Relics are very good. Creature removals/wraths are very good. Lingering souls are not as much. Surgicals are fine.
Not sure if I'll bring in Memoricide though. And you should probably name Chord of Calling with them.
So my plan is this: -2 Lingering Souls +2 Surgical Extraction
Hey everyone, I am new to this archetype, what do we think of running Marsh Flats in the manabase? I've seen lists that do, and some that don't. What are the advantages of each?
It really is a preference call. When running just pain lands, you take on average 3.5 damage per game. This makes them slightly worse damage wise than Fetches. The reason some of us go without Fetches is because your average T1 play costs you less life and doesn't punish you as much for Thoughtseize. When I had fetches, I almost never fetched a basic (because you need both colors and might as well get them). This would put you at 15 after a T1 Thoughtseize.. ow. With Painlands you are only at 17 and can then play accordingly. I also preferred pain lands because it slightly increased the number of lands that can tap for <C>. Because of this, I have never been stuck with all color sources and not been able to cast TKS and Reality Smasher. The benefit of Fetches is it lets you play Rest for the Weary, You can play it without but it does make the card slightly worse.
Great explanation. I also dislike fetches because my meta plays a lot of paths and GQ.
Wasteland Strangler is amazing in our worst matchups. It is the reason we stand a chance in the linear aggro metagame. People complain about burn and affinity and they want to cut Wasteland Strangler. Don't do this.
This is true IF we can get the Process mechanic going, but this is not always easy against decks like say Elves, Fish, or Affinity. I agree that it is good enough to keep, but I would say that it will only work out if you are committed to the exile and Process game plan.
I have 4 Relics, 2 Claws, 4 Path, 1 Surgical Extraction, and 1 Oblivion Ring main and I STILL can't get it to hit every time, because sometimes I don't draw into sufficient exile effects, and other times I can't get any cards into their yard to get started.
There are also TKS, Sower and Bojuka Bog you can play.
One last edit with food for thought: Anybody think of running some numbers of Bitterblossom? It's another awkward to answer threat that can be used for a supply of chump blockers against aggressive decks and continues to pour out dudes if left unchecked. With Vault and Sorin now being run in lists.. the life loss can be minor impact. Just a thought.
Everyone hates Strangler, but when you get to trigger the ability, it is amazing, especially in our worst matchups. Reshaper doesn't always give you value, especially with so many decks playing Path to Exile nowadays. Also, the colorless <> mana is hard to get on curve unless you increase the number of <> sources, which can be tough. But I agree, Strangler is the worst card. I just don't know what to put in its place.
Wasteland Strangler is amazing in our worst matchups. It is the reason we stand a chance in the linear aggro metagame. People complain about burn and affinity and they want to cut Wasteland Strangler. Don't do this.
I use a ratchet bomb as a catch all, but also use 2 disenchants as well. I imagine chalice would be a huge pain.
I will say that reality smasher is the real deal. I ran 2 in place of a herder and a sower. I wanna put another one in there. I may drop it down to one ulamog and go up to 3 smashers. With b/w being more grindy, Ulamog as a 2 of seems iffy.
My biggest issues is the lack of marshes, I have all the current fetches, but still have trouble from time to time with mana. I also only have 3 shrines but will grab the last on friday before SCG Regionals in Seattle.
I've been on the fence with MD surgical extraction as its been a decent play, but it really is hit and miss. Not sure if I want scarbbling claws, more dismember, or doom blade in it's place. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Shambling Vent
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Black 14
White 12
Colorless 11
This is 25 lands. Note that Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile can kind of fix your mana if you are desperate. Blight Herder adds colorless. Expedition Maps.
Im playing doom blade over go for the throat. Black creatures are non-existent (or they are actively bad).
The fish, tasigur, Bob and rhino all disagree with your assessment that black creatures are actively bad.
While I agree that those cards good and merit removal I would say that Go For the Throat vs. Doom Blade is a meta call. I've taken to running Doom Blade myself, because I don't see that many decks packing scary black creatures anymore (most of the Grixis players have turned to other combinations without black and there's hardly any jund/junk), however, affinity is played heavily in my meta, so Go For the Throat is often blanked in G1, leaving Doom Blade the better option.
I've noticed that several lists have cut 1 Lingering Souls to make room for the new OGW Eldrazi. While I haven't had a chance to test out the new cards I'm skeptical of cutting Lingering Souls, as in my experience no single card has stolen the game as many times as Lingering Souls (supported by one of the pioneers of this deck, who had his win% go from 34% to 70% after adding Lingering Souls). From walling off affinity to dealing with Liliana to just straight out beating my opponent for the win - it has many applications and I'm (almost) never unhappy when I draw into it. I can't see how you'd want to play less than 4.
The 4 creatures listed here are all in our best matchups (They are not good creatures in this context). The matchups are good enough that the change in win rate is not significant. You would be much better vs affinity on the other hand if you make this switch.
I once dropped 1 Lingering Souls, thinking that it is too slow against aggro/burn. However I missed winning with the spirits in grindy matchups so now I cut 1 Oblivion Sower to put the 4th Lingering Souls back. TL;DR: Dont cut Lingering Souls.
I only tutor for ulamog when there are problematic permanents that i need to remove now. We only got 1 ulamog so we don't want to waste it on something unimportant or get it pathed. Often, tutoring for Sower or Herder finishes the game just as fast. I've finished numerous games with Sower getting active Gavony Townships and Raging Ravine.
I don't like 4 Sowers though, 2~3 are good for ramping to Eye and Ulamog mana.
Not sure if I'll bring in Memoricide though. And you should probably name Chord of Calling with them.
So my plan is this: -2 Lingering Souls +2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Vampiric Link
2 Rest for the Weary
2 Disenchant
1 Celestial Purge
2 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
Fetches gives you more plays postboard vs Blood Moon. Also Rest for the Weary at instant speed.
There are also TKS, Sower and Bojuka Bog you can play.
Lingering Souls should be enough and faster.
Wasteland Strangler is amazing in our worst matchups. It is the reason we stand a chance in the linear aggro metagame. People complain about burn and affinity and they want to cut Wasteland Strangler. Don't do this.
Congrats!
Have you found 11 colorless sources enough for 4 TKS and 2 Smasher?
edit:
I just noticed the scary interaction between Reality Smasher and Loxodon Smiter/Wilt-leaf Liege. The blowout is real.
I wouldn't play 3 Eye of Ugin and 4 Lingering Souls in the same deck.
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Shambling Vent
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Black 14
White 12
Colorless 11
This is 25 lands. Note that Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile can kind of fix your mana if you are desperate. Blight Herder adds colorless. Expedition Maps.
The 4 creatures listed here are all in our best matchups (They are not good creatures in this context). The matchups are good enough that the change in win rate is not significant. You would be much better vs affinity on the other hand if you make this switch.
I once dropped 1 Lingering Souls, thinking that it is too slow against aggro/burn. However I missed winning with the spirits in grindy matchups so now I cut 1 Oblivion Sower to put the 4th Lingering Souls back. TL;DR: Dont cut Lingering Souls.
I don't like 4 Sowers though, 2~3 are good for ramping to Eye and Ulamog mana.
All is Dust also kills flipped Jace, Liliana, Bogles, Keranos, Blood Moon, Spreading Seas for that matters. Something that Wraths don't hit.
4 Wasteland Stranglers is the key to not lose to merfolk/elves.