I see what you're saying, and it makes sense obviously, but I don't think this deck needs to stick a 1-drop or you don't win. I piloted this deck to a 2nd place finish @ a GPT (cliques over reckoners) and it was nice sticking a turn 1 Delver, however, the deck runs enough burn, bounce, and removal to sit on any threat and ride it out. I had games where I'd stick a Geist and protect him, even Snapcaster sometimes too. If that were the case with this deck, it'd be running 4x Guide as well, which is doable, but I don't think it's unreasonable drop a threat turn 3-4 and protect him there. There's enough tempo in the deck to get there (and I did so with this build)
Im switching up my list, but am still running Delver, basically just having a SB plan for decks with the early removal (Kor Firewalker)
Has anyone playtested with Boros Reckoner yet? Holy crap. Dude is awesome, haha. Especially if you run the Charms in tandem with him, makes him very hard to deal with. Considering the vast majority of removal is red and burn-oriented, if they don't have Terminate/Path to Exile, he becomes a significant problem for them.
Here's what Im switching up to MB
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Boros Reckoner
Im considering dropping one Vapor Snag for one more Reckoner. Haven't decided if 2 is the proper # of him yet cuz you've got Geist @ the 3 spot already, and running anything less than 4 Geist is just silly.
If you can stick a Delver turn 1 and he survives, you're ok, but I will agree with Dualsider in that there is a good deal of removal to deal with him early on, Bolt, Path, Electrolyze, etc... gets a little annoying, haha. I played in a PTQ 2 weekends ago and got 2nd with a build that ran 4 Delver, 4 Snap, 4 Geist, and 2 Vendillion Clique as the creature suite. Playing against UWR Midrange or Control was problematic for Delver, but I came prepared for that sideboard. I was siding out the Delvers in favor of Kor Firewalker, he's good against RDW, and it leaves him only being able to be killed with Path to Exile, a 3-4 of in most decks. That worked out just fine for me, not saying that it is an optimal idea, but it definitely worked. I approached the deck as a tempo deck and wanted to play Delver regardless cuz like I said, you stick him, you're doing ok. Plus, I did run into many situations in the first couple turns where they'd have to fetch for a shock land to use Bolt or Path, so I was still making them lose 3 life, even if it wasn't me being able to swing him.
Against anything other than UWR Midrange/Control, I think it's safe to run him, but that's very meta-dependent
Counterflux would go to the SB then. I've got enough creature removal/bounce to where I could get away with it, and remand can tempo them off their bigger threats, while I keep my board advantage. I've got a PTQ this Saturday so I need to make a decision soon. Im leaning towards Minscensor/Clique cuz they trump some decks, but Grim has reach, etc...
I wanna fit him in somewhere but not sure how, it hurts ppl who play fetches and shocks (which is everyone basically) and if he comes down early enough, I think with how the deck plays, it's obviously more in favor for you.
I guess if the deck becomes more of a problem then I could do Supreme Verdict SB, but I don't think the deck is that terribly popular, obviously it has posted results, but that's literally the only one Ive seen of all the tournaments I've been to.
Buddy of mine suggested Izzet Staticaster, which is a big DUH, he is good against other decks as well in the format, so he's an auto-include, just gotta watch out for the anthems and then it seems a bit more favorable, save PTE for Hero and Champions.
Proposed SB
3 Izzet Staticaster
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Steel Sabotage
2 Echoing Truth (blood moon, tokens)
3 Shadow of Doubt
Lectrys - I did decide on Wednesday night/Thursday morning that I was gonna play on Sunday so getting fetches off of someone was gonna be a tad difficult, manabase did work, just wasn't 100% optimal, I do need to cut out some and add fetches, reason I had so many shocks was cuz I needed a reliable turn 1 island for Delver, but yea definitely will make room for some as well as plains and Eiganjo Castle
I think Sulfur Elemental is a bit iffy, they run lots of anthem effects so they're bound to stick one, Ill playtest it, but Im not sure on it. Engineered Explosives sounds like the safest bet to get rid of the Champion, that and Path, they just pump out so many dudes it's hard to keep up once you lose steam. That was the problem with the matchup, after the game got to mid-late, I couldn't keep up, either just have to play smarter or have something like EE to save the day.
2 Delay
2 Negate
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Steel Sabotage
1 Aurelia's Fury
I went 4-0-1 in the swiss rounds
Round 1 (2-0) Robots - I wasn't terribly concerned about this matchup 'cuz she wasn't a very experienced player, plus I don't think the deck has a bad matchup against it. I got Guttersnipe online game 1 and burned it out, then game 2 I sided in +3 Sabotage -2 Counterflux - 1 Azorius Charm and that was more than enough bounce and counter stuff to make the matchup go by quickly.
round 2 (2-1) - I played against a more midrange approach of UWR, he was running Electrolyze, Snaps, Mindcensor, Thundermaw as a 1-of, Clique, etc... traditional staightforward list. I got manascrewed game 1 against him and I think the biggest factor of how I came out on top of this one was having both charms available and snags to get rid of his guys as well as protecting my dudes with Boros Charm. I also made a pretty ballsy call after him having every turn 1 answer to Delver and sided them out for the Firewalker, which was a HUGE help, small life gain on top of him having only PTE as an out against me.
Round 3 (2-0) Splinter Twin Combo - I hate playing against this deck cuz you have to play very cautiously to not leave yourself open to the combo, constantly leaving PTE mana up and protecting yourself that way. Besides that, as long as I applied early pressure with Delver or Snaps (burn, then flashback the burn and continue the beats) it really wasn't difficult, this is a skill matchup and you cannot leave yourself open to anything. Im not sure if he was running the traditional decklist, he had 3 MB Skite, 4 Twin, 1 Kiki-Jiki, and 8 Mite/Exarch, I sided -2 Snag for +2 Negate as well, little more protection.
Round 4 (2-0) RDW (more creature-heavy version) - This is matchup I wasn't terribly sure about, and the guy I played against was my friend who I know is a good pilot of it. I came prepared for this one though which was pretty apparent with 4 Firewalker SB and the 4 MB Charm to give my team Lifelink and tempo his dudes. I wouldn't say it's a difficult matchup whatsoever, they have to deal with Delver so that takes away some of their burn to your face instead, plus Helix/Charm + Snaps for lifegain offset is pretty crucial. I had both games where I Charm'd my team to gain life, plus one game with GoST lifelinking and that sealed the deal. I ended up SBing +4 Walker +2 Negate -2 Snipe - 2 Counterflux - 2 Vapor Snag. I spent the first 3-4 turns on my heels pretty hard but once you stabilize with some of the lifegain to offset, RDW sputters too hard IMO, plus no real answers for GoST.
Round 5 - ID with BW Tokens
Round 1 Top 8 (2-0) - Splinter Twin - Different guy, got screwed on mana both games but Im not terribly concerned with this matchup even after SB cuz of counterflux and negate.
Round 2 Top 8 (2-0) - UWR Midrange (same guy as before) - We actually only got game 1 under our belts and he scooped to me, just wanted credit and wasn't gonna use the 3 round bye anyways so I was pretty happy. Similar comments above, I actually got to stick a Delver this game and eventually got my 3rd GoST to stick after we blew up each others GoST with our others. Definitely have to be the aggressor in this matchup with the snags and charms, Boros gives that little boost of damage and I was more than happy to save my team a couple times from chump blocking and electrolyzing, having it as cover for GoST is reason enough to run the card.
Finals - (0-2) BW Tokens - I was a bit more confident in this matchup than the results show, but this deck is fairly problematic, as I don't have much exposure to it. Early turns of IoK and Thoughtseize and Sculler was difficult to get around, plus I couldn't stick a guy to save my life, my error, didn't leave proper mana up to protect guys or just ran them out too early. Game 1 I basically pooched to him, that BW card that gives all your dudes -1-1 and his +1+1 was ouch for snaps and unflipped delver, then I wasted my paths early on and didn't have one for his Hero of Bladehold, I have no real way of dealing with that unless I outrace him or have removal. Game 2 was much much closer, but an incredibly problematic card that came up was Auriok Champion. Couldn't counter them, and I didn't have enough PTE's to deal with them, esp against tokens where he can gain life with creatures willy nilly was bad. I had @ one point on time 3 Helix, 2 Boros Charm, 1 Snaps and 1 Bolt in hand and still lost cuz the Champions (he had 3 by the end of the game) kept him in it. Also the Anthem effect enchantments are super gay, haha, definitely helped his case, definitely don't feel like I shoulda won it regardless cuz I wasn't familiar with the deck, nor did I have a proper SB for it, bummed I didn't get the 3 byes but getting credit to get shocks/duals was nice.
So ok, questions about some stuff, what do we do against BW Tokens other than more successfully race them? I feel it's an obtainable matchup, just not sure how, Auriok Champion is a huge stressor.
Could someone please redo my mana base or give some suggestions? It's 22 lands, and I would like to work more basics into it cuz of PTE and Blood Moon, which would absolutely wreck me. 2 Colonnade seems about the right amount, card is very good mid-late game, also considering a Slayer's Stronghold or Eiganjo Castle, more the Castle for GoST.
Guttersnipe was insane when I actually landed him, but I wasn't able to land him very often, which sucked. The games I untapped with him on board I won, but only having 2 was tough, plus when I did draw him, I really wanted GoST, he seems to win more effectively and is way harder to deal with.
Boros Charm was awesome, I was happy to see it basically always, depending on the situation I could save my team or fling 4 damage @ their face. Azorius Charm as well was a card I was very pleased to see, the utility of it is just so great, early game topping a creature or late game drawing or lifelinking your team is pretty big, definitely gonna stick with it as a 4-of for now.
I definitely wanted more PTE, and will adjust the list accordingly for that, and definitely want more GoST, he just wins games, esp with all the 1-mana removal stuff I have on top of Snaps for recursion.
Im not sure the deck needs counterflux MB, and if Im gonna run it MB, I wanna run it as a 2-of, that as a singleton just seems weird, but for now I think Ill keep it as a 1-of and see how it plays. Does 3 snags seem too much? I was gonna 3-3 split on PTE and Snag but not sure, I feel PTE is better in most scenarios.
updated list
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
So ok Im running Delver with Guttersnipe. I think the card is incredibly underrated, and if you untap with it out, you basically win or get them really close to dead.
3 Guttersnipe
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
Cards Im iffy on are possibly Counterflux and Think Twice. TT keeps digging and triggers 'Snipe, and Flux is the no nonsense spell. Azorius Charm tempos really well, gives me outs to bigger guys, lifegain, and I cycle through it if I really don't need it.
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Has anyone playtested with Boros Reckoner yet? Holy crap. Dude is awesome, haha. Especially if you run the Charms in tandem with him, makes him very hard to deal with. Considering the vast majority of removal is red and burn-oriented, if they don't have Terminate/Path to Exile, he becomes a significant problem for them.
Here's what Im switching up to MB
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
3 Boros Charm
4 Azorius Charm
4 Remand
3 Vapor Snag
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Hallowed Fountains
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Fetchlands
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
Im considering dropping one Vapor Snag for one more Reckoner. Haven't decided if 2 is the proper # of him yet cuz you've got Geist @ the 3 spot already, and running anything less than 4 Geist is just silly.
Against anything other than UWR Midrange/Control, I think it's safe to run him, but that's very meta-dependent
My current version only runs 12 creatures, does anyone see that as a problem? I've been thinking of doing:
-2 Counterflux
+2 Grim Lavamancer/Vendillion Clique/Aven Mindcensor
Counterflux would go to the SB then. I've got enough creature removal/bounce to where I could get away with it, and remand can tempo them off their bigger threats, while I keep my board advantage. I've got a PTQ this Saturday so I need to make a decision soon. Im leaning towards Minscensor/Clique cuz they trump some decks, but Grim has reach, etc...
Zo-Zu the Punisher
I wanna fit him in somewhere but not sure how, it hurts ppl who play fetches and shocks (which is everyone basically) and if he comes down early enough, I think with how the deck plays, it's obviously more in favor for you.
Thoughts? I will be testing him here shortly.
Buddy of mine suggested Izzet Staticaster, which is a big DUH, he is good against other decks as well in the format, so he's an auto-include, just gotta watch out for the anthems and then it seems a bit more favorable, save PTE for Hero and Champions.
Proposed SB
3 Izzet Staticaster
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Steel Sabotage
2 Echoing Truth (blood moon, tokens)
3 Shadow of Doubt
I think Sulfur Elemental is a bit iffy, they run lots of anthem effects so they're bound to stick one, Ill playtest it, but Im not sure on it. Engineered Explosives sounds like the safest bet to get rid of the Champion, that and Path, they just pump out so many dudes it's hard to keep up once you lose steam. That was the problem with the matchup, after the game got to mid-late, I couldn't keep up, either just have to play smarter or have something like EE to save the day.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Guttersnipe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
3 Boros Charm
4 Azorius Charm
4 Remand
3 Vapor Snag
2 Counterflux
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Hallowed Fountains
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Cliff Top Retreat
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Delay
2 Negate
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Steel Sabotage
1 Aurelia's Fury
I went 4-0-1 in the swiss rounds
Round 1 (2-0) Robots - I wasn't terribly concerned about this matchup 'cuz she wasn't a very experienced player, plus I don't think the deck has a bad matchup against it. I got Guttersnipe online game 1 and burned it out, then game 2 I sided in +3 Sabotage -2 Counterflux - 1 Azorius Charm and that was more than enough bounce and counter stuff to make the matchup go by quickly.
round 2 (2-1) - I played against a more midrange approach of UWR, he was running Electrolyze, Snaps, Mindcensor, Thundermaw as a 1-of, Clique, etc... traditional staightforward list. I got manascrewed game 1 against him and I think the biggest factor of how I came out on top of this one was having both charms available and snags to get rid of his guys as well as protecting my dudes with Boros Charm. I also made a pretty ballsy call after him having every turn 1 answer to Delver and sided them out for the Firewalker, which was a HUGE help, small life gain on top of him having only PTE as an out against me.
Round 3 (2-0) Splinter Twin Combo - I hate playing against this deck cuz you have to play very cautiously to not leave yourself open to the combo, constantly leaving PTE mana up and protecting yourself that way. Besides that, as long as I applied early pressure with Delver or Snaps (burn, then flashback the burn and continue the beats) it really wasn't difficult, this is a skill matchup and you cannot leave yourself open to anything. Im not sure if he was running the traditional decklist, he had 3 MB Skite, 4 Twin, 1 Kiki-Jiki, and 8 Mite/Exarch, I sided -2 Snag for +2 Negate as well, little more protection.
Round 4 (2-0) RDW (more creature-heavy version) - This is matchup I wasn't terribly sure about, and the guy I played against was my friend who I know is a good pilot of it. I came prepared for this one though which was pretty apparent with 4 Firewalker SB and the 4 MB Charm to give my team Lifelink and tempo his dudes. I wouldn't say it's a difficult matchup whatsoever, they have to deal with Delver so that takes away some of their burn to your face instead, plus Helix/Charm + Snaps for lifegain offset is pretty crucial. I had both games where I Charm'd my team to gain life, plus one game with GoST lifelinking and that sealed the deal. I ended up SBing +4 Walker +2 Negate -2 Snipe - 2 Counterflux - 2 Vapor Snag. I spent the first 3-4 turns on my heels pretty hard but once you stabilize with some of the lifegain to offset, RDW sputters too hard IMO, plus no real answers for GoST.
Round 5 - ID with BW Tokens
Round 1 Top 8 (2-0) - Splinter Twin - Different guy, got screwed on mana both games but Im not terribly concerned with this matchup even after SB cuz of counterflux and negate.
Round 2 Top 8 (2-0) - UWR Midrange (same guy as before) - We actually only got game 1 under our belts and he scooped to me, just wanted credit and wasn't gonna use the 3 round bye anyways so I was pretty happy. Similar comments above, I actually got to stick a Delver this game and eventually got my 3rd GoST to stick after we blew up each others GoST with our others. Definitely have to be the aggressor in this matchup with the snags and charms, Boros gives that little boost of damage and I was more than happy to save my team a couple times from chump blocking and electrolyzing, having it as cover for GoST is reason enough to run the card.
Finals - (0-2) BW Tokens - I was a bit more confident in this matchup than the results show, but this deck is fairly problematic, as I don't have much exposure to it. Early turns of IoK and Thoughtseize and Sculler was difficult to get around, plus I couldn't stick a guy to save my life, my error, didn't leave proper mana up to protect guys or just ran them out too early. Game 1 I basically pooched to him, that BW card that gives all your dudes -1-1 and his +1+1 was ouch for snaps and unflipped delver, then I wasted my paths early on and didn't have one for his Hero of Bladehold, I have no real way of dealing with that unless I outrace him or have removal. Game 2 was much much closer, but an incredibly problematic card that came up was Auriok Champion. Couldn't counter them, and I didn't have enough PTE's to deal with them, esp against tokens where he can gain life with creatures willy nilly was bad. I had @ one point on time 3 Helix, 2 Boros Charm, 1 Snaps and 1 Bolt in hand and still lost cuz the Champions (he had 3 by the end of the game) kept him in it. Also the Anthem effect enchantments are super gay, haha, definitely helped his case, definitely don't feel like I shoulda won it regardless cuz I wasn't familiar with the deck, nor did I have a proper SB for it, bummed I didn't get the 3 byes but getting credit to get shocks/duals was nice.
So ok, questions about some stuff, what do we do against BW Tokens other than more successfully race them? I feel it's an obtainable matchup, just not sure how, Auriok Champion is a huge stressor.
Could someone please redo my mana base or give some suggestions? It's 22 lands, and I would like to work more basics into it cuz of PTE and Blood Moon, which would absolutely wreck me. 2 Colonnade seems about the right amount, card is very good mid-late game, also considering a Slayer's Stronghold or Eiganjo Castle, more the Castle for GoST.
Guttersnipe was insane when I actually landed him, but I wasn't able to land him very often, which sucked. The games I untapped with him on board I won, but only having 2 was tough, plus when I did draw him, I really wanted GoST, he seems to win more effectively and is way harder to deal with.
Boros Charm was awesome, I was happy to see it basically always, depending on the situation I could save my team or fling 4 damage @ their face. Azorius Charm as well was a card I was very pleased to see, the utility of it is just so great, early game topping a creature or late game drawing or lifelinking your team is pretty big, definitely gonna stick with it as a 4-of for now.
I definitely wanted more PTE, and will adjust the list accordingly for that, and definitely want more GoST, he just wins games, esp with all the 1-mana removal stuff I have on top of Snaps for recursion.
Im not sure the deck needs counterflux MB, and if Im gonna run it MB, I wanna run it as a 2-of, that as a singleton just seems weird, but for now I think Ill keep it as a 1-of and see how it plays. Does 3 snags seem too much? I was gonna 3-3 split on PTE and Snag but not sure, I feel PTE is better in most scenarios.
updated list
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Boros Charm
4 Azorius Charm
4 Remand
3 Vapor Snag
1 Counterflux
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Hallowed Fountains
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Cliff Top Retreat
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 ?
2 Negate
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Steel Sabotage
1 Counterflux
3 Guttersnipe
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
3 Boros Charm
4 Azorius Charm
4 Think Twice
4 Remand
2 Counterflux
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Hallowed Fountains
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Cliff Top Retreat
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Island
1 Mountain
Cards Im iffy on are possibly Counterflux and Think Twice. TT keeps digging and triggers 'Snipe, and Flux is the no nonsense spell. Azorius Charm tempos really well, gives me outs to bigger guys, lifegain, and I cycle through it if I really don't need it.