Valuable discussions that are formed around differing opinions... the basis for good cube discussion for the past 15 years! Always happy to talk all things cube at any time. Thanks for the discussion!
Is Militant really going to survive to the point where he is impacting the game against your opponent's Jace, Gearhulk, Delve, flashback cards anyway?
Any time you exile a single spell, you're effecting the quality of their Snappy/Delve/Etc. kinds of cards ...you don't have to shut them off completely for it to still have made a positive impact on the game. But we're talking about a marginal upside on a flexible 2-power 1-drop. Rarely do any of these abilities come up on any of these creatures. The point was to measure how effective they are when they do come up. And the spell disruption is relevant when it does show up, even if it's not all that often. It matters a lot more than protection from multicolor or pro dragons or any of those other fringe abilities. Particularly against spell-based combo decks that are already going to be light on removal. Needing to aim a kill spell at a 1-drop because it's invalidating your Yawgmoth's Will or Past in Flames is a more significant upside than whatever the other fringe 1-drops bring to the table.
But that's all besides the point. The important upside is the hybrid mana cost. That's the big factor that separates the card from the pack. In any deck utilizing both of its colors of mana, it's a tremendous boon. Enough so to catapult it into being one of the best 2-power 1-drop in its respective colors. I think it's dramatically undervalued here how much better that casting cost actually is in a selesnya, naya or abzan aggro deck. Not to mention that it's also playable in green decks without white! Like Metamind says above, that increases the total number of decks that can play the card, which is a significant advantage.
Cube owners are doctrinaire about strict color balance but then try to pretend that hybrid cards are gold cards
Literally nobody is doing this. You know about the difference between a guild section and a gold section, you're just ignoring those long-documented advantages and justifications to either be combative or just to troll.
Kytheon is better, and Bodyguard is better in some decks. Student has the edge over it in mono white. Militant is better than all of those other cards though IMO ...even when the green mana is irrelevant. Which it's not, because in every deck that has access to both green and white mana, Militant is better than every card on that list and by a significant margin too. The spell disruption is a big deal when applicable. It injures combo decks, weakens cards like Snappy, Gearhulk, and Jace, makes the opponent's delve cards less consistent, kills all flashback spells ...that's a lot of disruptive utility to strap to a 2-power creature for 1 mana. Far more relevant than protection from multicolored, for example.
Finks and maybe Knight of Autumn are the only two cards on that list I would include ahead of Militant on the list you posted.
Militant is great. It's better than most 2-power 1-drops in either of its respective colors, and the hybrid mana cost is a HUGE deal. Card's fantastic.
I think in a cube small enough where they'd be pitted up against each other (360 or smaller) I think there's a lot of options for other disenchant/naturalize effects, and not much else that can do what Voice does.
Haven't playtested this card at all, anyone want to share some stories on Voice?
I had a blue drafter tell me it was really frustrating to play against because it's such a hoser to the type of game blue likes to play. I'm okay with that. It's actually amazing against a lot of decks. Start paying attention to how often having your instants be sorceries would suck, and you'll be able to see the impact this guy can have for 2 mana.
Not only that, but you get an insane power/cost ratio spread out over 2 threats if nothing else. It's great.
Everyone, let's get back to the the thread's topic. As interesting as the debate on proxy ethics/morality may be, it's pretty far tangent from whether Voice of Resurgence warrants inclusion in cube decks.
We could use this in about half a dozen threads right now.
I think in a small enough cube where you're only running 3 WG cards, you might have enough aggro 1-drops to not need Lion, and might have enough disenchant/naturalize effects to not need Pridemage. Voice gives Selesnya midrange a tool against control decks (which is important because it shores up the deck's biggest weakness), and gives you a big power/cost value for 2 mana for any deck/matchup. I'd consider at least testing it out in the #3 slot behind Finks and Militant.
You wouldnt play that card in your red or black decks.
Not over the other three drops that are in those colors already.
Quote from MagicFever »
But back on topic: IMO Pridemage is better than Voice: I really like disenchants with a body as they are not dead when your opponent has no target in play.
It can be better sometimes, ya. But I don't think the effect is as needed as the one that Voice brings to WG midrange decks. Because Selesnya is the color combination that has the easiest time dealing with artifacts/enchantments as it is. Especially at 360, where this decision might actually have to be made. In all bigger cubes, we just get to run both.
Would you play Fulminator Mage in Rakdos? No
Would you play it in black or red? Of course and it is one of the best three drops in the strategies of both colors.
No, I would not play that card in black or red. Otherwise, Fulminator Mage would be in the cube.
More to the point, I cut Fulminator Mage because it wasn't very good. Not because there were better cards in BR.
Quote from MagicFever »
Yeah you might be right that I got confused but still ... treating hybrid cards as hybrid cards and not gold or guild opens up some slots and cube design.
It depends on how you try and implement it. For my cube, it would achieve the opposite effect of the reason why I run a guild system in the first place. Moving hybrid cards to a hybrid section or to mono-colored sections at the cost of cutting an even amount of mono-colored cards opens up free gold slots. I don't want that. I want to be able to cut gold cards for good hybrid cards. That's what I can do now.
Quote from MagicFever »
-and I dont want to shift the discussion to the hybrid classification-
So cutting a bad card for a better card seems like an upgrade to me.
It depends. I don't want to cut a white card for it either. Cutting a mono-colored card to free up an additional guild slot that will be used for more gold cards is not what I want to be doing for my cube either. I totally understand where SpEkKiO99 is coming from.
only real guild cards in your guild section avoiding a bias towards playable cards for one color or the other.
I think you're confusing a guild section with a gold section. Guild sections incorporate all cards that are intrinsically best in that respective color combination. The same way our mono-colored sections include cards that don't truly compete against each other, guild sections function similarly. It's not simply a section for gold cards. That's what we had before the guild system started being used.
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Any time you exile a single spell, you're effecting the quality of their Snappy/Delve/Etc. kinds of cards ...you don't have to shut them off completely for it to still have made a positive impact on the game. But we're talking about a marginal upside on a flexible 2-power 1-drop. Rarely do any of these abilities come up on any of these creatures. The point was to measure how effective they are when they do come up. And the spell disruption is relevant when it does show up, even if it's not all that often. It matters a lot more than protection from multicolor or pro dragons or any of those other fringe abilities. Particularly against spell-based combo decks that are already going to be light on removal. Needing to aim a kill spell at a 1-drop because it's invalidating your Yawgmoth's Will or Past in Flames is a more significant upside than whatever the other fringe 1-drops bring to the table.
But that's all besides the point. The important upside is the hybrid mana cost. That's the big factor that separates the card from the pack. In any deck utilizing both of its colors of mana, it's a tremendous boon. Enough so to catapult it into being one of the best 2-power 1-drop in its respective colors. I think it's dramatically undervalued here how much better that casting cost actually is in a selesnya, naya or abzan aggro deck. Not to mention that it's also playable in green decks without white! Like Metamind says above, that increases the total number of decks that can play the card, which is a significant advantage.
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Literally nobody is doing this. You know about the difference between a guild section and a gold section, you're just ignoring those long-documented advantages and justifications to either be combative or just to troll.
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Than most of the cards you just listed? Yes.
Kytheon is better, and Bodyguard is better in some decks. Student has the edge over it in mono white. Militant is better than all of those other cards though IMO ...even when the green mana is irrelevant. Which it's not, because in every deck that has access to both green and white mana, Militant is better than every card on that list and by a significant margin too. The spell disruption is a big deal when applicable. It injures combo decks, weakens cards like Snappy, Gearhulk, and Jace, makes the opponent's delve cards less consistent, kills all flashback spells ...that's a lot of disruptive utility to strap to a 2-power creature for 1 mana. Far more relevant than protection from multicolored, for example.
Finks and maybe Knight of Autumn are the only two cards on that list I would include ahead of Militant on the list you posted.
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My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I had a blue drafter tell me it was really frustrating to play against because it's such a hoser to the type of game blue likes to play. I'm okay with that. It's actually amazing against a lot of decks. Start paying attention to how often having your instants be sorceries would suck, and you'll be able to see the impact this guy can have for 2 mana.
Not only that, but you get an insane power/cost ratio spread out over 2 threats if nothing else. It's great.
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We could use this in about half a dozen threads right now.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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Not over the other three drops that are in those colors already.
It can be better sometimes, ya. But I don't think the effect is as needed as the one that Voice brings to WG midrange decks. Because Selesnya is the color combination that has the easiest time dealing with artifacts/enchantments as it is. Especially at 360, where this decision might actually have to be made. In all bigger cubes, we just get to run both.
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No, I would not play that card in black or red. Otherwise, Fulminator Mage would be in the cube.
More to the point, I cut Fulminator Mage because it wasn't very good. Not because there were better cards in BR.
It depends on how you try and implement it. For my cube, it would achieve the opposite effect of the reason why I run a guild system in the first place. Moving hybrid cards to a hybrid section or to mono-colored sections at the cost of cutting an even amount of mono-colored cards opens up free gold slots. I don't want that. I want to be able to cut gold cards for good hybrid cards. That's what I can do now.
Now this ...this we can agree on.
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It depends. I don't want to cut a white card for it either. Cutting a mono-colored card to free up an additional guild slot that will be used for more gold cards is not what I want to be doing for my cube either. I totally understand where SpEkKiO99 is coming from.
I think you're confusing a guild section with a gold section. Guild sections incorporate all cards that are intrinsically best in that respective color combination. The same way our mono-colored sections include cards that don't truly compete against each other, guild sections function similarly. It's not simply a section for gold cards. That's what we had before the guild system started being used.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!