Hi everyone, I am not sure how useful this will be as it seems like there are plenty of places to meet and discuss things with other #TeamGeist players, but I thought we could try it out.
The singletons of spell pierce and snare are interesting. I understand that charm overlaps with pierce a bit, but the single snare is not appealing to me. With so many recent decks to beat from GPs and SCG Regionals showcasing the power of 1cc discard and goyfs, plus tron, I think there could be some argument for running 2 Spell Pierce 2 Spell Snare in a 60.
What I've tried and always disliked is the two Serum Visions thing. Multiple rounds of Affinity, Jund Shadow, Abzan, all the Tron flavours, infect and/or misc. combo will eventually punish only having two cards that can look three deep for land. Besides hitting four lands by the fourth turn to keep up with well-sequenced aggro plays(e.g: helix+bolt+path, etc), getting to 6 or 7 lands in a reasonable amount of time is also key for stuff like Abzan, Jund(activating colonnade and playing spell) and even Blue Tron(counter-wars over burn).
2 Serum Visions is from old Team Geist builds that had serious issues with variance--this is from watching some very sad streams and personal experiences with the deck at multiple events. When everything happens according to plan, you're invincible, then lose the same match a few rounds later from not drawing enough of a particular card(be it land, threat, burn, removal or counter).
My point is that if your own results(practice matches and meaningful ones) tell you that two visions is sufficient, go with that, but if you start wondering where your seemingly unluckily close losses are coming, I'd start looking at massaging another copy of serum visions and maybe a few other cantrips into your build.
I worked very closely with the old TeamGeist guys, I guess you could say I was part of the team in that we had a chat to exchange all of our ideas etc. Anyway, I was the first person in that group to start playing Serum Visions. I liked it but I could never get those guys to agree with me and I wasn't sure enough in my decision to just do it anyway. Once Scotty stopped streaming and the TeamGeist buzz simmered down I ended up mostly tweaking the deck on my own. I was still on 4 Remands back in those days, and I think they helped the deck in the fact that I wasn't running the full four Serum Visions yet. I then saw a list in which someone made 29th at a tournament playing Geist with 4 Serum Visions. That bolstered my own opinions to up the count to three, and then finally four and I haven't looked back. The old deck used to loose itself for the exact reason you mentioned. The deck is just flat out more consistent and for that reason, better, with Serum Visions in it.
Whats peoples opinion on Serum Visions? I played a lot online over the weekend and it feels like a lot of games when I don't wanna cast it on turn 1/2/3 instead preferring to sit on bolt/path/mana leak. Also it very average cantrips in the first place comparing to Preordain/Ponders and all the other good banned things.
I've played without for years, and now with it for years. I can't see myself going back, the spell is too good to cut it. One mana look at three cards? Yes please.
Finally 5-0d a competitive league w/Jeskai Geist. I've 4-1d many & 5-0d the friendly/old leagues but none in the competitive. Glad to break the streak! #TeamGeist
Congrats!! That is awesome to hear. Did you record the league? I'd love to see those games.
Your list looks like it's evolved a bit since you last put out content. How are you liking the 3 Ancestral Visions in the sideboard? The singleton Remand looks out of place, would it be better as a second Negate?
I didn't record the league, but I could probably review the replays. I wanted to test Remand again based on the assumption that the meta has slowed down some, but I didn't want to go all-in in case I didn't like it. I figured with one I could evaluate it as if it was something else and take not of which would've been better. The AVs in the side have been indispensable in any grindy matchup and ones where you play the control role.
Finally 5-0d a competitive league w/Jeskai Geist. I've 4-1d many & 5-0d the friendly/old leagues but none in the competitive. Glad to break the streak! #TeamGeist
For anyone reading, I am off of Crumble to Dust. I've already come to this conclusion a long time ago, and there was really no reason to try it again. It's not consistent vs Valakut because they may not draw it before they Titan/Scapeshift you. It's too slow vs the amulet deck (which is seeing more play on MTGO). It's slow vs Tron and they can play around it by getting a Ghost Quarter. Now, if things do go right and you hit a Tron piece it can be lights out for them however, it's a waste of sideboard slots to bring Crumble in only for Tron. Aven Mindcensor is decent versus all of those decks, so I am sticking to the plan of disrupting them as best I can with counters/Aven Mindcensor and hoping that jamming Geist gets them dead. My next league will be this list.
Your sideboard only contains 14 cards. What are your plans for the 15th slot?
Finally 5-0d a competitive league w/Jeskai Geist. I've 4-1d many & 5-0d the friendly/old leagues but none in the competitive. Glad to break the streak! #TeamGeist
For anyone reading, I am off of Crumble to Dust. I've already come to this conclusion a long time ago, and there was really no reason to try it again. It's not consistent vs Valakut because they may not draw it before they Titan/Scapeshift you. It's too slow vs the amulet deck (which is seeing more play on MTGO). It's slow vs Tron and they can play around it by getting a Ghost Quarter. Now, if things do go right and you hit a Tron piece it can be lights out for them however, it's a waste of sideboard slots to bring Crumble in only for Tron. Aven Mindcensor is decent versus all of those decks, so I am sticking to the plan of disrupting them as best I can with counters/Aven Mindcensor and hoping that jamming Geist gets them dead. My next league will be this list.
Finally 5-0d a competitive league w/Jeskai Geist. I've 4-1d many & 5-0d the friendly/old leagues but none in the competitive. Glad to break the streak! #TeamGeist
Reading you guys I get the idea I just have a slightly different playstyle when using this deck. I'm very aggressive. Every time I can take the tempo route, I will. I think this deck should be played aggressively in most MUs. You shouldn't be trying to outgrind opponents. But that's just me. I'm having success with the deck so I'm sticking to my plan. Not to say playing the deck more conservatively is necessarily bad. But for me really most of my wins I just burn out my opponents after a couple swings from Geist, Resto, Clique, Colonnade or Snap. Meanwhile, I deal with their threats. Obviously if I'm playing Affinity I'll take a more midrangey approach, just bolting all of their dudes first. But even there, I'll still try to start attacking them as soon as possible. In this mindset cards like Remand and Unsubstantiate are not bad. Not saying the second one will make the cut, like I said, I have yet to test it. But it's definitely better than the alternatives you mentioned (I've tested both Boros Charm and Valorous Stance and I don't like them).
On Tron, my experience is dramatically different. I barely ever faced a Tron deck that couldn't deal with my Geist (4x Pyroclasm, 3-4x Oblivion Stone, 1-2x Ugin) and actually the creature you want is rather Clique. When I face Tron they always have multiple threats, cause they cycle a lot and have 4x Ancient Stirrings. For me that MU is really just a matter of killing them as fast as possible while taking care of their first, maybe second, threat. Just to have enough time to burn them out after some combat damage. For the record, the MU is bad, simply because in most cases we won't be fast enough to kill them before they go into unfair territory.
I agree with you here. But almost all the top tier decks we care about either run hard to kill threats (BGx, Tron, etc.) or more threats than we have removals and run fewer lands, making mana leak favorable (Affinity, Zoo, Merfolk, etc.). Although you wouldn't want any counters against Merfolk...
When counterspells are bad, Remand is better than Leak, 'cause it's not dead and it draws you a card. I can't stress this enough. Never a dead card. Versatility. Better mid/late game topdeck.
Sort of wrapping this up here... I think your 3/3 split of Mana Leak/Remand is completely fine. Magic is interesting because it's hard to always know 100% for sure what is correct, and it's easy to collect evidence to support many theories. At the end of the day, there are so many variables that come up in a game of magic, I think it's best to read everything you can and leverage your own experience. Everyone has their own play style, certain card selections may favor that style over another, and your more likely to find success playing cards that match your style.
On more note on tron, I agree completely with your approach and assessment. The match-up is just bad. We are a mid-range deck, Tron's bread and butter. I think we have a better chance than Jeskai lists that don't play Geist but, all we can really hope for is to be as aggressive as possible and hope they stumble. Bolt on one, Snap on two, etc...
I wouldn't call my analysis anti Remand so much as coming to the conclusion that Remand isn't very good right now.
* 4 Remand is too much, but 4 Leak is ALSO too much; horrible topdeck later on, Remand at least is never a dead draw as it draws you a card;
-In both cases there are 6 counters, I can get behind a 3/3 split, but for now I'll be sticking with the 4/2 or possibly cutting a Leak for Knot.
* Against Tron Remand actually IS better than Leak; you can't outgrind Tron;
-I disagree, Leak is certainly better.
* Against Burn it makes no difference. Remanding their Boros Charm or leaking it is more or less the same.
-Respectfully, these are inaccurate statements. Mana Leaking a Boros Charm or any burn spell infinitely better than Remanding it. When you trade a counter for a burn spell you are effectively gaining life, which is the key to winning the match-up. It buys you time, and forces them to have to try and find more action one card at a time off the top. If you are at 4 life, Remanding a Boros Charm doesn't do much, where Leak can keep you alive. You said yourself "Remand might draw you into Helixes or hate cards." Remand might do something useful in the matchup, most likely it won't. This isn't really a point of contention to be honest, Mana Leak is much better than Remand vs Burn, it isn't even close.
* There are other MUs you didn't talk of that are very relevant like Scapeshift/Titan-Valakut or Living End; Remand is good there;
-You are correct, but you are also talking about a very small part of the Meta. I checked mtggoldfish, the decks you mention only make up 4.5% if the meta game. Those decks will not influence my deck building choice very much. My plan is to build my deck so that it is as good as it can be against the most played top-tier decks. That is why I mentioned the Top 8 decks as they were listed on the site at that time.
* Remand is good vs any delve card (Tasigur, Become Immense etc), Remand is good vs Ancestral Vision, a card we suffer greatly, Remand is good vs flashback cards like Lingering Souls or Faithless Loothing;
-These are true points, which is partly why I have a couple of Remand (also for velocity and for the times I have a Geist on board).
*After all if Remand was this bad, we wouldn't have seen a 4 Remand, 0 Leak list top 2 Orlando.
-This is results oriented thinking, and it should be avoided. Just because they did will with four Remand does not mean it was correct.
* 4 Remand is too much, but 4 Leak is ALSO too much;
-I am playing 4 Leak because I want to try and consistently cast Leak on turn two to facilitate my plan of playing Geist on to an empty board.
First and foremost, as I've said many times, this deck is not well setup to benefit from the tempo advantage that Remand can create. It can, but you need a few things to go in your favor. For Remand to be best, you need a resolved threat, preferably Geist, and you need your opponent to play a spell that costs three or more on their turn four. Remand can be ok if you're Remanding a spell, playing Geist onto an empty board and you have an efficient answer to it when they re-play it after you play Geist, but many times Leak will have just been better. I like Remand in this deck as a one or two of.
Four Remand is not where we want to be with this deck most times, and especially right now. It's bad against too many of the top decks in the format.
These are the top 8 decks right now on magic online (not in order)...
Jund - Their spells are too efficient, and the ones that aren't need to actually be countered.
Infect - Almost everything costs one. Bolting the first creature and Mana Leaking their second is miles better than remanding their second only for them to re-play it.
Affinity - LOL - Leak is much better because you can use it to actually counter an Etched Champion.
Burn - Their most expensive spell costs two, but more importantly Remand does not trade which is what you need to do to win.
Tron - Many people think Remand is good here, but in most cases it isn't. It can be good, but it's only good if you can manage to setup a resolved Geist and they're trying to resolve a Karn/Wurm. Most times thing will not be going your way, and you need to be leaking their turn three play not remanding it. You certainly wouldn't board it out, but it is not as good as Leak. Leak will help you create an opportunity to turn the game around, Remand will only if things are already going your way.
Zoo - Basically the same as burn.
Merfolk - All counters are more or less bad, they are not how you beat this deck.
Jeskai Nahiri - Remand is great here!
Leak is better positioned against all of those decks except Merfolk, and to some extend Nahiri, but against Nahiri I want both for different reasons.
There is ONE deck I really want Remand for. The other 7 make up 41% of the meta. Are you sure you want 4 x Remand in your list? I am not saying don't run remand at all, but I am saying don't run all four and only four as your counter spell suite.
If you're looking at the recent results from the SCG Event/MTGO 5-0 performances and using that to justify the four of Remand, you are being results oriented. Those performance do not change the facts that I've listed above.
This isn't a feeling or a hunch, it's analysis, reason, and experience. I'm not going to abandon what makes sense just because someone did well at a tournament.
https://discord.gg/dwmyy3Z
I worked very closely with the old TeamGeist guys, I guess you could say I was part of the team in that we had a chat to exchange all of our ideas etc. Anyway, I was the first person in that group to start playing Serum Visions. I liked it but I could never get those guys to agree with me and I wasn't sure enough in my decision to just do it anyway. Once Scotty stopped streaming and the TeamGeist buzz simmered down I ended up mostly tweaking the deck on my own. I was still on 4 Remands back in those days, and I think they helped the deck in the fact that I wasn't running the full four Serum Visions yet. I then saw a list in which someone made 29th at a tournament playing Geist with 4 Serum Visions. That bolstered my own opinions to up the count to three, and then finally four and I haven't looked back. The old deck used to loose itself for the exact reason you mentioned. The deck is just flat out more consistent and for that reason, better, with Serum Visions in it.
I didn't record the league, but I could probably review the replays. I wanted to test Remand again based on the assumption that the meta has slowed down some, but I didn't want to go all-in in case I didn't like it. I figured with one I could evaluate it as if it was something else and take not of which would've been better. The AVs in the side have been indispensable in any grindy matchup and ones where you play the control role.
Currently it's a dispel.
For anyone reading, I am off of Crumble to Dust. I've already come to this conclusion a long time ago, and there was really no reason to try it again. It's not consistent vs Valakut because they may not draw it before they Titan/Scapeshift you. It's too slow vs the amulet deck (which is seeing more play on MTGO). It's slow vs Tron and they can play around it by getting a Ghost Quarter. Now, if things do go right and you hit a Tron piece it can be lights out for them however, it's a waste of sideboard slots to bring Crumble in only for Tron. Aven Mindcensor is decent versus all of those decks, so I am sticking to the plan of disrupting them as best I can with counters/Aven Mindcensor and hoping that jamming Geist gets them dead. My next league will be this list.
He doesn't do for the deck what Geist does which is closing speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgDNdSDyiA8
Sort of wrapping this up here... I think your 3/3 split of Mana Leak/Remand is completely fine. Magic is interesting because it's hard to always know 100% for sure what is correct, and it's easy to collect evidence to support many theories. At the end of the day, there are so many variables that come up in a game of magic, I think it's best to read everything you can and leverage your own experience. Everyone has their own play style, certain card selections may favor that style over another, and your more likely to find success playing cards that match your style.
On more note on tron, I agree completely with your approach and assessment. The match-up is just bad. We are a mid-range deck, Tron's bread and butter. I think we have a better chance than Jeskai lists that don't play Geist but, all we can really hope for is to be as aggressive as possible and hope they stumble. Bolt on one, Snap on two, etc...
* 4 Remand is too much, but 4 Leak is ALSO too much; horrible topdeck later on, Remand at least is never a dead draw as it draws you a card;
-In both cases there are 6 counters, I can get behind a 3/3 split, but for now I'll be sticking with the 4/2 or possibly cutting a Leak for Knot.
* Against Tron Remand actually IS better than Leak; you can't outgrind Tron;
-I disagree, Leak is certainly better.
* Against Burn it makes no difference. Remanding their Boros Charm or leaking it is more or less the same.
-Respectfully, these are inaccurate statements. Mana Leaking a Boros Charm or any burn spell infinitely better than Remanding it. When you trade a counter for a burn spell you are effectively gaining life, which is the key to winning the match-up. It buys you time, and forces them to have to try and find more action one card at a time off the top. If you are at 4 life, Remanding a Boros Charm doesn't do much, where Leak can keep you alive. You said yourself "Remand might draw you into Helixes or hate cards." Remand might do something useful in the matchup, most likely it won't. This isn't really a point of contention to be honest, Mana Leak is much better than Remand vs Burn, it isn't even close.
* There are other MUs you didn't talk of that are very relevant like Scapeshift/Titan-Valakut or Living End; Remand is good there;
-You are correct, but you are also talking about a very small part of the Meta. I checked mtggoldfish, the decks you mention only make up 4.5% if the meta game. Those decks will not influence my deck building choice very much. My plan is to build my deck so that it is as good as it can be against the most played top-tier decks. That is why I mentioned the Top 8 decks as they were listed on the site at that time.
* Remand is good vs any delve card (Tasigur, Become Immense etc), Remand is good vs Ancestral Vision, a card we suffer greatly, Remand is good vs flashback cards like Lingering Souls or Faithless Loothing;
-These are true points, which is partly why I have a couple of Remand (also for velocity and for the times I have a Geist on board).
*After all if Remand was this bad, we wouldn't have seen a 4 Remand, 0 Leak list top 2 Orlando.
-This is results oriented thinking, and it should be avoided. Just because they did will with four Remand does not mean it was correct.
* 4 Remand is too much, but 4 Leak is ALSO too much;
-I am playing 4 Leak because I want to try and consistently cast Leak on turn two to facilitate my plan of playing Geist on to an empty board.
A video series with this list will be going up on my channel starting on Monday next week.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
First and foremost, as I've said many times, this deck is not well setup to benefit from the tempo advantage that Remand can create. It can, but you need a few things to go in your favor. For Remand to be best, you need a resolved threat, preferably Geist, and you need your opponent to play a spell that costs three or more on their turn four. Remand can be ok if you're Remanding a spell, playing Geist onto an empty board and you have an efficient answer to it when they re-play it after you play Geist, but many times Leak will have just been better. I like Remand in this deck as a one or two of.
Four Remand is not where we want to be with this deck most times, and especially right now. It's bad against too many of the top decks in the format.
These are the top 8 decks right now on magic online (not in order)...
Jund - Their spells are too efficient, and the ones that aren't need to actually be countered.
Infect - Almost everything costs one. Bolting the first creature and Mana Leaking their second is miles better than remanding their second only for them to re-play it.
Affinity - LOL - Leak is much better because you can use it to actually counter an Etched Champion.
Burn - Their most expensive spell costs two, but more importantly Remand does not trade which is what you need to do to win.
Tron - Many people think Remand is good here, but in most cases it isn't. It can be good, but it's only good if you can manage to setup a resolved Geist and they're trying to resolve a Karn/Wurm. Most times thing will not be going your way, and you need to be leaking their turn three play not remanding it. You certainly wouldn't board it out, but it is not as good as Leak. Leak will help you create an opportunity to turn the game around, Remand will only if things are already going your way.
Zoo - Basically the same as burn.
Merfolk - All counters are more or less bad, they are not how you beat this deck.
Jeskai Nahiri - Remand is great here!
Leak is better positioned against all of those decks except Merfolk, and to some extend Nahiri, but against Nahiri I want both for different reasons.
There is ONE deck I really want Remand for. The other 7 make up 41% of the meta. Are you sure you want 4 x Remand in your list? I am not saying don't run remand at all, but I am saying don't run all four and only four as your counter spell suite.
If you're looking at the recent results from the SCG Event/MTGO 5-0 performances and using that to justify the four of Remand, you are being results oriented. Those performance do not change the facts that I've listed above.
This isn't a feeling or a hunch, it's analysis, reason, and experience. I'm not going to abandon what makes sense just because someone did well at a tournament.