Yeah, I think he's mainly just the first player to have finally capitalized on what we've known since we started testing Kitesail Freebooter - Humans is a real deck now. He also managed to avoid a lot of tough matchups. I'm not convinced that Aether Vial is the optimal build, but it certainly has its merits. I think we're right there with the Bant Black shell and the current work being done on the 5C Collected Company shell. I haven't had much time the last several days, but I've had it on my to-do list to try out the 5 Color CoCo list with headminerve's mana base suggestion, which would look like this:
EDIT: The Primer has been updated with new information and updated decklists
7 fetch lands? Might be right because I often draw a ton of lands in the mid to endgame. I think the aether vial version is extremely good if you open with vial. This is the same with mono white dnt. However we have a problem with coco in a mirror with 4 meddling mage because they can name coco and path. I like the fact that the vial list can have all humans in the sb which doesn't decrease our creature count
Collins Mullens is a fried of mine but he didn't tell me that he picked up humans. I am not sure about aether vial..I have to test it. I believe that the coco build brings more creatures on the table but to flash in a freebooter eot followed by a mm seems strong. I saw that list on YouTube two weeks ago. I believe that you want a tireless tracker main in such a list. I think this deck is also good in the humans mirror since they can name humans
I think it is hard to say if lieutenant turn two is the right play here. I drew additional humans afterwards and I think it is better to play a lieutenant later on a board full of humans (which I did in this game). In regards to naming with Meddling Mage, I think that you are correct about searing blaze but not about lightning bolt. Lightning Helix helps them in a race like against burn much more than lightning bolt. That was my reasoning. I still think that in this situation I was forced to play Meddling mage because I assumed that I have to race faster which I think is more likely if I play the lieutenant on a board full of creatures.
Btw. Do you miss your Sin collectors main? Two weeks ago I went 5-0 with your list playing 4 Freebooter, 2 MM, 3 Sin Collector, 2 Anafenza.
I just think that Meddling Mage totally underperformed for me at Charlotte. I am not a fan of it, so I am searching for a powerful substitution, which is probably 7th mana dork and another 3 drop (Thalia, Tracker). I think that Mantis Rider is great in aggro matchups because we can attack with evasion and hold back a blocker. I didn't have any problems with the mana so far and he came down often on turn 2 ,but you are correct that the mana base is scary. Did you ever try Reflecting Pool?
I was able to test a bit more today. I tried Tireless Tracker and he was insane. I definitely want to try 2-3 main. Even with only 4-5 Fetchlands the clues are insane in the midgame. I tested against Burn, Affinity, Merfolk, and Infect (So basically the aggro meta).
I tried a 4C version and a 5C version but I am not sure which one is better:
The Mantis Rider overperformed in my testing so far but stresses the mana requirements a bit more. However, I played several games against Merfolk on Spreading Seas and it wasn't hard to cast it through that.
Both games were T1 Nettle Sentinel, T2 two elves one of them Heritage Druid into Ezuri, which I pathed. But he followed with another Ezuri in G1 and with Elvish Archdruid in G2 followed by Card of Calling into Ezuri. Basically he had about 50 by T5 the latest in both games. I guess he just had the perfect draw.
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
What was taken out of the main for RIP? I have found Delver to be a matchup where we really don't want to lose any creature density. RIP isn't that necessary since we can just bounce or kill their delve creatures. And our creatures are too big for them unless they have the perfect flurry of removal in the first couple of turns.
So I think I took out Mayor, because of their spot removal. He later told me that he cannot beat Rest in Peace. Therefore, I believe it is really good to stop their Snapcaster. In G3 he had 2 Snaps and 3 Bolts in their opener, followed by several additional removal. I drew only 1 Coco but that got a Negate.
As someone who runs 3x Negate in my Bant Red list, I will say that feeling the need to hold open mana is very much a feel-bad and very much goes against what the deck wants to do. The reason the Sin Collector/Freebooter plan is so promising is the fact that we can be proactive about hitting the spells we care about without having to slow ourselves down to hold mana open. Counters also make it tough to maintain creature density in matchups where we can't side out all of our Paths. What kinds of spells are you looking to hit with counter spells that can't be hit otherwise?
Also, I saw Stony Silence played on camera in a Bant Black humans lists (round 3, game 3) and it was awful for the same reasons I've been saying in this thread. I really don't think it's something I would want to run in one of these lists because the issues that happened in that game are the exact same issues I have seen pop up when other aggressive creature decks try running the card. It's too slow and grinds the deck to a halt and it wasn't even relevant for several turns (even in Affinity, they have plenty of draws that don't care about it). By the time it was relevant, the opponent should have been at least nearly dead if not completely dead. Instead, thanks to how slow the deck was due to the card, the opponent had plenty of time to draw their outs and take over the game. I think that, especially in modern, people get way too caught up in hating out other decks and not enough about keeping their own gameplan intact. As we see in that game, it turns out that just getting the opponent dead is a whole lot better than worrying about them hitting 12 mana and getting a 6/6 Walking Ballista.
The longer I think about it, I think you are actually right about Counterspells. It is difficult to hold up mana. I think therefore Sin Collector is preferable. I however think I want 1 Stony Silence in addition to 2 Kataki or a 3rd Kataki. I think the Affinity matchup is too close and Affinity is quite successful right now.
What is your current list? Would you mind also to share your RedBant List again?
So my report from SCG Charlotte. I went 5-4 but I had a lot of very close games
Round 1: BW Token /Gideons --> Win (2:1). That matchups is very close because they have a ton of removal, blockers and planeswalkers.
Round 2: Feature Match against Jadine Klomparens on Jund --> Win (2:0). In both games, I had to mulligan to 6 but I could start with T1 Dork into T2 Anafenza in Game 1 and had enough pressure in Game 2
Round 3: Elves (Loss 0:2). This is a terrible matchup. They are just faster. I had 0 chance even with multiple Path to Exile. I think that Eidolon of the Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist could help in this matchup, but not a lot.
Round 4: Affinity (Loss 1:2). I wasn't able to find my sideboard cards. Game 1 he kills me with exactly 10 infect (he would have died the next turn). Game 2 I totally destroy him and game 3 I have an 7 with 3 Freebooters..so I mulligan and draw the same hand again with 3 Freebooters.
Round 5: Valakut (Loss 1:2). That game was sad. Game 1 I am on the play and I keep a very mediocre hand with 4 lands, dork, thalias lieutenant and reflector mage but he mulligans to 5. T1 I play dork and pass. He plays a basic mountain. He has also red sleeves so I assume that he is on burn. T2 I draw Meddling Mage, which is a better two-drop in this situation compared to Thalia's Lieutenant. So I think to name Lightning Bolt or Lightning Helix. I name Helix and on his second turn he goes forest, prismatic omen. Later he survives by bolting my Champion...so that was pretty unlucky.
Round 6: Burn (Win 2:1). Very close games. Didn't draw my sideboard cards.
Round 7: Ponza (Win 2:1). Got Angered in Game 2 but was too fast for him in Game 3. Sin Collector is a good card here.
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
Round 9: GR Titan Breach (Win 2:0). Played against a friend. Meddling Mages on Bolt and Anger do some work but later he just kills both with Valakut triggers. However, I had enough pressure to win.
Overall, I think that the deck should go in all Tempo. That means I will test the 5-color version with Mantis Rider and 4 Freebooter main going forward. The sideboard should then have spells like Unified Will to play the tempo game. I also think I need 1-2 Stony Silence and 2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric in the board.
I did not like the Meddling Mages main and I was not a fan of the Sin Collector sideboard plan.
I've tested just some draws and felt that the deck needs more pressure, maybe bad luck, I don't know, but was weird.
Which version?
Last one.
I'm thinking about to test your SCG list with Unclaimed main and Freebooter board. Looks very solid and Mini Thalia always helped in my LGS.
Are you referring to this? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116202 If you're worried about pressure, this is going to be slower than the Bant Black build (Sin Collector and Abzan Falconer) and 3x Mini Thalia is going to slow you down even more. With Freebooter and Sin Collector available, I don't see any reason to run her; in my testing, actually stealing a spell and having hand information has been much better than providing a small speed bump that slows down your own Companies and Paths. It's a solid list, don't get me wrong, but I don't think the reasoning lines up. I would recommend doing more than a few test draws before coming to conclusions; speed has not been a problem in my ~15-20 games with it so far. I'd be curious to know what exactly these types of draws are and why they're not applying enough pressure.
I heavily disagree that my list from the scg iq is slower compared to the bant black list. In fact it is probably faster because I played 8 mana dorks and much more 3 drops.this is faster compared to freebooter 1/2 and meddling mage. If you see a t3 coco coming you
Definitely won't play Thalia v1.0 turn two. If you do against certain decks they usually kill it immediately. Yes you can be unlucky and they don't but overall I think the speed differences of the bat black lists are marginal while red is truly faster.
Thanks for the write up! I love seeing the variety and versatility of these Humans decks.
Anyways, on my drive into work this morning, I got to thinking about my testing with 5C last night - what things I liked, what I didn't like etc. I really liked the 4th Kitesail Freebooter in the main. I liked not having dead Sin Collectors in the main yet still having it available in the side. I liked having Thalia, Heretic Cathar to help against blockers and occasionally slow down mana. On the downside, while the mana worked and was overall stable and Mantis Rider is a beast, I would like to cut down on color requirements where possible. So with all of that said, I started to try working out in my head how I could apply these learnings to a more refined list. Here's what I'm thinking:
This way we don't have dead cards main and we can still side into the more hateful version side board. Thalia helps us against chump blockers that prove to be a pain. Thoughts?
I like the Thalia's, however I don't know if I want Meddling Mage over Sin Collector against the field. I believe that if you cut disruption like Sin Collector you have to optimize for maximum speed, in which case I think Mantis Rider is the way to go. Anyway I would probably cut one Anafenza for a Abzan Falconer if you stick to that build.
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7 fetch lands? Might be right because I often draw a ton of lands in the mid to endgame. I think the aether vial version is extremely good if you open with vial. This is the same with mono white dnt. However we have a problem with coco in a mirror with 4 meddling mage because they can name coco and path. I like the fact that the vial list can have all humans in the sb which doesn't decrease our creature count
I wouldn't call it "collins" deck. ..I posted that list some days ago..it is basically the deck.
Btw. Do you miss your Sin collectors main? Two weeks ago I went 5-0 with your list playing 4 Freebooter, 2 MM, 3 Sin Collector, 2 Anafenza.
What are your thoughts on 5c with freebooter and mantis rider?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmo4K14U074
I tried a 4C version and a 5C version but I am not sure which one is better:
4C main:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Reflector Mage
2 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Abzan Falconer
Spells:
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
1 Gavony Township
2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric
2 Stony Silence
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Sin Collector
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
1 Auriok Champion
5C Main: This is basically - 1 Mayor of Avabruck, -1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Abzan Falconer, -1 Anafenza, the Foremost, -1 Gavony Township for +4 Mantis Rider and +1 Stomping Ground.
The Mantis Rider overperformed in my testing so far but stresses the mana requirements a bit more. However, I played several games against Merfolk on Spreading Seas and it wasn't hard to cast it through that.
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Reflector Mage
1 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Mantis Rider
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
Lands:
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
Opinions?
Both games were T1 Nettle Sentinel, T2 two elves one of them Heritage Druid into Ezuri, which I pathed. But he followed with another Ezuri in G1 and with Elvish Archdruid in G2 followed by Card of Calling into Ezuri. Basically he had about 50 by T5 the latest in both games. I guess he just had the perfect draw.
So I think I took out Mayor, because of their spot removal. He later told me that he cannot beat Rest in Peace. Therefore, I believe it is really good to stop their Snapcaster. In G3 he had 2 Snaps and 3 Bolts in their opener, followed by several additional removal. I drew only 1 Coco but that got a Negate.
The longer I think about it, I think you are actually right about Counterspells. It is difficult to hold up mana. I think therefore Sin Collector is preferable. I however think I want 1 Stony Silence in addition to 2 Kataki or a 3rd Kataki. I think the Affinity matchup is too close and Affinity is quite successful right now.
What is your current list? Would you mind also to share your RedBant List again?
Round 1: BW Token /Gideons --> Win (2:1). That matchups is very close because they have a ton of removal, blockers and planeswalkers.
Round 2: Feature Match against Jadine Klomparens on Jund --> Win (2:0). In both games, I had to mulligan to 6 but I could start with T1 Dork into T2 Anafenza in Game 1 and had enough pressure in Game 2
Round 3: Elves (Loss 0:2). This is a terrible matchup. They are just faster. I had 0 chance even with multiple Path to Exile. I think that Eidolon of the Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist could help in this matchup, but not a lot.
Round 4: Affinity (Loss 1:2). I wasn't able to find my sideboard cards. Game 1 he kills me with exactly 10 infect (he would have died the next turn). Game 2 I totally destroy him and game 3 I have an 7 with 3 Freebooters..so I mulligan and draw the same hand again with 3 Freebooters.
Round 5: Valakut (Loss 1:2). That game was sad. Game 1 I am on the play and I keep a very mediocre hand with 4 lands, dork, thalias lieutenant and reflector mage but he mulligans to 5. T1 I play dork and pass. He plays a basic mountain. He has also red sleeves so I assume that he is on burn. T2 I draw Meddling Mage, which is a better two-drop in this situation compared to Thalia's Lieutenant. So I think to name Lightning Bolt or Lightning Helix. I name Helix and on his second turn he goes forest, prismatic omen. Later he survives by bolting my Champion...so that was pretty unlucky.
Round 6: Burn (Win 2:1). Very close games. Didn't draw my sideboard cards.
Round 7: Ponza (Win 2:1). Got Angered in Game 2 but was too fast for him in Game 3. Sin Collector is a good card here.
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
Round 9: GR Titan Breach (Win 2:0). Played against a friend. Meddling Mages on Bolt and Anger do some work but later he just kills both with Valakut triggers. However, I had enough pressure to win.
Overall, I think that the deck should go in all Tempo. That means I will test the 5-color version with Mantis Rider and 4 Freebooter main going forward. The sideboard should then have spells like Unified Will to play the tempo game. I also think I need 1-2 Stony Silence and 2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric in the board.
I did not like the Meddling Mages main and I was not a fan of the Sin Collector sideboard plan.
I think the version I want to go with is either 5C or the 4 Freebooter, 2 MM, 2 Anafanza, 2 Thalia V2.0 and hopefully somehow 1 Falconer package.
I heavily disagree that my list from the scg iq is slower compared to the bant black list. In fact it is probably faster because I played 8 mana dorks and much more 3 drops.this is faster compared to freebooter 1/2 and meddling mage. If you see a t3 coco coming you
Definitely won't play Thalia v1.0 turn two. If you do against certain decks they usually kill it immediately. Yes you can be unlucky and they don't but overall I think the speed differences of the bat black lists are marginal while red is truly faster.
Which version?
I like the Thalia's, however I don't know if I want Meddling Mage over Sin Collector against the field. I believe that if you cut disruption like Sin Collector you have to optimize for maximum speed, in which case I think Mantis Rider is the way to go. Anyway I would probably cut one Anafenza for a Abzan Falconer if you stick to that build.