If you cast it with 6 or more mana available, you could argue that the tokens he creates can generate enough value to "protect itself" in a sense. Even if he himself dies to spot removal.
EDIT: Then if Meloku fits that aspect of your criteria, he fits all three criteria for being a dedicated control finisher and there's no reason to even say there should be a distinction between him as a high mana blue creature and a dedicated control finisher.
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K, so me calling Meloku as a finisher was fine. That's all I wanted.
I agree that Aetherling is sweet and definitely awesome in control-vs-control, and it's great that we all have different preferences, life would be boring if we all were just robots that drafted off a pick order list.
I think there's a distinction between a high mana creature and a dedicated control finisher. I think that's where the communication breakdown is coming in at.
You asserted a point, and even went so far as to say:
Quote from wtwlf123 »
I don't consider the distinction arbitrary.
If anyone is being too serious about the distinction between finishers and high-cost blue cards, it is you.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
In a control deck with enough win conditions, every top-end creature is a "finisher".
So why did you originally say there was a communication breakdown when I called Meloku a finisher?
Quote from wtwlf123 »
Meloku can fit the bill because it can do all three of those things. But I think Ætherling is better in that role, because it does a more efficient job of accomplishing those bullet points I look for.
I wasn't aware Meloku could protect itself. In fact, you even said this:
Quote from wtwlf123 »
A case can definitely be made for Meloku, because the tokens help accomplish two of those tasks, but his vulnerability to removal makes him somewhat less reliable at closing out games.
I think you have your foot in a lot of doors in this communication breakdown.
Here is what I believe about this discussion, please feel free to correct me or leave it as it is:
1) Anything can be considered a finisher or not a finisher. It largely depends on the deck. Serra Angel was an appropriate finisher for "The Deck."
2) Aetherling, I believe, is without dispute the best control-vs-control finisher.
3) I prefer Meloku and Sphinx to Aetherling in matchups where it is not control-vs-control. You may prefer otherwise, that's fine.
He is saying that the role of finisher is defined by how well a card does those 3 things. And Aertherling does 2/3 of the things better than almost any other card while also doing the third thing decently. It meets the qualifications of being a finisher better than any other 7 mana or less card in blue.
I would maybe reword the qualifications slightly as:
1. Kills the opponent fast.
2. Keeps itself alive.
3. Keeps you alive.
In roughly that order of importance.
Also, being the best finisher doesn't mean it is the best card. Meloku can be a value engine, a mid range card, a token maker, a board control card, and more. Aertherling is a better finisher, but Meloku could still be a better card depending on how you value those other functions.
I don't disagree with any of this.
I said that I would prefer Meloku or Consecrated Sphinx as finishers against non-control decks.
Wtwlf123 said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx cannot be called dedicated control finishers.
I said the distinction is arbitrary.
He believes it is not.
I still don't understand why I can't call Meloku a dedicated control finisher.
Maybe your cube has less targeted removal than other ones, but having your control finishers protect themselves is a pretty big deal. Or maybe your cube sees less creature combat than mine, so protecting you while winning isn't as crucial. I don't know.
This is off-topic. The entire reason we got into this discussion is because you said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx aren't finishers.
I'm not saying you can't win games with other creatures.
I don't think anyone accused you of saying that.
I'm saying that if I want a dedicated control finisher, Ætherling is the best one. Meloku is also great. But I think Sphinx makes for a pretty poor finisher. It's great for drawing some cards and then dying. It's not very good at being a lone win condition.
I don't think a finisher has to be a lone win condition to be considered a finisher either. I think being called a finisher is subjective rather than objective and trying to put criteria on what can and cannot be called a finisher is an exercise in futility.
So, Morphling and Ætherling are the only cards that exist that would meet your criteria of being a finisher, or is Meloku now considered a finisher too?
Because if so, I think the original point that I made which brought us down this rabbit trail would ring true -- I would prefer Meloku as a finisher against non-control matchups rather than Ætherling.
You mentioned "ideally" and "in a perfect world" but these are just preferences and not requirements for being called a finisher.
Serra Angel was The Deck's finisher for the longest time, and it had no way to protect itself.
I think you're putting a lot of unnecessary restrictions on what can be called and what can not be called a finisher.
I don't think you answered my question as well - what other blue finishers even exist if you're giving Ætherling the title of finisher, but not Meloku or Sphinx?
I don't understand where the distinction is, and if there is one it must be pretty arbitrary because Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx will definitely finish the game.
What other blue finishers even exist if you're giving Ætherling the title of finisher, but not Meloku or Sphinx?
Meloku is a better card, but it's not as reliable as a dedicated control finisher. And Sphinx is a good card draw engine, but isn't really good in the role of "finisher" IMO, considering how unreliable it is. None of them have the protection and the inevitability that Ætherling does.
It's the best control finisher period. Not just in control vs control. In fact, it's a better finisher in your non-control matchups, where his defensive capabilities are put to better use.
I like the other finishers / high casting cost blue creatures against decks that aren't control. Ætherling is sweet though, no question about it. He really shines his brightest in the control mirror.
I don't think any cube that plays baby Jace or Aetherling is slow, although both of those cards would do better in slower cubes. I'd play both at powered 450, which is what wtwlf123's cube is, and his cube is very balanced between aggro, mid-range, and control.
My cube is likely a little faster, but probably not by that much.
EDIT: Also, my cube isn't updated on CubeTutor, although you're welcome to imput the cube from my MTGS thread into whichever program allows you to do what you want to. We're testing some different cards at the moment (which you can see in the last post of my cube list) if you'd like to try the version I'll be cubing with tonight & Friday.
I like Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx a good bit more, especially in other matchups where you can't always afford to wait until 4UUU for your finisher to start doing work.
Ætherling may be the best control vs. control finisher ever printed. He's incredible at surviving every kind of removal and evading enemy blockers for a quick victory. He is obviously very good against multiple archetypes, but that matchup is the one he really shines in.
That being said, I don't like control vs. control finishers to begin with (very narrow subset of games honestly), and we don't play him in our 360 powered cube because we don't have the room for him.
If your cube is on the larger or slower side, he's fantastic, and he is great all the way down to powered 450s where I'd likely play him.
EDIT: Then if Meloku fits that aspect of your criteria, he fits all three criteria for being a dedicated control finisher and there's no reason to even say there should be a distinction between him as a high mana blue creature and a dedicated control finisher.
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K, so me calling Meloku as a finisher was fine. That's all I wanted.
I agree that Aetherling is sweet and definitely awesome in control-vs-control, and it's great that we all have different preferences, life would be boring if we all were just robots that drafted off a pick order list.
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How am I taking things "too seriously," and what does that even mean? We're having a discussion about what you meant when you said this:
You asserted a point, and even went so far as to say:
If anyone is being too serious about the distinction between finishers and high-cost blue cards, it is you.
So why did you originally say there was a communication breakdown when I called Meloku a finisher?
I wasn't aware Meloku could protect itself. In fact, you even said this:
I think you have your foot in a lot of doors in this communication breakdown.
Here is what I believe about this discussion, please feel free to correct me or leave it as it is:
1) Anything can be considered a finisher or not a finisher. It largely depends on the deck. Serra Angel was an appropriate finisher for "The Deck."
2) Aetherling, I believe, is without dispute the best control-vs-control finisher.
3) I prefer Meloku and Sphinx to Aetherling in matchups where it is not control-vs-control. You may prefer otherwise, that's fine.
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I think you're being very arbitrary in trying to give requirements for what cards people can and cannot call finishers.
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I don't disagree with any of this.
I said that I would prefer Meloku or Consecrated Sphinx as finishers against non-control decks.
Wtwlf123 said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx cannot be called dedicated control finishers.
I said the distinction is arbitrary.
He believes it is not.
I still don't understand why I can't call Meloku a dedicated control finisher.
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This is off-topic. The entire reason we got into this discussion is because you said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx aren't finishers.
I don't think anyone accused you of saying that.
I don't think a finisher has to be a lone win condition to be considered a finisher either. I think being called a finisher is subjective rather than objective and trying to put criteria on what can and cannot be called a finisher is an exercise in futility.
So, Morphling and Ætherling are the only cards that exist that would meet your criteria of being a finisher, or is Meloku now considered a finisher too?
Because if so, I think the original point that I made which brought us down this rabbit trail would ring true -- I would prefer Meloku as a finisher against non-control matchups rather than Ætherling.
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Serra Angel was The Deck's finisher for the longest time, and it had no way to protect itself.
I think you're putting a lot of unnecessary restrictions on what can be called and what can not be called a finisher.
I don't think you answered my question as well - what other blue finishers even exist if you're giving Ætherling the title of finisher, but not Meloku or Sphinx?
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What other blue finishers even exist if you're giving Ætherling the title of finisher, but not Meloku or Sphinx?
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I was just responding to this quote:
I like the other finishers / high casting cost blue creatures against decks that aren't control. Ætherling is sweet though, no question about it. He really shines his brightest in the control mirror.
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My cube is likely a little faster, but probably not by that much.
EDIT: Also, my cube isn't updated on CubeTutor, although you're welcome to imput the cube from my MTGS thread into whichever program allows you to do what you want to. We're testing some different cards at the moment (which you can see in the last post of my cube list) if you'd like to try the version I'll be cubing with tonight & Friday.
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That being said, I don't like control vs. control finishers to begin with (very narrow subset of games honestly), and we don't play him in our 360 powered cube because we don't have the room for him.
If your cube is on the larger or slower side, he's fantastic, and he is great all the way down to powered 450s where I'd likely play him.
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