Is the goal of Nissa's Pilgrimage to ramp or to stock your hand? As much as I like the card, I wonder if its worth the space in the deck. What sort of numbers would you play?
I saw it as a way to get 2 lands into your hand to pitch to Assault. It basically functions as extra copies of Life From the Loam. With the basic forest restriction I could only see it in a RG version as maybe a 1-2 of. Just trying to brainstorm ideas for the deck that's all.
So how about running 3 Basic Forests and Nissa's Pilgrimage now? It would probably work out really well in the straight up RG Loam version as that could accommodate more basics.
I don't think it will ever be able to replace Loam, but it sure provides the same effect.
I believe bGnomes originally tried posting his Junk deck here because it fell along the same lines (or someone did at some point; it's been awhile). It is a solid strategy but if I remember right, it pulled the deck in too many directions. It's been recommended as SB tech for a Merfolk heavy meta and I don't think it's bad. If it suits your fancy, go for it. I think the synergy isn't quite there for an Assault Loam list. Despite it having some amount of overlap of strategy. I do like the Haakon deck though. It has a lot going for it.
Ok, I figured it had been tried before but I wasn't ready to give up half my day to go look through the primer, or any old ones.
As for how the Helix is playing out, would it give us any merit to running Blood Moon ourselves? We need the triple red for Assualt, and we can still proc anything from the yard with the helix. We can even loam into some basic lands if we need to get other colours too. It would give us an out in the sideboard against decks like UWR, Jund/Junk, Pod, Tron, etc... Not only would we have the surprise factor of Helix, but in game 2 they wouldn't be ready to deal with what we board in.
The last thing is how are you getting Helixs back from the yard if you mill them? I ave had this problem before with milling Assualts. I don't know if it is a major problem, but I was just wondering if it comes up a lot since a 3/3 split means you are now doubling your targets in the yard that can't come back. My only thought was Buried Ruin but I'm not a huge fan of colourless lands as a 1 of.
It was both Torpf. As far as which one was more common, that would have to go to burning the opponent out with them. It's not nearly as efficient as Seismic Assault but 5 mana for 3 damage every turn gets there on a stalled board. The main thing that I like about it is that it allows the deck to mill more aggressively and still have an out if Assault doesn't get online.
Ok good to know then. I'll play my own version of the Helix deck this week and come back with some results from what I find about it. As of right now I want to have less Flame Jabs but I'll play with the full set and see how that goes.
On another note, has anyone ever tried out the Haakon + Nameless Inversion combo that bGnomes has been getting some success with over in the Deck Creation sub-forum? It seems like a powerful engine that could be used in the Jund shell. Now a lot of value is lost from not having Knight of the Reliquary, but it is an alternative route that works completely from the yard when Seismic Assault doesn't. Would it be too much to jam them both into the same Jund shell?
I'd really recommend running the full set of Flame Jabs. It's not fantastic but it works as a back up wincon with Helix. I wasn't upset with it, despite it being kind of underpowered.
This was my question from before. Now when you say back up wincon do you mean that you burned the opponent out with it, or used it to proc whatever you imprinted with the Helix?
@ The other discussion going on...
Countryside Crusher is the oldschool creature of choice. It has the potential to be bigger than anything else that Modern has to offer, but has the fault of getting killed by Lightning Bolt while the +1/+1 counter trigger is on the stack. If you are playing straight RG then Bow of Nylea is a good sideboard card that can come into the maindeck if you need it to get rid of this problem.
I think it wouldn't hurt to drop the number of Flame Jabs to 3. But before I suggest it, how much were you relying on it to activate the Helix? It seems like a sub par card that is only a 4 of right now to ensure that you have enough retrace targets. I didn't play the deck so I can't really have too much of an opinion on it, but it is the first thing that jumps out to me.
Really, I just need to play some real games with the deck but I won't be able to do so until next week. Once I do, I'll get my findings back to you guys. I foresee graveyard hate being a major issue but we'll see.
Isn't this the main problem with the deck int he first place? People will target your yard because of Loam, and then target it even harder if you somehow lock them out. I think it has a good 'surprise factor' but you really need to be able to play without the yard. This is why I think the Jund version with Bob and Goyf is the best choice for loam. The deck would then run over games with the yard, be ok without it, and randomly have potential to combo out wins through Worst Fears or something.
The big problem with the Helix is, that the "big" sorcery cards e.g. Worldfire are just garbage without the Helix. You will never be able to cast one of these. If you have it in your opening 7 it is basically a mulligan. Since you are playing Liliana of the Veil it is not that bad, because you can pitch it to the +1 ability. Otherwise you have no real option to get it into the grave.
But if you really want to play a big sorcery finisher for the helix, you could play Cruel/Violent Ultimatum since they are most of the times just gg if they are resolving.
Greetings,
Kathal
Not true. You have Lily, Faithless Looting, and if the situation calls for it you can Raven's Crime yourself. Basically you have 10-11 cards that can discard the spell and you're not upset about it, and 8 of those can work from the grave.
I did some goldfishing with the Spellweaver Helix deck. The advantage that card creates is insane. It doesn't matter what you pair with a Retrace spell, it just goes crazy. Though without playing against an opponent I'm not sure how useful Imprinting Maelstrom Pulse would be. I changed the list up a bit though. I wasn't crazy about Smallpox as the mana constraints are already a little tough and I'm running Bob because he's awesome and I never get to play with him. The list seems pretty solid and looks like this:
Anyways, figured I'd share what I had gotten to with the deck. It's pretty fun and seems consistent. The main plan of Assault Loam is still good and has the Bob/Liliana power with it. But it can just go nuts with a Spellweaver's Helix. Which is a really cool aspect to the card. I'm excited to play it next Wednesday.
That list looks goood, but what happens the time you reveal Worst Fears off of Bob?? You're probably going to loose some games too it haha. It almost makes an infinite combo though, because with a retrace spell you could Loam each turn and cast a Worst Fears every turn. You can't expect to deck the opponent this way, but clearing their board and swinging in with some creatures could be a gameplan.
Do you think bow is worthy of a slot main deck? I haven't played a lot with it, there are a lot less burn decks then there were when i decided to put bow in my board. I do side it in from time to time but i never seem to draw it... I've heard a lot of positive comment on bow on this forum. The only card i could possibly cut for it is pharaoh but it has been pretty good, not sure if a singleton bow would be better, pharaoh at least does its work from the grave.
I feel that in game one we want our deck to be as resilient as possible. If we can have as much of it operating form the grave when there is no hate in the game then that is good for us. Game 2 and 3 the grave hate comes in so Bow gives us a way to still function a bit without using the graveyard which the opponent won't be expecting. It can also save some cards from grave hate, and that mode isn't as useful in the first game. Overall I think it has the most value after sideboarding so that is when I like to use it.
I was thinking about doing something like that, but I wasn't sure how far to go with it. Absorb Vis is nice because cycling puts it in the graveyard without clogging up the hand too much. I don't know how effective it'd be for winning the game though. I'll give it a try though. I was thinking of going bigger with a spell like Violent Ultimatum or Worst Fears. Worldfire with Flame Jab straight wins the game with how Helix stacks the spells. I was also thinking something like Blightning might be fun.
EDIT: Or just go balls to the wall with off color spells since I'll never cast them realistically in a game. Time Stretch, Storm Herd, or All is Dust.
Damn I came here to mention a singleton Worldfire but you beat me to it. I think that it would be pretty funny to cast it off of a Flame Jab as there was a deck floating around months ago dedicated to this combo.
You could even put in a singleton Buried Ruin to get it out of your graveyard if you dredge it, and the Loam could get the Ruin if that is ever dredged.
The 4th Abrupt Decay in the main deck or in the sideboard? I thought about ray of revelation...the only problem is it wouldn't surprise anyone since I'd have to loam it to cast it (I feel the mana base is already tight without adding white). I tried 4 raven's crimes but it felt like I often saw it too much and wasn't happy with it. If you guys say 3 jabs is too much, I will take your advice. -1 flame jab + 1 abrupt decay? or +1 seismic assault? decisions decisions...maybe I will just go up to the 4 anger in the sideboard. I think fast aggro is the worst match up (is this true?), so maybe 4 of those would not hurt.
You want to be playing 4 Seismic Assault. It is the best card in the deck and there is no reason not to play 4. Yes seeing multiple of it is bad, but I can guarantee that you will mill one at least once, and have no way to recover it. By playing 4 of them you will be seeing it as fast as possible in every game which is what you want.
I think that you might benefit going up one more Ghost Quarter in the main. I also am not a fan of 3 Flame Jabs. You would be better off having a 4th Raven's Crime for more control on their hand which will probably benefit you in the long run. A 4th Abrupt Decay will be good too since it can stop both Twin and Pod decks. Even if you splash white you can get a Ray of Revelation in the sideboard, but you don't technically need white for it anyways. As for the last two sideboard slots, maybe Slaughter Games could work, or another Anger of the Gods to help with aggro decks.
I know your eternal ruse combo suggestion was directed to Nick but I would like to point out that the deck which runs it gets it's strength from running vial in order to get maximum value and create an actual softlock without having to invest more than 4 mana a turn.
Ah, forgot about that. I only remembered the two cards but haven't looked at the actual deck in a while. Thanks for pointing it out though.
@Nick: Have you considered playing Electrolyze? The cantrip and options it gives seem to be a good fit for your RUG version. If anything else it helps the Loam burn plan.
The problem I see with that comparison is that resolving an Assault doesn't instantly win you the game like Kiki does. It usually takes two or three turns to close out a game after an Assault hits. Which is a fair amount of time for an opponent to draw an out to your engine. Technically yes, you can win without it, but when the deck is built to function optimally with it, having it at the ready is ideal. You also have ways of filtering it out of your hand if it is a redundant copy in the face of no removal. I can't imagine added consistency in your primary wincon is worse than a random 1 of something else.
EDIT: I'm being very finicky about a decklist to play this Wednesday. I'm giving Trade Routes another attempt and cutting Goblin Guides, since they haven't been performing as well as I'd have liked (the Tier 1 decks have disappeared for a few weeks now). So I'm testing 2 Trade Routes and want to get 3 Young Pyromancers back in but I'm pulling 5 cards out (4x GG, 1x Jace Beleren) for 6 cards to come in (3x Young Pyromancer, 2x Trade Routes, 1x Faithless Looting). I'm thinking of shaving off an Izzet Charm or swapping a Snapcaster Mage for the last Pyromancer. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Here's what I'm looking at right now:
Did you ever have Delvers in the place of the Goyfs? With 26 cards to flip it a blind flip seems like it could be common. Another thing I though of was since you are playing Deprive, could you swap it out for Familiar's Ruse and put in some number of Eternal Witness? This would give you another softlock for spells, while you burn out their creatures and life.It wouldn't even get in the way of Loaming, but you might need more lands in play than you would like to pull it off. Maybe worth considering.
What was the final consensus on the borborygmos loam reanimator deck?
I think that it got shut down during the reign of Deathrite Shaman, and that it was never as consistent. Might be better off playing 4C Gifts for the combo.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I don't think it will ever be able to replace Loam, but it sure provides the same effect.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
As for how the Helix is playing out, would it give us any merit to running Blood Moon ourselves? We need the triple red for Assualt, and we can still proc anything from the yard with the helix. We can even loam into some basic lands if we need to get other colours too. It would give us an out in the sideboard against decks like UWR, Jund/Junk, Pod, Tron, etc... Not only would we have the surprise factor of Helix, but in game 2 they wouldn't be ready to deal with what we board in.
The last thing is how are you getting Helixs back from the yard if you mill them? I ave had this problem before with milling Assualts. I don't know if it is a major problem, but I was just wondering if it comes up a lot since a 3/3 split means you are now doubling your targets in the yard that can't come back. My only thought was Buried Ruin but I'm not a huge fan of colourless lands as a 1 of.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
On another note, has anyone ever tried out the Haakon + Nameless Inversion combo that bGnomes has been getting some success with over in the Deck Creation sub-forum? It seems like a powerful engine that could be used in the Jund shell. Now a lot of value is lost from not having Knight of the Reliquary, but it is an alternative route that works completely from the yard when Seismic Assault doesn't. Would it be too much to jam them both into the same Jund shell?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
@ The other discussion going on...
Countryside Crusher is the oldschool creature of choice. It has the potential to be bigger than anything else that Modern has to offer, but has the fault of getting killed by Lightning Bolt while the +1/+1 counter trigger is on the stack. If you are playing straight RG then Bow of Nylea is a good sideboard card that can come into the maindeck if you need it to get rid of this problem.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
You could even put in a singleton Buried Ruin to get it out of your graveyard if you dredge it, and the Loam could get the Ruin if that is ever dredged.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Just some quick thoughts.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
@Nick: Have you considered playing Electrolyze? The cantrip and options it gives seem to be a good fit for your RUG version. If anything else it helps the Loam burn plan.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I think that it got shut down during the reign of Deathrite Shaman, and that it was never as consistent. Might be better off playing 4C Gifts for the combo.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge