Yeah I agree. I am currently testing a version with Goyfs/Anafenzas over Finks. Tarmogoyf just seems to good not to include.
Except it doesn't fit into our curve at all. Turn 2 you want to be dropping a 4/4 uncounterable Smiter that Liege subsequently buffs into a turn 3 6/6 and then you go to work pounding the opponent. Turn 2 Goyf will be what, 2/3, provided he doesn't just eat a Remand / Leak / Snare / Bolt? Turn 3 he's 3/4, maybe 4/5?
Seems terrible to me. You're giving up a ton of speed and consistency so you can 1-for-1 his hand. By the time you get your big threats out they're not that big (or much of a threat) anymore. Turn 2 Loxodon Smiter into turn 3 Liege is what this deck is all about and you're taking that away from it.
Your manabase is bound to get shoddy as well without the Birds. Why would you ever need 3 Razorverge Thickets when your only turn 1 play requires black mana? What if you open with fetch, fetch, Thicket, Thoughtseize, Qasali, Voice? Are you gonna go down to 15 turn 1 just because you can't afford to fetch a Swamp because you want Qasali or Voice out on turn 2? What if the Thoughtseize subsequently reveals a hand full of Goblin Guides and Lava Spikes? GG on the spot. Are you just gonna throw a fetch out there and not play the Thoughtseize because you can't afford to go to 15 turn 1? Why play it at all then?
I don't know if this is the reasoning behind it, but don't let one day's bad results cloud your judgment on the deck. You lost to combo and Thoughtseize is great against them, but we really need to keep it in the sideboard as it dilutes our main gameplan: full on aggro. Just play Junk if this is the direction you wanna take (and even Junk doesn't seem all that great right now).
Yeah, I was replying to the guy above you, sorry. Pointless to compare Modern cards to Legacy cards.
I agree on Beast Within, if losing the 3 life is such a big problem that you'd rather give your opponent 3 power on the field to do with as he pleases, then your deck has more pressing issues than choosing what removal to run.
No, because Lingering Souls is just too damn good. Most things that Bolt hits, Abrupt Decay hits as well - and more. Having access to 4 Thoughtseizes postboard is massive, and Rhino's Helix effect has turned more than one game around for me.
I would never give up all those things for a turn 2 3/3 cat when I already have a turn 2 4/4 Smiter. Bolt is Bolt, it's amazing, but the tradeoff isn't worth it for me.
I don't really recall this deck running Tidehollow Sculler much, if at all, to begin with.
Remember that we aren't Junk - first and foremost, Liege is an aggro deck. We wanna put a ton of power on the battlefield as soon as possible and overwhelm the opponent.
The deck functions most efficiently when we stick to this basic idea. Discard like Thoughtseize and IOK, while definitely necessary post-board in more than one matchup, dilutes this gameplan.
While Sculler is nice, he's easily removed, doesn't make a huge impact on the game state on its own in terms of ability or power, and doesn't fully utilize the Liege synergy that would normally put him outside of Bolt range if he were GW. Voice, Ooze and Pridemage are all much better at advancing our gameplan.
Except it doesn't fit into our curve at all. Turn 2 you want to be dropping a 4/4 uncounterable Smiter that Liege subsequently buffs into a turn 3 6/6 and then you go to work pounding the opponent. Turn 2 Goyf will be what, 2/3, provided he doesn't just eat a Remand / Leak / Snare / Bolt? Turn 3 he's 3/4, maybe 4/5?
Simple math really.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Yeah, cut 1 Wildwood for a Vault and one Path for an Abzan Charm.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Seems terrible to me. You're giving up a ton of speed and consistency so you can 1-for-1 his hand. By the time you get your big threats out they're not that big (or much of a threat) anymore. Turn 2 Loxodon Smiter into turn 3 Liege is what this deck is all about and you're taking that away from it.
Your manabase is bound to get shoddy as well without the Birds. Why would you ever need 3 Razorverge Thickets when your only turn 1 play requires black mana? What if you open with fetch, fetch, Thicket, Thoughtseize, Qasali, Voice? Are you gonna go down to 15 turn 1 just because you can't afford to fetch a Swamp because you want Qasali or Voice out on turn 2? What if the Thoughtseize subsequently reveals a hand full of Goblin Guides and Lava Spikes? GG on the spot. Are you just gonna throw a fetch out there and not play the Thoughtseize because you can't afford to go to 15 turn 1? Why play it at all then?
I don't know if this is the reasoning behind it, but don't let one day's bad results cloud your judgment on the deck. You lost to combo and Thoughtseize is great against them, but we really need to keep it in the sideboard as it dilutes our main gameplan: full on aggro. Just play Junk if this is the direction you wanna take (and even Junk doesn't seem all that great right now).
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I agree on Beast Within, if losing the 3 life is such a big problem that you'd rather give your opponent 3 power on the field to do with as he pleases, then your deck has more pressing issues than choosing what removal to run.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Avacyn kills all your Spirits, Voices, and dorks.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I would never give up all those things for a turn 2 3/3 cat when I already have a turn 2 4/4 Smiter. Bolt is Bolt, it's amazing, but the tradeoff isn't worth it for me.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Remember that we aren't Junk - first and foremost, Liege is an aggro deck. We wanna put a ton of power on the battlefield as soon as possible and overwhelm the opponent.
The deck functions most efficiently when we stick to this basic idea. Discard like Thoughtseize and IOK, while definitely necessary post-board in more than one matchup, dilutes this gameplan.
While Sculler is nice, he's easily removed, doesn't make a huge impact on the game state on its own in terms of ability or power, and doesn't fully utilize the Liege synergy that would normally put him outside of Bolt range if he were GW. Voice, Ooze and Pridemage are all much better at advancing our gameplan.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Then why run Elspeth and Voice?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
so... is Control dead or not?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki