I get what you're saying though, when you invest into Legacy, if you don't have Duals, then you're looking to fork over a lot of cash. Mana bases alone, for the top tier decks, can run up to a thousand dollars.
Modern was built to appease the players who don't have duals with an eternal format where they could invest into.
And, for the people saying Legacy is more fun... How can you measure what's more fun? Sure, you may have more fun playing Legacy, but I don't. I have infinitely more fun playing Modern. Fun is completely subjective. I know players that would rather play EDH, Vintage, or 2HG than Legacy. It's all about the person and their friends.
well my argument that fun should = variety and legacy has more variety than modern because the larger card pool. This point is less subjective although when I play magic casually it is legacy using trice/mws/ or proxies with friends IRL.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Name a deck in legacy that is very popular that plays Moat, Tabernacle, or pretty much anything over $150. The only real things that make Legacy more expensive than Modern is manabase (Duals + Wasteland) and Force of Will and a few other choice cards that are outside of Modern's pool. And of course standard is way more expensive than either to play at the tournament level in the long run (which is why I switched to eternal really quickly after returning to magic).
I don't have a whole lot of experience with legacy beyond casually with friends.(MWS, trice, or proxies) I picked up a list and thought about building it and it had a moat. I was going through the prices and had a double take. Also I said that standard is cheaper. Sure over the course of like 5 years it is not, but you can build a standard deck at around tier 2 for ~150$.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
To you its more fun. As for cost, it really depends on what cards you own already. Duals for Legacy are much more expensive then shocklands, there are some staples comparable in price but when it comes to the mana base, Legacy is much more expensive to buy into as a n00b.
Using the diversity = fun it is. As for the price of standard I don't remember shocks cost 40-60 dollars. That might be because I got my playsets early. It is hard to argue that standard and even modern aren't insanely cheaper....have you see the price of moat lol.
I would hope Slip wouldn't be stupid enough to miss out on the fact that comparing X amount of PTQs this season with X amount of PTQs of Extended Season would show skewed results.
I'm pretty sure total participation IS down.
I thought that was going to be implemented next year? I wouldn't notice the difference because PTQs have been at stores for years here. Ever seen 250 nerds packed into a 40x40x10 space? What is even more awkward is when you get 3 big guys all sitting at adjacent tables.... sweaty fat rolls all touching....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Another point of interest: When I went to a fairly LARGE amount of scg weekends last year, not a single modern side event ever fired, so I can only assume this interest in modern isnt quite there.
Since then I have given up on modern (used to have 10-12 for local... now none show)... I do believe the main culprit is Wotc themselves. Their bans happen to quickly and dont even given the format enough time to self regulate and instead winning means your deck is next up on the chopping block.
The bans and the ridiculous secondary market. Looking at the PTQ numbers thus far they are less than half of what extended ptqs were a few years ago. I guess the format could pick up, but noone other than PTQ grinders really have any need for this format. Legacy is more fun and standard is cheaper. That about covers the spread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
It's really weird because when you think about it; if say a 30 dollar 'intro to modern deck' with a Goyf and a Shockland in it were printed in a large amount and given to places like Wal-Mart, Target, and B&M hobby stores; they'd fly right off the shelves.
It'd make it much easier for new players to get into Modern, WotC would sell a ridiculous amount of product and I'm willing to bet Tourny attendance would be very high.
But, i don't know much about running a company, i suppose.
I have often said this, but the powers that be are too busy making sure that the secondary market stays intact mostly for SCG I believe. It honestly seems that wotc is actually ran by SCG they listen to them.
You don't want to devalue cards like that overnight. They did it once with Chronicles and burned a lot of people very badly. The decks sold in Wal-Mart/Target aren't aimed at the tournament crowd, and they don't like it when they're scavenged for parts by competitive players.
MTG doesn't have the collectors appeal that it used to. Let the collectors have their reserved list, but card from RAV and UP should be made more affordable secondary market be damned. Also why would wotc care if people scavenge from their products? A tournament players money has the same weight as a noobs or a casual players. Several people argue that wotc is messing up modern to increase attendance to increase cash flow yet they would care who's money they took? It seems illogical that both of these could be true in tandem.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Ahem. Dual Decks, Planechase, Commander, From the Vault, Premium Deck Series, Archenemy... WotC has its hands all over the secondary market. And it is through these products that they will reprint many of the Modern staples that are too powerful for Standard: Goyf, Engineered Explosives, V-Clique, Shocklands, etc. WotC has an easy way to make a lot of money off Modern.
kind of I guess. It is rather unfortunate that wotc isn't trying to cash grab the heck out of modern. I just don't know how many expensive staples are going to be in these things because reprints are bad for companies like SCG who can make more money off of selling goyfs for ~110 than selling something that can be mass produced which means that they can't artificially inflate the market.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
its not capped, not at ALL. I've seen more and more new players coming out to events duals ready to play a competitive game. at SCGLA I met like 7 people that had JUST finished trading/buying their last dual they needed to play their deck.
there are 9 pages of revised duals on ebay right now, go to MTG traders and there are even more. If you're claiming every staple is in someones hand and no one can buy FoW karakas, etc etc then you're wrong. Legacy is far from capped.
IMO your wrong. Even a format like modern has a soft-cap because we only have so many of the best cards(goyf) floating around. The reason legacy is hard-capped is because the reserve list. Sure this might a large number do to deck variety, but it is not possible for legacy to grow to say...standard levels for this reason.
Your point about wotc making money off of modern is quite true. Other than the PTQ tournaments and GP tournaments wotc doesn't make money specifically on modern as they have no claim to the secondary market.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Limited tournies move product someone has to buy. Not so much for constructed tournies.
This. They by the packs from wotc at like 2 bucks(or less) a pack then turn around and sell them for 4-5. This is part of the reason why a limited PTQ season exist. It will typically have fewer participants, but it is only format that wotc makes direct money on.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
^I never said I thought the metagame was unhealthy. Just pointing out to Solaran_X and Feaor that the "best deck in Legacy" in a healthy diverse metagame is never the best for long if you consider archetypes using BS + FoW blue decks as diverse, which I am okay with. Maybe they were trying to provide support that Legacy can have all deck types represented whereas Modern is still lacking a tier blue control deck and that this diversity in Legacy contributes to it being more popular?
Correct. A good meta is one that is fluid which legacy would be if it had more support. It is hard to get a bead on the meta without a ptq season of 2/3 tournaments(paper at least competitive REL) a week. people fail to realize that control being in the meta not only puts control in the meta, but puts the decks that beat control in the meta. A very wise man once said every action has an equal and opposite reaction; such is true in physics and magic.
This leads to my point after tons of talk. I don't think SCG is going to touch modern with a 10,000,000,000,000,ft pole. It is bad for business especially if it fails. Also legacy has a cult following, but how much modern do people actually thing is going to be played in between seasons? Wotc was fast to attempt to fix extended for this same reason. Attendance was very good during the season and right before the season these forums were hopping. It was viewed as a failure because it wasn't standard because it took a high skill level to play, and it went back a ways. Standard will always be the most popular format, and legacy will always have a better cult following. modern right now has no real identity because there is no more virtual meat left on the bone. Maybe this is why wotc is trying to turn modern into mostly creature based although that will make it fail just the same as an all spell based format.
tl:dr
Legacy is going to have more steady ratings throughout the year, and the possibility of modern failing(by wotc's standards) is quite high. Also didn't SCG have a bet on OE in the OE vs modern horse race?
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Currently it is Maverick (29 tops) followed by RUG tempo (28 tops) with Stoneblade + Reanimator at 19 tops. The ONLY reasons that Maverick is doing well is because it has a decent (55ish?) matchup against the other 3 decks and because it is relatively cheap to build (no blue duals). Maverick has a very bad storm combo + Nic Fit matchup and I do not believe that Maverick will have the most tops in the coming months. Only thing keeping these Storm + Nic Fit decks out are the U/x decks.
which is how a meta is supposed to work. You might see that as broken, but that is how big boy magic is supposed to be. Not just a midrange crap fest like modern is shaping into.
Also it isn't like hate don't exist that maveric can run.... this but they have FoW is a bad argument because they won't always have force of will, and maveric puts them on a pretty tight clock which means they might have to pull the trigger a little early while wading through hate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
the problem with having all three is that there aren't 3 days in a weekend, so they can't have all 3 on a weekend... or they could have legacy on the same day as modern, but that would draw some people away from legacy. or they could have it on the same day as standard, but that would be a hell of a lot more people showing up for Saturday than Sunday.
i agree with prosistheplumber's points and fureak's about how legacy is where the money is at for SCG. they don't want to hurt the format at all, because if they do it will hurt them. that's good for me 'cause i'm somewhat investing in duals. but in any case, i think somehow incorporating modern into their events would be cool. i think the only thing that is keeping them from doing so is the question: how can we do this to better our company to the highest degree? my guess is that they haven't come to a decision on that.
this money makes the world go around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
well my argument that fun should = variety and legacy has more variety than modern because the larger card pool. This point is less subjective although when I play magic casually it is legacy using trice/mws/ or proxies with friends IRL.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I don't have a whole lot of experience with legacy beyond casually with friends.(MWS, trice, or proxies) I picked up a list and thought about building it and it had a moat. I was going through the prices and had a double take. Also I said that standard is cheaper. Sure over the course of like 5 years it is not, but you can build a standard deck at around tier 2 for ~150$.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Using the diversity = fun it is. As for the price of standard I don't remember shocks cost 40-60 dollars. That might be because I got my playsets early. It is hard to argue that standard and even modern aren't insanely cheaper....have you see the price of moat lol.
I thought that was going to be implemented next year? I wouldn't notice the difference because PTQs have been at stores for years here. Ever seen 250 nerds packed into a 40x40x10 space? What is even more awkward is when you get 3 big guys all sitting at adjacent tables.... sweaty fat rolls all touching....
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
The bans and the ridiculous secondary market. Looking at the PTQ numbers thus far they are less than half of what extended ptqs were a few years ago. I guess the format could pick up, but noone other than PTQ grinders really have any need for this format. Legacy is more fun and standard is cheaper. That about covers the spread.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I have often said this, but the powers that be are too busy making sure that the secondary market stays intact mostly for SCG I believe. It honestly seems that wotc is actually ran by SCG they listen to them.
MTG doesn't have the collectors appeal that it used to. Let the collectors have their reserved list, but card from RAV and UP should be made more affordable secondary market be damned. Also why would wotc care if people scavenge from their products? A tournament players money has the same weight as a noobs or a casual players. Several people argue that wotc is messing up modern to increase attendance to increase cash flow yet they would care who's money they took? It seems illogical that both of these could be true in tandem.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
kind of I guess. It is rather unfortunate that wotc isn't trying to cash grab the heck out of modern. I just don't know how many expensive staples are going to be in these things because reprints are bad for companies like SCG who can make more money off of selling goyfs for ~110 than selling something that can be mass produced which means that they can't artificially inflate the market.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
IMO your wrong. Even a format like modern has a soft-cap because we only have so many of the best cards(goyf) floating around. The reason legacy is hard-capped is because the reserve list. Sure this might a large number do to deck variety, but it is not possible for legacy to grow to say...standard levels for this reason.
Your point about wotc making money off of modern is quite true. Other than the PTQ tournaments and GP tournaments wotc doesn't make money specifically on modern as they have no claim to the secondary market.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
This. They by the packs from wotc at like 2 bucks(or less) a pack then turn around and sell them for 4-5. This is part of the reason why a limited PTQ season exist. It will typically have fewer participants, but it is only format that wotc makes direct money on.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Correct. A good meta is one that is fluid which legacy would be if it had more support. It is hard to get a bead on the meta without a ptq season of 2/3 tournaments(paper at least competitive REL) a week. people fail to realize that control being in the meta not only puts control in the meta, but puts the decks that beat control in the meta. A very wise man once said every action has an equal and opposite reaction; such is true in physics and magic.
This leads to my point after tons of talk. I don't think SCG is going to touch modern with a 10,000,000,000,000,ft pole. It is bad for business especially if it fails. Also legacy has a cult following, but how much modern do people actually thing is going to be played in between seasons? Wotc was fast to attempt to fix extended for this same reason. Attendance was very good during the season and right before the season these forums were hopping. It was viewed as a failure because it wasn't standard because it took a high skill level to play, and it went back a ways. Standard will always be the most popular format, and legacy will always have a better cult following. modern right now has no real identity because there is no more virtual meat left on the bone. Maybe this is why wotc is trying to turn modern into mostly creature based although that will make it fail just the same as an all spell based format.
tl:dr
Legacy is going to have more steady ratings throughout the year, and the possibility of modern failing(by wotc's standards) is quite high. Also didn't SCG have a bet on OE in the OE vs modern horse race?
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
which is how a meta is supposed to work. You might see that as broken, but that is how big boy magic is supposed to be. Not just a midrange crap fest like modern is shaping into.
Also it isn't like hate don't exist that maveric can run.... this but they have FoW is a bad argument because they won't always have force of will, and maveric puts them on a pretty tight clock which means they might have to pull the trigger a little early while wading through hate.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
this money makes the world go around.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson