MTG Salvation

curious to see your list then.

if you have mom in here jst to protect nought, you now have a 3 card combo... which 2 card combos are notoriously bad already in legacy. mom unlike delver/lavamancer/BoB adds nothing on her own. You cant afford that many dead cards in this deck.

JTMS works because he alone can do work. Trinket mage added CA and utility that it grabbed nought AND EE AND Needle AND SDT. you cant afford to have mom and get nothing else of relevance.

U/R has always been a stronger color combination. White doesn't bring many useful answers that cant be found in other colors that are stronger, or more specific to problem matchups for this deck.

White was considered more when aggro was more rampant, and goblins was the deck of decks and merfolk. bringin in peacekeeper and possibly stp in the main. other than that white wont add much.

Torpor orb is better suited in a goblin infested meta and other decks with strong CitP abilities. Its a much stronger card. Otherwise id stick to things like stifle/vision charm that have flexibility outside of dreadnought and sideboard things like Divert/Vision Charm to help combat abrubt decay. spellskite would also work.

play a version that uses stifle + vision charm vision charm works both to get nought into play and save it vs things like ad

Umm, i think the biggest change is more so miracles being a deck. And some people are playing goblins/merfolk but the meta mostly still Delver/maverick/SNT. I still sideboard pithing needle. But havent really changed my list at all. Seems well equipped still.

My friend ran this list to some success at a local tourney. Saying delver/factories were MVP and that dark confidant seems to be the weakest link. I think he went 4-0 the first day, and 3-1 or 2-2 the second day.

Quote from Sparki

20 Instants is a bit low for delver flips would be my first thoughts.

Probably a little. But the Top/Brainstorms can help with that a lot.

I wonder if you would want a 3rd trinket mage over the 3rd lavamancer, as there is so much utility. I feel like 2 isn't enough.

Also, 7 counters seems really low.

Factory really isn't all that good without standstill. And counterbalance recently isn't great if you aren't in a combo heavy meta.

I feel like you have too many different plans, from the tempo(Delver/stifle/waste) to countertop lock control. and slower plays with trinket mage. But you lack the draw engine, or inevitability JTMS/BoB/Standstill to go control.

I dont think maindeck pithing needle is a necessity. There aren't many targets for it right now that absolutely must be answered. JTMS isnt big,nor is countertop, nor vial decks. i guess grisel maybe? but mage -> needle, is really slow in comparison. And with only 7 counters good luck getting it to stick or stopping them pre turn 3.

Also, collar is really nice, but another possible cut, as most creatures you are looking to destroy have < 2 toughness anyhow.

It has its flaws. But the rogue and oops i win factor of a 12/12 can sneak through.

Although Rood has had success with it:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45986

so its definitely viable.

Here's the list i've been trying on cockatrice to some success.

It works really well with early delver/standstill. However i find that lavamancer/jace aren't always enough as far as removal. I added EE back in. It's been alright. But think i may go for MD lightning bolt/GftT. Spot removal seems better in this list now as opposed to board wipe. And EE in general has been too slow.

Top is awesome with Bob/Standstill. However, i think without counterbalance its not nearly as strong. Especially with Delver/Standstill/Bob. I find early turns im not able to use it as frequently as with the inclusion of delver, the deck is less reactive than it use to be and more tempo'ish. I removed it, as later in the game when you can use it, probably be able to find JTMS. I would love to have top, but i was running out of space, and it seemed like the next logical thing to cut. If i had space for it, I would have it.

JTMS. I've liked jace. It's been strong every time I play it. Although occasionally its just a bit slow. In these games though, i dont know that top would've been any better.

I went down to 3x Dreadnought, as with JTMS/Bob/Standstill, i haven't had a hard time finding them. And trying to avoid drawing him in multiples.I rather have to dig for it than find 2+ in my hand.

I also went up to 22 lands to support JTMS + waste. As that 4th land drop is much more critical than with Rood's list.

I don't know if this is any better, but it's what i'm trying out as of now.

Quote from Clarinetist

How viable is a Monu U Dreadstill, or even a U/w dreadstill? You'd ditch the lavamancer vs. bob discussion, add more countermagic/threat removal (echoing truth, maybe?). It seems to me in a metagame dominated by Sneak/Show, the best "counter" is to counter. You still have prime creature removal available via Dismember, and in the case of U/w, you have a lot of splashable options that can protect the stiflenought combo and could potentially be very synergistic with Standstill (the white decree?)/

Thoughts?

The issue with mono blue, is its suffers from the same thing mono blue merfolk does. It is unable to answer everything. And so much is decided in the early turns. You wont ever have as many counters as other decks do threats. And with U you cannot deal with anything that resolves. At least not permanently. A stuck delver/goyf, is going to be problematic.

As far as SNT, I play REB+Spell pierces SB. Game 1 is already winnable as we have as much countermagic, and we also have a big scary threat that comes out just as fast. And then sideboard, our game plan gets stronger. We also however, have CA engines they dont have. I have had a positive combo matchup across the board. If not game 1, game 2/3 are extremely favorable.

As far as white as a splash, it doesn't do anything that the others cant do. You can get cheap artifact/creature removal. But red offers that as well. Firespout/Perish/Virtues Ruin also can be 1 sided wraths. And are cheaper and easier to cast color wise.

Standstill + Decree of Justice was good. Way back when. Now its too slow. And people dont let standstill stick like they use to. The decree becomes far less effective.

The only reason i see right now to run white over Red/Black. is Peacekeeper. But even then, i think the red/black answers are better. And i also include maindeck slots for both these colors. And this only works with JTMS

Quote from Hopo

You most certainly do not have to play it so no need to argue over it. If you wish to bash Probe, at least get some first hand experience with it in a deck like dreadstill for some backup. Or better, don't play it and silently think that you are better then the ones who do.

To me, it has served well. You speak of "some information". In a deck full of very conditional disruption and a potential 2 turn clock, I think "some information" is a bit of an understatement.

In the opening hand it solves the dilemma of whether to go turn 1 Delver or Stifle (or Delver/Lavamancer.) It shows you the window when to play nought and if you need a Trickbind or is Stifle enough. These thing add up over the course of games and of course one cannot see them by goldfishing or just looking through lists.

Obviously Thoughtseize is better if you consider only the getting information part as it comes with disruption, but while Peek is a really ****ty card, a free Peek is not. The difference comes from being free to cast.

There might be a better card for that slot but I see no reason to switch them as long as they are performing they way I expect them to be.

Actually.... I have tested both.... And chose to run neither..... But i did like thoughtseize over Probe from playing. In the end my list is a little different.

-1 Grim Lavamancer (3 has been fine for me, as multiples are underwhelming)
-1 Island
-2 Probe (see previous posts/etc... )

+1 Mountain (Sb mountain is wasteful imo and the mana-base can support the mountain mainboard)

+3 Confidant. (Personal Preference maybe, but i can't run UBr and exclude this guy, he has always been awesome)

I found a 2 of probe to be far too situationally useful or the times you really wanted it (Turn 1!) it wasn't in hand. When i didn't need it... i had it and it was informative... but not as impactful as id have liked.

Been considering of going back down to 3x Standstill + 1 trickbind. I guess it goes back to my old list set-up and the 3/3 BoB/Standstill worked well for me back then. And i always liked having +2 Stifle effects to dreadnoughts. Never felt like i had to save them for the combo that way.

Also, the reason people post stuff and arguments in threads is because if we all simply agreed what was optimal, there would be no need for threads and ideas/opinions, as the optimal list would just be presented and that's the end of it. At least i took the time to explain why i FELT/TRIED thoughtseize was greater than probe in those 2 slots as opposed to giving an ignorant OMFG you're wrong. And I didn't deny its utility, just that in this deck that utility seemed to be less impactful than i'd want it to be.And on top of all that, a lot of deckbuilding gets down to personal preference and playstyle. As when you look at developent of dreadstill there have always been advocate of the control side vs tempo agressive side.

Quote from battozai

both probe and thoughtseize are good and perhaps both should be played
but the reason probe is slightly ebtter is in a deck liek this it is legitimately free ad gets u another card to back up ur combo

thoughtseize costs mana but does allow u to discard a card from ur opponents hand that might otherwise have caused an issue

the reason to run grim lavamancer is it kills those stoneforges,moms, and other 2 costs that yoru opponent needs but even better because ti does kill those it draws out your opponents StP which he then wont have agaisnt ur dreadnaught
so u can bait the stp game 1 which can sometimes single handedly give you the win

That doesn't answer my issue to probe. It gets you your next card... and some information. And unlike other "combo" decks, unless you guys play differently than me..... I dont go for Nought unless i have protection for it. I don't need to know their hand... But if i was going to learn something about their hand, i'd rather strip a problem card.

And on top of that. I rather have thoughtseize against almost any matchups. It would suck to probe SnT and be like oh.... ouch.... hope my top cards a counter... As opposed to TS to not only see their hand, but to guarantee a useful replacement/discard.

As far as free to play. Again im not ever rushed to land nought.... Usually not casting him til i have 3-5 lands in play and just using him as a finisher. The Free to play is less relevant than with other decks using probe.

Quote from Kevinliu

Rodney Hannigan said that probe was very amazing for him at the scg since you can gain a ton of information by just looking at your opponents hand. So he knew when to stick a dreadnought or not and etc, although, it could just be a preference and if so it certainly did work out for Rodney. However, I wouldn't mind playing probe myself to be honest in here, I like gaining additional information.

I feel like probe is such a misleading card. I feel like thoughtseize would be far more effective for seeing their hand... Its like opening a sketchy hand with brainstorm... but less effective. You dont have any choice in the card you draw off it. At least thoughtseize u see their hand... and take something with it.

Just my opinion. but maybe ill have to test it out. Just not going into it on high hopes.

I think the delver includes are great. Will have to swap them in in my list.

Why probe.... it feels like a really bad card....

Quote from sdematt

Bob is an absolute house in this deck. He digs, swings, and eats removal. I'd rather have an STP going to Bob than Dreadnought.

The problem with this deck is the fragility of the setup. You must have 1 of each of a set of 4-of's at the same time, and commit resources over the same turn. Where we're not like RUG is we must have 3-4 lands in play, whereas they only need 2, so deck design constraints have to change. We're also not always on the Wasteland plan because we're so mana hungry.

My only thing is, if you're in UB, you lose a lot of removal in a sense. In RUG, Bolt and such act as removal and reach, whereas our removal is only that, making it a lot less effective, in a sense. In some ways, I think Daze is not where we personally want to be, considering we're trying to ramp mana, and not get behind. I'd almost want to go with Pierces and Snares and Forces instead. Sure, they aren't free (beyond Force), but I think they'd be more effective at what we're trying to do, considering all the Jace, STP, etc. in the meta.

-Matt

UBR gives you removal. ANd how can you say in black we lack removal. If that is bothering you. Run Go for the Throat. Also, in UBr you can use bolt.

Who needs reach when you have a 12/12? if thats not reach... i dont know what is. Also if that plan is failing. Go the ultra control route with JtMS. This isn't a tempo deck. Its control with 2 huge game finishers. Reach is hardly the issue.

As far as finding 1 copy of 2 sets of 4 - ofs. I am personally against Snapcaster in this deck. Its underwhelming. I still think trinket mage is stronger. As it adds the consistency to finding Nought as well as utility grave yard hate and other hate g2/3. As well as collar/top. Top was a stronger find when incluing CB. Also remember this is a control deck.This isn't a fast combo deck. You have many turns to find the combo assisted by brainstorm/JtMS/SDT and fetches. Along w/ bob drawing insane amounts of cards.

I was running a 5-3 split of trickbinds -> noughts. + 3 trinket mages. Using lavamancer for removal and basilisk collar as an additional trinket target.

I agree daze is underwhelming in this deck right now.