Taking nonbasics high doesn't necessarily mean playing many colors, since some of the lands that fix your mana also have some other strong abilities, like manlands or the fetches. Just being able to cast your spells on curve or support colorless utility lands is enough to justify picking them quite high, even if you only plan to go 2c.
Imo 10% nonbasics is the absolute minimum, I would rather aim for a higher number. The average number of nonbasics in the 360 cubes is 42, but I think that they are important enough that I am running 14.4% (which would be 52 extrapolated to a 360 list).
Is that 10% number include all non-basics or only color fixing non-basics?
Can you guys share some prominent examples of really "balanced" cubes? I'm particularly looking for cubes that have tried to balance the power level of the different colors so that green isn't the obvious worst color. That would probably mean being unpowered and excluding the most broken cards from other colors, especially blue and white.
Interestingly my cube is very different from wtwlf's and I don't feel green is the worst either. One reason is the one wtwlf mentioned that it's often easy for green decks to go midrange to beat aggro, but I also think GU decks are the king of control decks. Those decks usually get the mana advantage through green ramp and the green 187 disruption guys are really good in control matchups. Being able to deploy a body and slow your opponent down while also keeping mana open for counterspells is just really hard for other control decks to fight against. So depending on which cards you draft and how you build your deck you can take out either edge of the spectrum.
While I think it's fairly close between the non-blue colors, I think white might actually be the weakest in my cube. Which is by no means to say that white is bad or you can't 3-0 a pod with it, but I do think UW is the worst of the control decks and white weenie while powerful, is easier to miss with than mono-red, in that it's easier to putter out against the control decks because you lack the reach that red has and the disruption often isn't as good if you can't get your hand on 'geddon or one of the colorless disruptors.
Do you guys consider your mana-fixing lands (Vivids, ABU Duals, Karoos) to be in the colorless section or in the appropriate guild section?
I classify my five color fixing lands in colorless, my lands with abilities tied to one color in the appropriate color and my other land cycles (vivids, fetches, tri lands, etc.) in their own section.
I wanted to ask everyone about dual lands in cube. Right now at 450 I'm running all 10 fetches, the shocklands, the dual-color manlands, and the 5 shard lands. I feel like other cubes run more duals than I do. The Shards lands feel under-utilized. Three color decks aren't rare, but they aren't so common that the lands often find a perfect-fit home. Instead they usually act like duals that come into play tapped. I'm thinking I'll add enemy-colored duals of some sort to balance out the man-land ally color duals, and drop the Shards lands.
I'm also debating adding another cycle of ten dual lands. I'd love some advice on what would work best. Original duals seem to make multi-color too easy, but maybe it's time I reviewed my thought process on that. I've seen others use a mix of bounce lands, filter lands, etc. What do you guys think?
The dual lands don't necessarily make multi-color too easy. I think Fetches, ABU duals and Shocklands are the most important, because they're good in aggro. So if you can add those, I'd add those.
As for the Shard lands, they do often play as dual lands that come into play tapped, but they do that for so many different decks. They're not necessary, but they're fine too. I'd run them over most other dual sets.
Would it be possible/interesting to play the same format where instead of getting a random creature, you get a random creature that is the same color as the basic land you discarded? And give the drafters the ability to include any number of basics in a breakdown they wish? For example, if I pay 4 and discard a plains, I would get a creature at random from a pool of 4cc white creatures, but if I discarded a swamp, I'd get a 4cc black creature instead? I thought it may add a bit more depth of strategy into the format. Has anyone tried this?
I think it's a great idea but the physical layout of the cards seems difficult. Even how they did it they had to leave piles elsewhere. If you multiply the number of piles by 5 it seems like you need a lot of space and are liable to get confused. Also handling the really expensive drops seems awkward. Would that rule be limited to 1-6 cc guys?
I've heard mojo is way more fair than mojosto, because of certain equipments.
-AA
Yeah, MoJo is prolly better than MoJoSto. I just really prefer the ones with Jhoira to straight Momir basic because there are more decisions to make but Momir Basic, you basically just skip X number of drops and then make the biggest drop possible every turn.
I wouldn't say that; I just think their vision is a bit different.
-AA
Some of it is their vision being a bit different and some of it is just wrong. Leaving out signets and Talismans is a vision difference. Leaving out the high end power cards like Sol Ring and Mind Twist is a vision difference. Even trying to support unusual archetypes like Storm and leaving out more common ones like the artifact deck is arguable on that front.
But leaving out Stormfront Pegasus and Plated Geopede isn't a vision difference. Those are just errors. Including Phantasmal Bear when they've decided not to support blue aggro decks is just wrong. Trying to support storm but doing it horribly is just a mistake.
I'm all for a variety of cubes, but some of the decisions are just ludicrous.
So I played this draft today and there was something weird going on. There were these cards with little swirly things in the upper right hand corner and there were these other cards with numbers like 2/1 in the lower right hand corner. And there were no counterspells or non-land cards that tapped for mana either. It was a really weird experience.
But seriously I did draft a really sweet RW aggro deck tonight and went 4-0 with it. Opening SFM, 'Geddon and Vortex and alot of RW fixing was really nice. I could've used some more one drops, but after aggro had been struggling a bit recently it was great to have a really nice one. As I was saying to Usman earlier I think it was the first time I ever drafted Sulfuric Vortex.
My thoughts on the MODO cube from doing the drafts with aggro:
1. Kenny's point about fixing being necessary for aggro is very true. I never felt a problem with my mana when I was drafting control, but when I tried to go aggro the mana felt very awkward, especially because it seems Tom Lapille hates 1C guys. Why he runs something like goblin wardriver and not plated geopede I have no idea, but unless you mise into the right fetches and duals for your two color aggro the mana is just unlikely to work. I think adding the painlands would be a huge help as far as that is concerned.
2. Mono-B is suprisingly viable. As far as fringe archetypes go it's definitely in the best shape.
3. On the other hand storm is the worst deck imaginable. Any card that looks like it belongs in a storm deck (other than the ponder effects) is a card you prolly don't wanna draft.
4. The lack of an artifact deck is really sad. I want the tezzerets so bad.
5. Green prolly still isn't the best color, but it feels like the color with the least absolute jank in it. Basically everything in green is either a mana dork, a ramp spell, a midrange guy, or a ramp finisher. Where as blue and red have all these god awful storm cards, white has weird life gain card and an awkward balance between and black has a lot of mono-B cards, which are fine if you go that way but pretty terrible if you don't.
After having done a bunch of drafts with it my opinion is that as a whole it plays out better than I'd have thought, but I'm actually more amazed at how terrible it is on a detailed level. Including archetypes that are straight up unplayable like storm, or over supporting archetypes like Wildfire (do you really need wildfire, burning of xinye, devastating force, the red dreams card, and even death cloud in black), or having two random poison cards, or leaving out support for archetypes like blink (neither portal nor crystal shard) the artifact deck and aggro and some mystifying inclusions and exlcusions (renewed faith and grimgrin are in but phantasmal image and kor skyfisher are out) it just doesn't feel like a cube well planned at all. It feels like the level most of our cubes were at before we put in time polishing them, which is sad because Tom Lapille has been cubing longer than me and many others here have. When you've got access to all the cards you ought to be able to do a better job.
I don't think people are being fair about their cube list. Is it the most powerful limited environment around? Definitely not. But it might be a healthy and balanced limited environment, which is just as important.
Except if you'll notice the complaints aren't about the power level. I haven't really heard anyone complaining that they left out sol ring, library, mana drain, etc. Even those of us who really like the uber-powerful cards understand that other people choose to play without those cards and want a flatter power-band. The problem is that they didn't build a healthy and balanced limited environment. The aggro support is poor and there are way to many cards that are undesirable for any cube deck.
Actually I think Phyrexian Obliterator is very underestimated on this forum. It have been great for me and my playgroup - but I have also tried to make MBA/MBC a viable arcetype.
The other cards like storm, show and tell and dream halls seems to cute, but I understand their inclusion.
Yeah, but you really have to be supporting mono-black.
Is that 10% number include all non-basics or only color fixing non-basics?
Interestingly my cube is very different from wtwlf's and I don't feel green is the worst either. One reason is the one wtwlf mentioned that it's often easy for green decks to go midrange to beat aggro, but I also think GU decks are the king of control decks. Those decks usually get the mana advantage through green ramp and the green 187 disruption guys are really good in control matchups. Being able to deploy a body and slow your opponent down while also keeping mana open for counterspells is just really hard for other control decks to fight against. So depending on which cards you draft and how you build your deck you can take out either edge of the spectrum.
While I think it's fairly close between the non-blue colors, I think white might actually be the weakest in my cube. Which is by no means to say that white is bad or you can't 3-0 a pod with it, but I do think UW is the worst of the control decks and white weenie while powerful, is easier to miss with than mono-red, in that it's easier to putter out against the control decks because you lack the reach that red has and the disruption often isn't as good if you can't get your hand on 'geddon or one of the colorless disruptors.
I classify my five color fixing lands in colorless, my lands with abilities tied to one color in the appropriate color and my other land cycles (vivids, fetches, tri lands, etc.) in their own section.
The dual lands don't necessarily make multi-color too easy. I think Fetches, ABU duals and Shocklands are the most important, because they're good in aggro. So if you can add those, I'd add those.
As for the Shard lands, they do often play as dual lands that come into play tapped, but they do that for so many different decks. They're not necessary, but they're fine too. I'd run them over most other dual sets.
I think it's a great idea but the physical layout of the cards seems difficult. Even how they did it they had to leave piles elsewhere. If you multiply the number of piles by 5 it seems like you need a lot of space and are liable to get confused. Also handling the really expensive drops seems awkward. Would that rule be limited to 1-6 cc guys?
Yeah, MoJo is prolly better than MoJoSto. I just really prefer the ones with Jhoira to straight Momir basic because there are more decisions to make but Momir Basic, you basically just skip X number of drops and then make the biggest drop possible every turn.
Some of it is their vision being a bit different and some of it is just wrong. Leaving out signets and Talismans is a vision difference. Leaving out the high end power cards like Sol Ring and Mind Twist is a vision difference. Even trying to support unusual archetypes like Storm and leaving out more common ones like the artifact deck is arguable on that front.
But leaving out Stormfront Pegasus and Plated Geopede isn't a vision difference. Those are just errors. Including Phantasmal Bear when they've decided not to support blue aggro decks is just wrong. Trying to support storm but doing it horribly is just a mistake.
I'm all for a variety of cubes, but some of the decisions are just ludicrous.
"When is the last time you played Stormfront Pegasus in a Constructed deck? Cube is a Constructed format with Limited skin"
That perhaps explains a lot about why the cube list is so awkward.
But seriously I did draft a really sweet RW aggro deck tonight and went 4-0 with it. Opening SFM, 'Geddon and Vortex and alot of RW fixing was really nice. I could've used some more one drops, but after aggro had been struggling a bit recently it was great to have a really nice one. As I was saying to Usman earlier I think it was the first time I ever drafted Sulfuric Vortex.
1. Kenny's point about fixing being necessary for aggro is very true. I never felt a problem with my mana when I was drafting control, but when I tried to go aggro the mana felt very awkward, especially because it seems Tom Lapille hates 1C guys. Why he runs something like goblin wardriver and not plated geopede I have no idea, but unless you mise into the right fetches and duals for your two color aggro the mana is just unlikely to work. I think adding the painlands would be a huge help as far as that is concerned.
2. Mono-B is suprisingly viable. As far as fringe archetypes go it's definitely in the best shape.
3. On the other hand storm is the worst deck imaginable. Any card that looks like it belongs in a storm deck (other than the ponder effects) is a card you prolly don't wanna draft.
4. The lack of an artifact deck is really sad. I want the tezzerets so bad.
5. Green prolly still isn't the best color, but it feels like the color with the least absolute jank in it. Basically everything in green is either a mana dork, a ramp spell, a midrange guy, or a ramp finisher. Where as blue and red have all these god awful storm cards, white has weird life gain card and an awkward balance between and black has a lot of mono-B cards, which are fine if you go that way but pretty terrible if you don't.
After having done a bunch of drafts with it my opinion is that as a whole it plays out better than I'd have thought, but I'm actually more amazed at how terrible it is on a detailed level. Including archetypes that are straight up unplayable like storm, or over supporting archetypes like Wildfire (do you really need wildfire, burning of xinye, devastating force, the red dreams card, and even death cloud in black), or having two random poison cards, or leaving out support for archetypes like blink (neither portal nor crystal shard) the artifact deck and aggro and some mystifying inclusions and exlcusions (renewed faith and grimgrin are in but phantasmal image and kor skyfisher are out) it just doesn't feel like a cube well planned at all. It feels like the level most of our cubes were at before we put in time polishing them, which is sad because Tom Lapille has been cubing longer than me and many others here have. When you've got access to all the cards you ought to be able to do a better job.
Except if you'll notice the complaints aren't about the power level. I haven't really heard anyone complaining that they left out sol ring, library, mana drain, etc. Even those of us who really like the uber-powerful cards understand that other people choose to play without those cards and want a flatter power-band. The problem is that they didn't build a healthy and balanced limited environment. The aggro support is poor and there are way to many cards that are undesirable for any cube deck.
Yeah, but you really have to be supporting mono-black.