Familiar rouse does what it does. I mean if we only look at last week, i used it by returning ornathophter. That said ornathopter did a lot, but thats why FR is not a 4-of counterspell is just better sometimes. But being results ordinated is bad, which is the same reason why I would never move daze to the SB. Sure it was bad in those specific matchups, but FNS needs 8 main deck free counterspells. Plus Dredge never has a lot of lands anyway, so I've always liked daze against dredge, and given that was 2 of my 4 match ups, not sure where your saying its bad. Maverick seems like the only bad one
Sticking with mono U, I'm playing this list for weekly legacy. Last Thursday was the first time we did it, and I got third (4 rounds swiss only) only losing to reanimator. Beating Dredge twice (both matches I won game 1, not sure if it was luck, bad pilots, or how this deck is supposed to operate) and Maverick
I see some Pros
It can act as a Mistblade or Deep hours if the ground is halted but you have a flier (so Deep hours 5-X)
It can kill legends, though if Progenitus/emerakul/grissibrand are on the field, how relavant will it be, but it is an out.
Cons'
1U ninjustsu cost is hefty.
Space. We already have space issues as it is
at best I see it as a 2-of in the deck, in place of something, but I feel room is the biggest issue, as there could be better cards, but I think deep hours 5-6 that isn't always a deep hours, but can kill legends, has some usefulness if we find room
So I ran the following list today at a 10-man. Punted in the top 4 against affinity because I forgot about the instant equip of cranial plating. Granted he never had two black the whole match in games 1 and 2, and drew the glimmervoid off the top of the deck, but not blocking with my ornathopter is still bugging me.
a few notes:
The 1 of counterspell package was because I didn't know what to replace mental misstep with.
Granted it was part of the match ups that I faced, but counterspell and spellsnare were the two best counters, with pierce and flusterstorm not being useful at all
As for the sideboard. I knew there was going to be a dredge deck hence the 6 grave hate cards. That being said, I only sideboarded in the Dismembers in my match ups today.
2-1 UW Stoneblade
0-2 Merfolk (If he didn't draw both kiras to block game 1, I won game 1, I drew 1 dismember game 2, he drew 2 out of 2 llanwans game 3 [and i couldn't draw an ornithopter in time;had mistblade shinobi in hand])
2-0 White Weenie
2-0 G/B infect Given that I normally play this deck I knew exactly what to do, but normally in tested, I normally win this match up playing infect)
1-2 affinity Again I think I could of won but even if I made the correct block, we were be in a top deck war to draw a creature and I was drawing a land for the next two turns, so I don't know if it even mattered.
At the store
1 GB Infect
1 UW Stoneblade
2 Affinity (1 tezz, 1 r/w)
1 Burn
1 FNS
1 Dredge
1 Zoo
1 WW
1 Merfolk
Is there a V6 of this deck that we can change to the main post. I feel having a decklist with mental misstep in them is not a good thing. That being said, what replaces misstep? Spell snare?
Tonight I was helping my friend test his goblin deck,and decided to sleeve this up, but I forgot all the numbers of the version 5 list and instead had
-1 sword of fire and ice
-3 island (yes I was only running 16)
and had +2 vendillion clique +1 ornithopter (everything else the same)
The deck didn't run that bad. Most games a lack of land never really came up, either I was screwed regardless, or 2 islands 1 mutavault was normally good enough.
But the main thing I want to suggest is vendillion clique. at times it was a little expensive, but when you are playing draw go with counterspells in hand Eot clique is quite powerful, and with the current meta where clique is good, I'm wondering if a cut can be found somewhere (cutting 4 islands is probably not the right answer)
while not always an issue, sometimes the tempo loss is a huge deal, especially against decks that can win on turn 1 2 or 3. and the ability gained from it is mediocre without fetch lands
2)It is not an island
relevant because of daze
3)it is non-basic. Granted in this deck it may be better having them wasteland your non-manlands to make standstill better, but if the wasteland you off your colors its is so bad. One advantage this deck has and decks like merfolk is wasteland doesn't shut them down. Why add a land to take away that advantage?
I'm not saying that version won't work, but why make those changes?
At its core, FNS is a tempo deck and the decision to go control or aggro depends on the build. but it seems to me that Ancestral is worse than standstill.
taking a sample hand.
Turn 1 ornathopter
turn 2 standstill
vs
turn 1 ornatopter
turn 1 suspend visions
visions seems like the better play because of mana usage
but adding a few more cards into the hand
turn 1 ornathoper turn 1 signal pest
turn 2 standstill
vs
turn 1 ornathoper turn 1 signal pest/visions
turn 2 other card
I think in that case, by adding the one drop, the standstill version is better.
Now going either way, drawing 3 cards on turn 5/6 or drawing 3 cards on turn 3 (this assumes a player breaks standstill immediately) drawing cards later is better as your hand is more empty by then. but what if they don't break standstill (they are bad, they can't or they are going to try and overload your counters) then I think it favores the standstill build. With ninjutsu you have a threat. If they went turn 1 creature, mistblade->deep hours solves that issue. if they have no creature, straight into deepblade is good. Where as with visions you lose the tempo aspect of FNS. It gives a virtual 4 turn free area of safeness compared to drawing an immediate 3 for a potential counter. But as said try it out maybe it will work.
As for Chrome Mox, I think that is not right. the deck is built around card advantage, I don't see why you want card disadvantage for some early ramp, and then what are you ramping into? Turn 2 V. clique? turn 2 v clique is a faster clock than turn 3 v clique, but outside maybe ANT there are few times I wanted a turn 3 clique, let alone turn 2. Maybe for the aggro version it is better, but then is getting 3 points faster worth a blue card? If anything, I'd rather have a lotus petal (while only 1 time use, doesn't cost a second card) but then I'd just want another land or spell [in this case probably the land].
Then finally on the question of aggro (though this may be a reason to play vial if your on the aggro route) why play aggro FNS when you can play merfolk? With the current builds, merfolk has 1 time CA with silvergil, FNS has repetitive CA with Ninja of the deep hour. As a tempo deck that is the reason you would play this deck over something like merfolk, you have better CA. But if your on the aggro plan where your objective is to win before CA matters, your throwing out what makes the deck better than merfolk. CA matters late game not early. Its why team america sides out force of will in the mirror. It is a CA match up, and card disadvatage does not help you win. Your attacking with 2/2's and 1/1's, they are attacking with unblockable 3/3's and 4/4's. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but unless FNS has something merfolk does not have, an aggro style build does not seem reasonable. Don't misunderstand, I love FNS and would love to play it over merfolk, but playing an inferior deck just to play a deck is not a good reason to play it, you need to be able to justify it. (Like I said, I'd play it over merfolk for the better CA, but the aggro version doesn't have that argument)
When the mana you have is mana you'll use to counter spells, draw you cards, or play creatures that'll do either, it certainly = card advantage.
that is not card advantage.
If you counter a spell, you countered A Card with A Card 1=1.
If you draw cards, then this is card advantage (as long as you draw more that one card [otherwise it is filtering])
casting a creature is not card advantage
cast a creature to counter a spell is
casting a creature to draw a card is card advantage
leaving mana untapped and doing nothing with it is neither card advantage or card disadvantage. Until the mana is used, card advantage can't be gained, and unless the card being cast leads to card advantage, card advantage is not gained.
What you gain is
A)Board presence
B)Tempo
C)Card Value
[or a combination of the three]
Vial accelerates you (and thus can provide card advantage) and prevents your creatures from being countered. On turn 3, you will have a vial at 2 and 3 lands. You swing with your Cloud of Faeries that you hardcasted on turn 2, ninja in a Deep Hours, and now you have a Vial at 2 and one untapped land. Without vial, you'd be done here, but with vial you can vial in Cloud to untap those lands, then play something else with the untapped lands (or hold them up for Spellstutter Sprite at 2.)
but that doesn't = card advatage.
On that topic though, what are you cutting vial for?
If you are cutting it for a 1 drop, then in your description we could of had a ninja attacking on turn 2 and then turn 3 recast out 1 drop and still have the "two drop" for the same board presence,but you've taken two swings instead of 1.
If you take out a spell, then having mana untapped or not doesn't matter as the counter sweet cost 0. Sure its ramp, but at the cost of what?
it clones faries, weapons, grindstone, killes legendary creatures, i think it can clone Progenitus based on the wording, clones sower of temptation, clone whatever your opponent have!
I feel that just doesn't do enough.
For faeries, which one are you cloning?
Spellstutter? 3 mana for a 1/1 flier at sorcery speed does not seem good. Yes it adds to the faerie count, but doesn't seem worth it
Cloud of faeries. A little better, but again you only get a 1/1 flier for a pseudo 1 mana that requires 3 and some life to cast, again ups faerie count but still seems bad.
Legendary creature cloning seems like a valid point, but isn't that why we have mistblade? I guess it helps with progenitus and thrun(if it ever sees play). but then thrun hasn't seen play yet, and as for progenitus, how did it get into play? Natural order. Not saying is impossible, but we are playing a mono blue deck (possible a splash) and a 4 cmc spell resolved? between mistblade bouncing their creatures, force and sprite for counters, I see it very hard for it to happen (not saying it wont) in which case then yes clone would be helpful, but then I wonder if another card would of been useful instead. hypergenisis? They probably have multiple targets. Show and tell? I think the most valid one, but then emerakul it put into play 9/10 times.
sower is a valid point
grindstone-not sure how that helps. seems they just wait to cast painter until they can activate grindstone same turn (assuming you cloned their grind stone) or they cast grind stone after painter, in which case you never have a chance to clone it.
As for cloning what your opponent has, so its dead against some decks.
ANT TEPS have no targets (or targets I'm willing to pay 3 and 2 life for) Hide Tide seems dead as well. Dead against Burn, Dredge (I suppose paying 3 mana and 2 life to get rid of bridges isn't bad, but then you need to make it to turn 3 and they have bridges. seems like you either won as they don't have bridges because their dredges missed, or your dead to a lot of zombies)
Its good against aggro decks I suppose but having a gofy that can be killed by their pridemage seems bad. Goblins doesn't have many helpful targets for you. Merfolk lords aren't good for a non-merfolk deck
Its versatile yes, but I feel the best target is a jitte,sower,or progenitus.
then why not just run jitte or sower over it?
Don't get me wrong, I love the card, I just don't see it well in the deck. not to mention what card are you cutting to add this card in. I agree it may be SB material, but I don't think Main Deck it is good
It doesn't have ninjustu so you can't return creatures to your hand
and it doesn't have flash, so you can't counter spells.
that leaves a 3 mana untap 2 land
3 mana signal pest
When they play a spell, Standstill triggers. You let it get sacrificed and then draw three cards. At that time, you play your countermagic.
If you try to counter a spell right away, Standstill will trigger again and give your opponent three cards.
I'll have to rework the Budget list in the OP, as things have changed with the deck (Signal Pest, Mental Misstep).
I just updated the opening post with the newest version of the deck and an updated Budget list.
-T
Dissolution, do you feel v5 is a deck good enough to play at the GP against the current meta (last SCG Open) or is it not strong enough to compete?
Obviously its as strong as it can be at the moment (or at least looks that way) but even if I make the best Barren Glory deck, it does not mean it can win against the current meta. As you made it and are working on it constantly you may be biased, but do you believe it could be piloted to win or is it still stuck in the tier 2 mentality.
I think higure costs too much, but it is a ninja of the deep hours (search for a ninja = draawing a card) #5
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
3 Mistblade Shinobi
4 Cloud of faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Signal Pest
3 ornathopter
2 vendillion clique
1 Sakashima's Student
4 Standstill
4 Force of will
4 Daze
1 spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Uzamawa's jitte
1 spell pierce
1 familar's rouse
4 Mutavault
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 vendillion clique
1 Flutterstorm
2 Pithing needle
2 Spell pierce
1 familar's rouse
1 hurkyl's recall
1 counterspell
I'm unsure on the 5 mysterious cards as I'm doing this from memory without access to the deck atm.
Unfortuantly I never drew student to be able to test it. Still testing out kinks
EDIT:Updated deck list
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
I see some Pros
It can act as a Mistblade or Deep hours if the ground is halted but you have a flier (so Deep hours 5-X)
It can kill legends, though if Progenitus/emerakul/grissibrand are on the field, how relavant will it be, but it is an out.
Cons'
1U ninjustsu cost is hefty.
Space. We already have space issues as it is
at best I see it as a 2-of in the deck, in place of something, but I feel room is the biggest issue, as there could be better cards, but I think deep hours 5-6 that isn't always a deep hours, but can kill legends, has some usefulness if we find room
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
4 Force of Will
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Signal Pest
4 Daze
3 Ornithopter
4 Ninja of the deep hours
4 spellstutter sprite
3 Mistblade Shinobi
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Spell pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion clique
1 Swords of fire and ice
15 snow-covered island
4 Dismember
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion clique
2 hydroblast
2 blue elemental blast
a few notes:
The 1 of counterspell package was because I didn't know what to replace mental misstep with.
Granted it was part of the match ups that I faced, but counterspell and spellsnare were the two best counters, with pierce and flusterstorm not being useful at all
As for the sideboard. I knew there was going to be a dredge deck hence the 6 grave hate cards. That being said, I only sideboarded in the Dismembers in my match ups today.
2-1 UW Stoneblade
0-2 Merfolk (If he didn't draw both kiras to block game 1, I won game 1, I drew 1 dismember game 2, he drew 2 out of 2 llanwans game 3 [and i couldn't draw an ornithopter in time;had mistblade shinobi in hand])
2-0 White Weenie
2-0 G/B infect Given that I normally play this deck I knew exactly what to do, but normally in tested, I normally win this match up playing infect)
1-2 affinity Again I think I could of won but even if I made the correct block, we were be in a top deck war to draw a creature and I was drawing a land for the next two turns, so I don't know if it even mattered.
At the store
1 GB Infect
1 UW Stoneblade
2 Affinity (1 tezz, 1 r/w)
1 Burn
1 FNS
1 Dredge
1 Zoo
1 WW
1 Merfolk
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
-1 sword of fire and ice
-3 island (yes I was only running 16)
and had +2 vendillion clique +1 ornithopter (everything else the same)
The deck didn't run that bad. Most games a lack of land never really came up, either I was screwed regardless, or 2 islands 1 mutavault was normally good enough.
But the main thing I want to suggest is vendillion clique. at times it was a little expensive, but when you are playing draw go with counterspells in hand Eot clique is quite powerful, and with the current meta where clique is good, I'm wondering if a cut can be found somewhere (cutting 4 islands is probably not the right answer)
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
while not always an issue, sometimes the tempo loss is a huge deal, especially against decks that can win on turn 1 2 or 3. and the ability gained from it is mediocre without fetch lands
2)It is not an island
relevant because of daze
3)it is non-basic. Granted in this deck it may be better having them wasteland your non-manlands to make standstill better, but if the wasteland you off your colors its is so bad. One advantage this deck has and decks like merfolk is wasteland doesn't shut them down. Why add a land to take away that advantage?
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
At its core, FNS is a tempo deck and the decision to go control or aggro depends on the build. but it seems to me that Ancestral is worse than standstill.
taking a sample hand.
Turn 1 ornathopter
turn 2 standstill
vs
turn 1 ornatopter
turn 1 suspend visions
visions seems like the better play because of mana usage
but adding a few more cards into the hand
turn 1 ornathoper turn 1 signal pest
turn 2 standstill
vs
turn 1 ornathoper turn 1 signal pest/visions
turn 2 other card
I think in that case, by adding the one drop, the standstill version is better.
Now going either way, drawing 3 cards on turn 5/6 or drawing 3 cards on turn 3 (this assumes a player breaks standstill immediately) drawing cards later is better as your hand is more empty by then. but what if they don't break standstill (they are bad, they can't or they are going to try and overload your counters) then I think it favores the standstill build. With ninjutsu you have a threat. If they went turn 1 creature, mistblade->deep hours solves that issue. if they have no creature, straight into deepblade is good. Where as with visions you lose the tempo aspect of FNS. It gives a virtual 4 turn free area of safeness compared to drawing an immediate 3 for a potential counter. But as said try it out maybe it will work.
As for Chrome Mox, I think that is not right. the deck is built around card advantage, I don't see why you want card disadvantage for some early ramp, and then what are you ramping into? Turn 2 V. clique? turn 2 v clique is a faster clock than turn 3 v clique, but outside maybe ANT there are few times I wanted a turn 3 clique, let alone turn 2. Maybe for the aggro version it is better, but then is getting 3 points faster worth a blue card? If anything, I'd rather have a lotus petal (while only 1 time use, doesn't cost a second card) but then I'd just want another land or spell [in this case probably the land].
Then finally on the question of aggro (though this may be a reason to play vial if your on the aggro route) why play aggro FNS when you can play merfolk? With the current builds, merfolk has 1 time CA with silvergil, FNS has repetitive CA with Ninja of the deep hour. As a tempo deck that is the reason you would play this deck over something like merfolk, you have better CA. But if your on the aggro plan where your objective is to win before CA matters, your throwing out what makes the deck better than merfolk. CA matters late game not early. Its why team america sides out force of will in the mirror. It is a CA match up, and card disadvatage does not help you win. Your attacking with 2/2's and 1/1's, they are attacking with unblockable 3/3's and 4/4's. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but unless FNS has something merfolk does not have, an aggro style build does not seem reasonable. Don't misunderstand, I love FNS and would love to play it over merfolk, but playing an inferior deck just to play a deck is not a good reason to play it, you need to be able to justify it. (Like I said, I'd play it over merfolk for the better CA, but the aggro version doesn't have that argument)
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
that is not card advantage.
If you counter a spell, you countered A Card with A Card 1=1.
If you draw cards, then this is card advantage (as long as you draw more that one card [otherwise it is filtering])
casting a creature is not card advantage
cast a creature to counter a spell is
casting a creature to draw a card is card advantage
leaving mana untapped and doing nothing with it is neither card advantage or card disadvantage. Until the mana is used, card advantage can't be gained, and unless the card being cast leads to card advantage, card advantage is not gained.
What you gain is
A)Board presence
B)Tempo
C)Card Value
[or a combination of the three]
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
but that doesn't = card advatage.
On that topic though, what are you cutting vial for?
If you are cutting it for a 1 drop, then in your description we could of had a ninja attacking on turn 2 and then turn 3 recast out 1 drop and still have the "two drop" for the same board presence,but you've taken two swings instead of 1.
If you take out a spell, then having mana untapped or not doesn't matter as the counter sweet cost 0. Sure its ramp, but at the cost of what?
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
I feel that just doesn't do enough.
For faeries, which one are you cloning?
Spellstutter? 3 mana for a 1/1 flier at sorcery speed does not seem good. Yes it adds to the faerie count, but doesn't seem worth it
Cloud of faeries. A little better, but again you only get a 1/1 flier for a pseudo 1 mana that requires 3 and some life to cast, again ups faerie count but still seems bad.
Legendary creature cloning seems like a valid point, but isn't that why we have mistblade? I guess it helps with progenitus and thrun(if it ever sees play). but then thrun hasn't seen play yet, and as for progenitus, how did it get into play? Natural order. Not saying is impossible, but we are playing a mono blue deck (possible a splash) and a 4 cmc spell resolved? between mistblade bouncing their creatures, force and sprite for counters, I see it very hard for it to happen (not saying it wont) in which case then yes clone would be helpful, but then I wonder if another card would of been useful instead. hypergenisis? They probably have multiple targets. Show and tell? I think the most valid one, but then emerakul it put into play 9/10 times.
sower is a valid point
grindstone-not sure how that helps. seems they just wait to cast painter until they can activate grindstone same turn (assuming you cloned their grind stone) or they cast grind stone after painter, in which case you never have a chance to clone it.
As for cloning what your opponent has, so its dead against some decks.
ANT TEPS have no targets (or targets I'm willing to pay 3 and 2 life for) Hide Tide seems dead as well. Dead against Burn, Dredge (I suppose paying 3 mana and 2 life to get rid of bridges isn't bad, but then you need to make it to turn 3 and they have bridges. seems like you either won as they don't have bridges because their dredges missed, or your dead to a lot of zombies)
Its good against aggro decks I suppose but having a gofy that can be killed by their pridemage seems bad. Goblins doesn't have many helpful targets for you. Merfolk lords aren't good for a non-merfolk deck
Its versatile yes, but I feel the best target is a jitte,sower,or progenitus.
then why not just run jitte or sower over it?
Don't get me wrong, I love the card, I just don't see it well in the deck. not to mention what card are you cutting to add this card in. I agree it may be SB material, but I don't think Main Deck it is good
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
It doesn't have ninjustu so you can't return creatures to your hand
and it doesn't have flash, so you can't counter spells.
that leaves a 3 mana untap 2 land
3 mana signal pest
jitte is ledgendary
so what are you cloning?
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
Dissolution, do you feel v5 is a deck good enough to play at the GP against the current meta (last SCG Open) or is it not strong enough to compete?
Obviously its as strong as it can be at the moment (or at least looks that way) but even if I make the best Barren Glory deck, it does not mean it can win against the current meta. As you made it and are working on it constantly you may be biased, but do you believe it could be piloted to win or is it still stuck in the tier 2 mentality.
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect