Hi fellow Jeskai Delver players. I have been testing Experimental Frenzy in my sideboard against grindy matchups and have to say it has been very good, if not, great. I have always struggled to find something to side in against Abzan and Jund after Celestial Purge. I think this is the card we needed. Has anyone else tried it yet?
I will say your deck has to be a bit more aggro because Experimental frenzy is not great with counter magic. So if your deck is counter magic heavy it may not work. Let me know what you all think.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hey guys, published a piece this morning on my recent experiments with Jeskai Delver. It covers the 13-threat build and the Steppe Lynx build. Read it here:
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Ok, Chart a Course, do we have time to durdle around with it? It should be awesome in slow and grindy matchups, obviously, but how about the fast ones? Any experience?
I think it should require at least 8 one-drop creatures, as only 4 delvers doesn't make it consistent. It has anti-synergy with Swiftspear, so maybe in a Steppe Lynx-build? The extra card draw from chart should fuel him good. Gonna try something like this, I think:
I've always been turned off by the tension between Delver and Steppe --- one requires us to play many i/s, the other many lands, and a successful Delver shell in UWx probably wants Queller and Snapcaster, meaning it's tough to fit all that stuff. But I also love Lynx's implications with Chart a Course (makes drawing fetchlands great again) and think you may be on to something here. I'll mess around too; the primary question I think we should look to answer is what the optimal numbers are for creatures/spells/lands. Once/if we find an internally consistent shell, we can consider matchups etc.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
So I'll be honest after thinking about it for a little, Modern doesn't reward you for 2 for 1ing yourself. That's one of the reasons I don't really like shoal.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I have been testing with similar builds for the past couple weeks and came to the following conclusions:
- The 4 Snap/4 Queller/4 Delver suite can support 4 Chart.
- A Leak/Knot split improves our odds vs big mana and enables RiP from the side.
- 20 lands a necessary evil. With all the Snap/Queller we can't afford to play non-Serum one-mana cantrips, so shaving some not in the stars.
- Shoal is amazing in this deck. It plugs our early-game holes against more proactive opponents while being ultra-reliable in this shell (all blue creatures). Easy to hardcast later bc 20 lands.
- Geist an option for the SB but I haven't wanted it yet.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hey guys- I've been playing UWR in Modern for a very long time. I started with UWR Draw-Go, and then got into Nahiri when she was printed. Played her for a while, and then Jeskai fell off the map a bit for a few months. During that time, I screwed around with Jeskai Delver, as well as UW and Esper Control. Over the summer, Jonathan Rosum got top 8 at four Opens in a row with a Jeskai Tempo list, and I immediately bought into it and started playing it. Harlan won the Open a few weeks later, and I was sold. Currently playing his list at the moment, but I have always been interested in Jeskai decks that are a bit off that radar (like Jeskai Pyromancer Ascension). I have a Delver list that I'd like some critique on. Thanks!
As a side note, I haven't tested Chart much, but on paper it looks insane. Has anyone tested it, and how has it performed?
This list looks quite good to me. I like how Delver draws fire away from your later Quellers for interactive matchups, and combines with Queller to adequately pressure linear decks. Both are also great with Chart, and it's nice that a T3 Queller leads smoothly into a T4 raided Chart + two-mana disruptive spell.
You're (correctly) giving up Colonnade to accommodate Delver, so my question would be how has that trade been working out? Do you find yourself missing the manland often? Which matchups do you struggle with?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
So I initially started playing this deck because Zoo/Burn and Infect was everywhere, and Lightning Helix is just incredible against them. Over time, I got good at the deck, and learned how to play it well even as the meta has shifted into a less favourable (but still decent) place. This is really a counter-burn deck, harkening back to the old days of the game, and Lightning Helix is the key piece to helping us win the race.
Regarding problem creatures - as a traditionally control player, I had the same feeling about Goyfs at first, but I've realized over time that I've really underestimated the value of Snapcaster Mage in this deck, as it effectively turns all your burn spells into 5 damage when you're on defense, helping to overcome the card disadvantage of having to deal with Goyf, Tasigur, and Finks. Meanwhile, my preferred method of dealing with these creatures is simply by chumping with elemental tokens. It's certainly possible to get overrun in a multiple-goyf scenario, but the deck is packed with ways of delaying your opponent's beatdown while poking in and praying for decent topdecks (which frankly is almost every draw - it is alarmingly consistent).
You make a good point though, that if you're not going to play Path (which you rightly identified as being best with efficient ground attackers), and lightning helix isn't important in the meta, sticking to UR is certainly a better option. My deck is unique in that it doesn't play Delver , and to be honest in straight UR I don't think I would either (imo it's just not a card without brainstorm). Using my list as an example, Swiftspears would replace the Lavamancer, the Clique, and two Helices, and the remaining two Helices and Path would be replaced by something like Forked Bolt-4th Vapor Snag-Staggershock. I could see cutting the Spell Pierces too.
Anyways, all that said, I'm going to do my best at SCG Syracuse tomorrow to disprove your statement that Jeskai Delver is so bad.
If you want to beat aggro, you're better off just running more Bolt effects in UR (and maybe reaching into something like Dragon's Claw for the SB) than splashing white for Helix IMO. Good luck tomorrow.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This is a matter of debate, but I'm of the view that Path is tempo-negative. It's a more complex calculation than [cost of thing being killed] - [cost of kill spell] when there's other factors at play. If I Path a Goyf on T2 (a bad idea - at least wait for upkeep, but for the sake of the example), they can untap and cast two more Goyfs. All of a sudden, I've put their ability to play their game further ahead of mine than it already was. That to me is tempo-negative. Path is a good deal on the turn you play it, but bites you in the ass soon thereafter.
For the same reason, I would describe any ramp spells as tempo-positive.
You're probably not going to beat three Goyfs anyway, but if you combine multiple tempo-positive spells (i.e. Path, Snare, Snapcaster-Path/Snare) you might have a chance. How is Lightning Helix going to do anything against a Goyf again?
Path is a really interesting card because it does help opponents with their development, essentially giving them tempo. But it also hard-removes a threat for an unbeatable price. The problem with Jeskai Delver decks in general is that it can't present a fast enough clock to take advantage of the board impact you can make with a Path before opponents can take advantage of their extra mana. If these colors had better threats, or more efficient ground beaters (i.e. Wild Nacatl), Path would be much better here. But Path is still the main reason to be in white at all. This is the main reason Jeskai Delver is so bad.
I think if the colors are going to work, players need to go all-in on aggression with cards like Monastery Swiftspear. But in that scenario, there's still little reason to not just be UR with Vapor Snag and a much stronger manabase (Jeskai colors have one of the weakest in Modern).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Path is the main card that defines a Jeskai build as either tempo or control. For me, the main reason for running white is Lightning Helix, because I get 4 extra bolts and they are a huge boon versus aggro decks. A control deck on the other hand would prefer only maybe 2 helixes, no snags, and paths, as they build towards dominating the late game.
A tempo version, by contrast, is focused 100% on stalling the opponent while pecking in damage and gradually developing a board. You can still win in the late game, but generally if your opponent has gotten most of their cards onto the board, you're in trouble. Remand is the best card in the tempo deck, and Path is kind of at odds with it, as it helps them replay the thing. You want your opponent to die with 3-4 cards in hand that they've been desperate to resolve.
Anyways, as you mention, both Kitchen Finks and Wurmcoil Engine are big problem creatures for this deck, but I still don't want to run extra paths for them. Vapor Snag does a good impression on the Wurmcoil, especially because you can use it to forgive an earlier turn's tapout and instead go Vapor Snag-Remand. Finks on the other hand is a fairly poor snag target usually, but I've found that it's not as bad a threat as I initially thought because Snapcaster Mage helps make up the card advantage you lose killing it with bolts.
My favourite anti-finks play? They attack, I flash in Snapcaster, target Electrolyze in my graveyard, block the finks with Snap, then kill the second half with Electrolyze with the other point of damage going upstairs or at a bird or something. That's actually one card ahead of the Finks - although their 4 life matters too. I realise that play is unreliable to set up, but it's an example of a way you can fight through Finks without giving the game away.
Surgical Extraction is another terrific option that I'll bring in almost every time against a Finks deck.
Anyways, back to the control tempo consideration - you really need to pick one. If you want to run 4 Paths, I'd suggest you look at Jeskai Nahiri lists instead.
My one Path is my least favourite card in the deck, but it's a necessary evil sometimes.
What? Path to Exile is frequently the most tempo-positive removal spell in Modern.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I have Been testing a version with 19 lands and I am putting up pretty good results against T1 and T2 decks (jund, tron, naya zoo).
But against jund I figured that the matches are taking quite long, I am getting 6+ lands in most games and often times it's just draw go, or Young Pyromancer with bolt and remand or other back up.
my question is, have any of you tried out a one of off Sphinx's Revelation for grindy games.
It is not TC, but it could give us some needed card advantage in the grindy games.
what are your thoughts on this?
You can also board out lands against Jund if this is a problem for you.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This won't be enough to make the deck good again, but Unsubstantiate is probably the best 2-mana counter that we could possibly have.
1 mana is not worth the added flexibility of half a Remand on Unsummon. This card seems really terrible to me.
How so? Sure, it doesn't draw a card, but being able to bounce creatures or spells is really flexible. Besides, it also can "counter" Abrupt Decay, so that is useful.
Not flexible enough to cost twice as much mana. Simic Charm is a good example of an Unsummon with enough extra flexibility to merit the extra mana. It too counters Decay, but it also: doubles as reach when you're attacking, grows creatures like Geist or Nacatl past blockers like Tasigur and Goyf, and saves your creatures from Vedalken Shackles activations, as well as protect your creatures from anything you would want to "counter" with Unsubstantiate (opponents can just cast this card again, even if they have to wait a turn to do it). Unsubstantiate really doesn't measure up.
Another good indicator of how bad this card is: Venser, Shaper Savant. This creature costs two more mana and gives us Unsubstantiate on a body. Two mana is usually worth an added-on body; see Snapcaster Mage, Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, and Eternal Witness, all of which see Modern play. Venser, however, sees no play. It's obviously not exactly the same scenario as the other examples, but considering all the synergies creatures have in Modern with cards like Restoration Angel, Chord of Calling, etc., it kind of speaks to how weak Unsubstantiate's effect actually is in this format, even at one mana. Vapor Snag, an upgradedUnsummon, sees fringe play already.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Here’s why Mentor fails in Modern: It doesn’t unconditionally provide value upon resolution, and dies to both Bolt and Decay.
There are SOME three-drops that don’t unconditionally provide value upon resolution and still see play in Modern, but they pass the Bolt test (and usually, also the Decay test). Still, these creatures are fringe at best (Courser of Kruphix is one).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Interesting - Pillar of Flame over Magma Spray? Flexibility to go upstairs is worth the speed difference? Wouldn't a Coco player just hold off to try to combo once they've seen it?
Our lists are extremely different, but I'm hesitant to run Ancestral Visions in mine. I'm considering it in the side for control matchups, but I think I actually prefer Fevered Visions there.
Congrats on your strong finishes. This is certainly an archetype that rewards expertise with the list.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
http://modernnexus.com/boremandos-enraged-brewing-jeskai-delver/
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Or do you have another explanation as to why Simian Spirit Guide, Goblin Guide, Faithless Looting, Surgical Extraction, Hollow One, Vapor Snag, Collective Brutality, Ghost Quarter, etc. etc. etc. are Modern staples? "Thinking about it for a little" is great, but I don't see how it compares to a) my hard experience or b) the hard fact that Modern decks frequently two-for-one themselves to great success.
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
- The 4 Snap/4 Queller/4 Delver suite can support 4 Chart.
- A Leak/Knot split improves our odds vs big mana and enables RiP from the side.
- 20 lands a necessary evil. With all the Snap/Queller we can't afford to play non-Serum one-mana cantrips, so shaving some not in the stars.
- Shoal is amazing in this deck. It plugs our early-game holes against more proactive opponents while being ultra-reliable in this shell (all blue creatures). Easy to hardcast later bc 20 lands.
- Geist an option for the SB but I haven't wanted it yet.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
1 Vendilion Clique
Instant (19)
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
1 Electrolyze
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
4 Chart a Course
Land (20)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Celestial Purge
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
You're (correctly) giving up Colonnade to accommodate Delver, so my question would be how has that trade been working out? Do you find yourself missing the manland often? Which matchups do you struggle with?
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Path is a really interesting card because it does help opponents with their development, essentially giving them tempo. But it also hard-removes a threat for an unbeatable price. The problem with Jeskai Delver decks in general is that it can't present a fast enough clock to take advantage of the board impact you can make with a Path before opponents can take advantage of their extra mana. If these colors had better threats, or more efficient ground beaters (i.e. Wild Nacatl), Path would be much better here. But Path is still the main reason to be in white at all. This is the main reason Jeskai Delver is so bad.
I think if the colors are going to work, players need to go all-in on aggression with cards like Monastery Swiftspear. But in that scenario, there's still little reason to not just be UR with Vapor Snag and a much stronger manabase (Jeskai colors have one of the weakest in Modern).
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Another good indicator of how bad this card is: Venser, Shaper Savant. This creature costs two more mana and gives us Unsubstantiate on a body. Two mana is usually worth an added-on body; see Snapcaster Mage, Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, and Eternal Witness, all of which see Modern play. Venser, however, sees no play. It's obviously not exactly the same scenario as the other examples, but considering all the synergies creatures have in Modern with cards like Restoration Angel, Chord of Calling, etc., it kind of speaks to how weak Unsubstantiate's effect actually is in this format, even at one mana. Vapor Snag, an upgraded Unsummon, sees fringe play already.
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
There are SOME three-drops that don’t unconditionally provide value upon resolution and still see play in Modern, but they pass the Bolt test (and usually, also the Decay test). Still, these creatures are fringe at best (Courser of Kruphix is one).
This article should help you evaluate creatures for Modern:
http://modernnexus.com/whats-goyf-benchmark-creature-playability-modern/
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy