Do not forget about snapcaster, as a deck that abuses stifle and brainstorm, it becomes a build worth testing.
I am using it right now and I am just slamming fish. Riptide lab is stupid good with snapcaster/trinket/clique/Lavamancer. I don't see myself running more than 1 however.
I have to test against my combo and aggro buddies still, but anything that stomps fish as good as it did in testing today has got my vote.
It has nothing to do with consistancy. Its a meta call. I feel the control builds are weak vs zoo and other aggro. I believe we will see a resurgence of these decks so statistically, control will do worse.
Jace is a power house though, but without a more appropriate shell, I do not see myself running him as of yet.
Sacher does not play dreadstill. Sacher plays a control deck with dreadnought as a finisher. There is a huge difference worth noting. I am coming back to the archtype, i'v been on break since misstep popped up.
Anything running 1 dreadnought is usually a control variant. I'v decided to start testing another aggro variant. Here we go.
I thinking of picking up this deck and was wondering why builds seem to be using red over black as a second color. Bob alone seems more useful than anything red adds, while black can provide spot removal and sweepers. If lavamancer is primarily for fish, then why not just use llawan? I'd appreciate the advice of people far more experienced with the deck than I.
The debate goes back and forth from red to black. We have a hard time against swarm aggro so firesprout and clasm seem like natural choices. I have tested sweepers from black to much displeasure. Ideally sweepers can really shore up the goblin matchup but when your sweepers require BB (such as black sun or infest) your opponent now just has to keep you off BB game 3.
Il try to Pros and Cons list, though i'm sure some will disagree with my selections.
Red PROS
-Lavamancer turn one eats aggro and merfolk, combined with maindeck collar, he kills almost everything.
-Sweepers are amazing vs zoo,merfolk and goblins.
-Lightning bolt/REB are great spot removal in the above matchups.
Red CONS
-Not alot of cards ran maindeck,with so many good colors to splash I often feel we don't get the milage out of red.
-Removal is limited, You can't really kill Gofy,tombstalker, or other fattys.
-The reach that spells like Lightning bolt provide is often moot when our offensive is a 12/12.
Black PROS
-Dark Confidant is amazing. Theres nothing like him for a control deck. An unforseen bonus is that your opponent sometimes think they can kill you with him so they are apprehensive to swing, at which point you can get rid of him at your leisure and probably kill something else.
-Plague is great vs goblins, and can be used vs merfolk.
-Executioner's capsule maindeck offers spot removal that can be tutored for.
-Hand destruction maindeck can make combo matchups 80/20
-Access to spot removal,Go for the throat,smother,edict,snuff out.
-Has some sweepers, infest,zenith,damnation
Black Cons
-Many cards requires BB, not good when we already want UU for counterbalance.
-Many cards cause life loss, as a control deck this can make aggro matchups harder
-Sweepers are much more conditional and are usually more expensive.
On llawan, her cost and limited use make her very unattractive. Fish pack counterspells like daze and force, the games against fish seldom last more than 5 turns. She becomes a really all in plan, also fish use vial which gets around llawan so your all in plan may be all for not. I have tested her and would never use her. She works against 1 deck and she can be really subpar. You don't need to hardlock the game to win. A well timed pyroclasm can be all you need.
is eater of days oing to be an include in these builds or is it too risky to paly it and get your orb destroyed
Eater is terrible.
lets not forget that, people can destroy the orb in responce to playing the eater and then his ability will trigger. Way to kill yourself with your own creature.
Dreadnaught is cheaper,bigger,better.
Those deck lists discussed in the new card section will never happen.
Lands really depend on your final deck. Do you run blood moon in the board? How often do you want access to all colors? I run bloodmoon, and seldom need all 3 colors so I go with 2 island and 1 plains for my 3 color build.
I do not like Rich Shays list. I am not as good as a player as Rich Shay and so I achieve much better results with decks that I build that support my preferences.
That said, White is now a permanent color in my deck. Looks like your heading down the same road of testing that I went down not too long ago. Post your list and I'll advice where I can.
What are you looking for in black? Are you going wizard trifecta? Bob/trinket/grim?
What are your problem matchups? Whats your meta like?
Let us all say a prayer for topar orb and mental misstep. What does everyone think about misstep?
Ok here are my first thoughts as new phyrexia comes out. Basiclly replacing lavamancer and two arties for 3 misstep and 2 torpor orb
I think this may be enough to win against fish without resorting to lavamancer... I still love the little guy though. The end result will be the ability to counter more important cards while on the play without needing force of will. Torpor is just amazing as it hoses many creatures and is an artifact capable of cheating dreadnaught into play thus enlightened tutor becomes even more useful. And Nodes is now in there because I'm a bad player and I want to test them. More later
Found this list awhile back, I like the idea of having goyf beatdown as well. It seems to make the mana base very dicey. Would keeping it UB with some go for the throats, and some basic islands be a better choice ?
Also is jace totally needed? I'd like to fit a pithing needle maindeck as it can be searched up by trinket and is rarely a dead card. Thanks
I think most are in agreement that keeping your mana base stable is a good thing. Some decks run a more risky manabase to support a for extensive card pool. I think its a matter a preference and metagame. Your idea is sound.
I think there are a few viable flavors of dreadstill currently. You have the classic U/r and U/r/g, then you have the Rich shay type list which utilises jace and peacekeeper, then you have the other random color splash builds like mine. I don't really like the idea of running jace without peacekeeper, or rather I think the synergy is too good to not use. I do not run Jace, and I don't believe I ever would. I find my biggest problem is dealing with resolved beaters like goyf, knight, or tombstalker. Sure Jace buys a turn or two but I don't have many hard counters for creatures and I have no spot removal so he does not work well for me. Your results may vary.
The deck is being tweaked right now (As always). It has not stopped changing for like, the last 45 days of testing.
I am still very unhappy when I play against Junk/Rock. I find my matchups vs affinity,combo, and fish are excellent. This gives me great hope for the deck.
How is everyone faring against Junk? Any advice?
Here is the Version which is laid out in front of me as I type.
I have been reconsidering. A very true statement. Pro's and Con's for both sides of the field.
By B/r/w you mean U/w/r...
In another line of thought, I love your list. I'm on the verge of selling key cards I own to buy into the deck. Maybe U/R as the base (regular stuff with grim+collar as the base)? Who knows.
Key question now: Is enlightened tutor > dark confidant?
It's a matter of confidant's raw CA vs tutor's CQ. SB's in terms of color have substantial pro's and con's.
Lol yeah I missed that, I hereby campaign that Blue retake the B!
Excuse me if the following sounds arrogant...
My list is the result of EXTENSIVE testing. I have tested everyday for the last month. If you look though the last few pages you will see several of my deck lists. My playtest group has been very helpful thoughout the process. What we wanted from the deck was something that could 50/50 fish game 1, 70/30 game two, while not compromising our favored matchups such as combo.
On Bob and black...
I love black as a color. The sideboard cards in black give me delusions of grandeur. In practice however, black SB turned out to be very bad. Engineered plague is not good against merfolk and sweepers are just as good against goblins, possibly better due to coming down turn two, in the case of pyroclasm. Snuff out was a decent answer but didn't help against aggro which is where I needed removal the most. Extirpate is good but soon won't be limited to black (see surgical extraction)
Confidant's CA is awesome. Its a tough choice to not use him. Due to slot restrictions you cannot run Bob and lavamancer. I like to think of Bob as raw power, very unrefined. I felt he made my aggro matches slightly worse. I find him useful against midrange decks, but my plan against them is a bit different.
Lavamancer really shores up our matchup vs aggro and blows out fish. He loves being underneath a standstill and becomes Goku when hes wearing a collar. That being said, enlightened tutor plays well with the deck, heres a list of what it does:
-Grabs top,Counterbalance,Standstill,Dreadnaught,Collar,E.E,
Pithing needle/other SB arties/enchantments
-Shuffles
-Can help CB in a pinch
-With a top in play, gives you cards you need that turn
The whole reason for switching out trinketmage was that it was always too slow for me. It may be that I am a bad player, but many times I see where my opponent is going and trinketmage could not answer fast enough for me. First turn lavamancer, second turn leaving mana open for counters, and tutoring EOFT for either an answer or a collar has always been a star play for me.
I know this is a very convoluted answer but I think its worth being said since the decision to not include bob was not easy.
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I am using it right now and I am just slamming fish. Riptide lab is stupid good with snapcaster/trinket/clique/Lavamancer. I don't see myself running more than 1 however.
I have to test against my combo and aggro buddies still, but anything that stomps fish as good as it did in testing today has got my vote.
Jace is a power house though, but without a more appropriate shell, I do not see myself running him as of yet.
Anything running 1 dreadnought is usually a control variant. I'v decided to start testing another aggro variant. Here we go.
4 Grim lavamancer
2 vendilion Cliques
4 Snapcaster mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket mage
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Lightning bolt
4 Stiffle
1 Trickbind
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensai's Divining Top
Land
1 Academy ruins
1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
Indeed those builds would probably use enlightened tutor. This way you would be able to tutor for nought or orb and assemble him.
The debate goes back and forth from red to black. We have a hard time against swarm aggro so firesprout and clasm seem like natural choices. I have tested sweepers from black to much displeasure. Ideally sweepers can really shore up the goblin matchup but when your sweepers require BB (such as black sun or infest) your opponent now just has to keep you off BB game 3.
Il try to Pros and Cons list, though i'm sure some will disagree with my selections.
Red PROS
-Lavamancer turn one eats aggro and merfolk, combined with maindeck collar, he kills almost everything.
-Sweepers are amazing vs zoo,merfolk and goblins.
-Lightning bolt/REB are great spot removal in the above matchups.
Red CONS
-Not alot of cards ran maindeck,with so many good colors to splash I often feel we don't get the milage out of red.
-Removal is limited, You can't really kill Gofy,tombstalker, or other fattys.
-The reach that spells like Lightning bolt provide is often moot when our offensive is a 12/12.
Black PROS
-Dark Confidant is amazing. Theres nothing like him for a control deck. An unforseen bonus is that your opponent sometimes think they can kill you with him so they are apprehensive to swing, at which point you can get rid of him at your leisure and probably kill something else.
-Plague is great vs goblins, and can be used vs merfolk.
-Executioner's capsule maindeck offers spot removal that can be tutored for.
-Hand destruction maindeck can make combo matchups 80/20
-Access to spot removal,Go for the throat,smother,edict,snuff out.
-Has some sweepers, infest,zenith,damnation
Black Cons
-Many cards requires BB, not good when we already want UU for counterbalance.
-Many cards cause life loss, as a control deck this can make aggro matchups harder
-Sweepers are much more conditional and are usually more expensive.
On llawan, her cost and limited use make her very unattractive. Fish pack counterspells like daze and force, the games against fish seldom last more than 5 turns. She becomes a really all in plan, also fish use vial which gets around llawan so your all in plan may be all for not. I have tested her and would never use her. She works against 1 deck and she can be really subpar. You don't need to hardlock the game to win. A well timed pyroclasm can be all you need.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-04-24&end_date=2011-04-24&event_ID=20
Eater is terrible.
lets not forget that, people can destroy the orb in responce to playing the eater and then his ability will trigger. Way to kill yourself with your own creature.
Dreadnaught is cheaper,bigger,better.
Those deck lists discussed in the new card section will never happen.
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badland
2 Island
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Spell snare
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Pithing needle
1 Engineered Explosives
I do not like Rich Shays list. I am not as good as a player as Rich Shay and so I achieve much better results with decks that I build that support my preferences.
That said, White is now a permanent color in my deck. Looks like your heading down the same road of testing that I went down not too long ago. Post your list and I'll advice where I can.
What are you looking for in black? Are you going wizard trifecta? Bob/trinket/grim?
What are your problem matchups? Whats your meta like?
Ok here are my first thoughts as new phyrexia comes out. Basiclly replacing lavamancer and two arties for 3 misstep and 2 torpor orb
I think this may be enough to win against fish without resorting to lavamancer... I still love the little guy though. The end result will be the ability to counter more important cards while on the play without needing force of will. Torpor is just amazing as it hoses many creatures and is an artifact capable of cheating dreadnaught into play thus enlightened tutor becomes even more useful. And Nodes is now in there because I'm a bad player and I want to test them. More later
4 Scalding tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Mishra's factory
3 Wasteland
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Force of Will
3 Spell pierce
3 mental misstep
2 Daze
1 Trickbind
4 Enlightened tutor
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Torpor Orb
3 pyroclasm
1 Firesprout
3 divert
1 pithing needle
1 relic of progenitus
1 chalice
1 energy flux
1 propaganda
3 Anti-junk cards (Currently Testing, Looking for suggestions)
I think most are in agreement that keeping your mana base stable is a good thing. Some decks run a more risky manabase to support a for extensive card pool. I think its a matter a preference and metagame. Your idea is sound.
I think there are a few viable flavors of dreadstill currently. You have the classic U/r and U/r/g, then you have the Rich shay type list which utilises jace and peacekeeper, then you have the other random color splash builds like mine. I don't really like the idea of running jace without peacekeeper, or rather I think the synergy is too good to not use. I do not run Jace, and I don't believe I ever would. I find my biggest problem is dealing with resolved beaters like goyf, knight, or tombstalker. Sure Jace buys a turn or two but I don't have many hard counters for creatures and I have no spot removal so he does not work well for me. Your results may vary.
I am still very unhappy when I play against Junk/Rock. I find my matchups vs affinity,combo, and fish are excellent. This gives me great hope for the deck.
How is everyone faring against Junk? Any advice?
Here is the Version which is laid out in front of me as I type.
4 Scalding tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Mishra's factory
3 Wasteland
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Force of Will
3 Spell pierce
2 Daze
2 Trickbind
4 Enlightened tutor
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Basilisk Collar
3 pyroclasm
1 Firesprout
3 divert
1 pithing needle
1 relic of progenitus
1 chalice
1 energy flux
1 propaganda
3 Anti-junk cards (Currently Testing, Looking for suggestions)
Lol yeah I missed that, I hereby campaign that Blue retake the B!
Excuse me if the following sounds arrogant...
My list is the result of EXTENSIVE testing. I have tested everyday for the last month. If you look though the last few pages you will see several of my deck lists. My playtest group has been very helpful thoughout the process. What we wanted from the deck was something that could 50/50 fish game 1, 70/30 game two, while not compromising our favored matchups such as combo.
On Bob and black...
I love black as a color. The sideboard cards in black give me delusions of grandeur. In practice however, black SB turned out to be very bad. Engineered plague is not good against merfolk and sweepers are just as good against goblins, possibly better due to coming down turn two, in the case of pyroclasm. Snuff out was a decent answer but didn't help against aggro which is where I needed removal the most. Extirpate is good but soon won't be limited to black (see surgical extraction)
Confidant's CA is awesome. Its a tough choice to not use him. Due to slot restrictions you cannot run Bob and lavamancer. I like to think of Bob as raw power, very unrefined. I felt he made my aggro matches slightly worse. I find him useful against midrange decks, but my plan against them is a bit different.
Lavamancer really shores up our matchup vs aggro and blows out fish. He loves being underneath a standstill and becomes Goku when hes wearing a collar. That being said, enlightened tutor plays well with the deck, heres a list of what it does:
-Grabs top,Counterbalance,Standstill,Dreadnaught,Collar,E.E,
Pithing needle/other SB arties/enchantments
-Shuffles
-Can help CB in a pinch
-With a top in play, gives you cards you need that turn
The whole reason for switching out trinketmage was that it was always too slow for me. It may be that I am a bad player, but many times I see where my opponent is going and trinketmage could not answer fast enough for me. First turn lavamancer, second turn leaving mana open for counters, and tutoring EOFT for either an answer or a collar has always been a star play for me.
I know this is a very convoluted answer but I think its worth being said since the decision to not include bob was not easy.