting Mandrills
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Savage Knuckleblade
1x Curator of Mysteries
2x Spell Snare
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Mana Leak
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Tarfire
1x Forked Bolt
1x Vapor Snag
1x Simic Charm
1x Dismember
4x Serum Visions
3x Thought Scour
2x Traverse the Ulvenwald
3x Mishra's Bauble
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Steam Vents
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Destructive Revelry
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Flashfreeze
3x Blood Moon
1x Spreading Seas
1x Pyroclasm
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Roast
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
I think the mainboard is pretty standard for what people seem to be running. I'm trying out Curator (as inspired by Lemonbuster), but haven't played with it enough to have much of an opinion.
In the sideboard, I recently put in some graveyard hate and Spreading Seas. I want more game against yard decks, and Spreading Seas does work against a lot of decks, so I'm giving it another shot.
For reference, how I sideboard against popular decks with my current 75 (the Traverse tab).
I want Basilisk Collar in the board. I'm thinking of dropping Rejection and Flashfreeze for Collar and a Disdainful Stroke. I would just cut Rejection for Collar because Collar covers most of those matchups, but I don't like the idea of making my Gx Tron matchup strictly worse than it is. Disdainful Stroke is worse than Rejection (mostly; it costs more and can't hit O-Stone, but it hits Thragtusk) there, but at least it's something. The only matchup that I want Flashfreeze in but don't want Stroke is Burn, which is generally great, and I'll have Collar, so I think it balances out nicely.
Anyone have better ideas for my sideboard configuration?
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Edit: You mentioned boarding in Collar against Abzan because they don't have Kommand. Is that why it isn't included as coming in against Grixis Shadow? I guess they can Denial it too, but it seems really strong if it goes unanswered. Of course, we also need a threat to stick, but I find I usually lose because a threat that gets past removal (usually Mandrills) is outclassed by their threats.
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Against Living End, does Bojuka Bog come down quickly enough? I understand that the goal is to Traverse for it, so you end up with 4 pieces of graveyard hate, but how soon do you usually have Delirium? Curator definitely helps, but I haven't played enough with it to know by how much.
On Storm, is boarding in Basilisk Collar even worth it? It slows down the Empty kill, but there are plenty of ways to stop that. On getting out of Grapeshot range, Grapeshot can be Remanded and flashed back. Life gain can make the kill harder for them to assemble, but if you are actually safe, the Storm player is out of life from all the damage you did.
I recently threw Roast back in the board because I want more ways to kill fatties. Hoping it does work. Also, promo Roast is gorgeous.
I also might try fitting Collar into the board because it sounds great, but space is always tight.
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GDS is definitely a different beast, and drawing a bunch of cards is good there. I did board in Reveler against them, but it wasn't long until I cut Reveler from the board. GDS still has a lot of fatties (not as consistently due to a lack of Traverse), but I think Reveler might be worth it here. My problem with it against GDS is to play towards Reveler, we need more ways to answer fatties. I've faced down Tasigur with Reveler stuck in my hand, and I hated every second of it. And they can slow down Reveler with Spell bomb.
As far as clocking speed, GDS>Jund>Abzan>Jeskai(probably faster than this spot with Geist)>hard control. The faster and more consistently Midrange decks can clock, the less I like Reveler postboard. I think GDS is past that threshold.
Everyone's thoughts?
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