If P&K were good enough to play in multiples before Humans was clearly tier 0.5, then I don't see how it isn't as good or better now that the cat is out of the bag.
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Hollow One matchup is awful. They are quicker than us, they don't care about blood moon, and can often play Hollow One(s) or Gurmag Angler off of only 1 or 2 lands. Our sideboard is hit and miss - Anger is great Vs. Souls, Adept, Bloodghast, and Phoenix but embarrassing against Angler and Hollow One. Trinisphere is amazing against their enablers and Hollow One but does nothing powerful enough against Angler and the rest. Grudge and Artifact hate suffer from the same polarization.
Humans match up is pretty swingy. In most game states they are favoured. The states in which we are favoured are those that involve a fast Inferno Titan, or the specific, low-probability scenario that involves them having neither Noble Heirarch or Aether Vial, and us having a t2 Moon. P&K is also great in the MU but humans have this unfortunate tendency to get to 3 toughness quickly, which blanks her shocks.
Jeskai Control is still a very favourable match-up.
Yeah I went back and forth on buying the nobles/goyfs for a while, but the more I looked at it, the worse the idea sounded.
What about the other route, eschewing away from BBE entirely in favor of a more robust build?
This build is represented already by either Monster or Noble Ponza. You could start at either shell and make your modifications from there?
Basically your choice of midrange 3 and 4 drops to replace BBE and Molten Rains, and potentially reducing dork numbers in favour of Scoozes or more bolts.
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What do you guys think about running 1-2x Siege-gang Commander in the MB. Perhaps in place of Pia & Kiran.
My thinking is that 5 CMC isn't too difficult to achieve, it creates more bodies, and can potentially deal more direct damage (and cheaper per sting) than P&K.
P&K are 1cmc cheaper and the incidental synergy with Tracker is actually more inpactful than I initially thought when I started playing it. It's a shade better IMO.
If you're running Rabblemasters then SGC may be worth a shot.
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And then is adjusted according to meta, style, flavour, and mana curve.
I disagree with this as being core to Ponza post the BBE unban.
This is what I believe is the core of the deck:
At least 21 Lands
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
4 Stone Rain
4 BBE
At least 1 Birds of Paradise (I personally don’t agree with this but majority of people still believe it is core to the deck)
At least 3 Molten Rain
At least 3 Tireless Tracker
At least 1 Chandra ToD
At least 3 creature finishers (any number of Inferno Titan or Stormbreath)
Anything else is preference. There are a bunch of lists that play Pia and Kiran Nalaar as a 1-2 of, Courser of Kruphix as a 1 of, Nissa VoZ as a 1, and some number of Lightning Bolts. These cards have been debated off and on thus can be regarded as not core to the strategy.
I was just listing core threats not trying to define the Archetypes entire card choices. BBE builds are currently most popular but there are many who still prefer acid moss and huntmasters, for example. And less than 4 trackers, less than 2 Chandra, and less than 2 inferno titan are seen in very very few lists, either BBE or non BBE. even the lists with 1 Chandra main simply put 1 Chandra side.
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Thanks! Is Nissa, voice of zendikar a good replacement for chandra? or should i just go 2 chandra main?
Nissa is a flex slot and Chandra is a core slot. They do completely different things. Nissa is a defensive utility card. Chandra is a utility card, ramp card and win-con.
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I was surprised that Urabrask the Hidden has yet to be discussed in this thread. What do you guys think of the card in this archetype? It adds another tempo effect and if nothing else, its a solid hasty creature that dodges bolt/push. Also gives your other creatures a chance to punch through, which could potentially be better than just having a single flying creature (stormbreath slot).
Ubarask has poor stats for 5cmc. I would rather play Samut, Voice of Dissent, but even that is more fun than competative.
The second line of text on Ubarask would be better on a cheaper permanent.
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Hello! New Ponza player here, having previously played WB Eldrazi Taxes. I've been able to pick up a lot of the core for this deck, but there's still some piece I am missing/having a hard time getting my hands on at my LGS or via trades (Tireless Trackers, Inferno Titans, and Windswept Heaths - holding off on Birds until I find one that is not HP quality). Below is a copy of my current MB - do you think this is worth playing as is or should I hold off until I get the above threats and utility?
The Jadelight Rangers make me want to add in Goblin Dark-Dwellers to be able to pitch my S/M Rains and flashback them with the ETB.
Your list is very playable even without the optimal cards. You have good replacements for Tracker and Titan in Glorybringer and Jadelight Ranger - these two are already fringe selections for Ponza and are sometimes run as 1-ofs anyway!
The birds are actually the most painful loss. Double Red on t2 for molten rain is very occasionally awkward, and while birds help solve this, llanowar elves would not.
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I'm using MAM as an accelerator, but maybe it makes more sense to drop them and add another 2 Molten Rain and pair of Chandra ToDs.
Since you're not running BBE, Molten Rain doesn't necessarily have an edge over Acid-moss. Acid Moss ramps and Molten Rain is cheaper. It might be fine to run 2x Molten Rain 2x Acid-Moss and 2x Chandra.
Or hell, 4 moss, 2 dragons, 2 Chandra, 3 titan, no molten rain. That's an old school line up that was always pretty strong.
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MB Abrades provide security against Bridges, Lanterns, and Hollow One, and Sc.Ooze works to shore up the matches against aggro, Burn, and GY strategies. I know that it's traditional to run Chandra or Nissa, but I'm not sure they really fit the approach here, though Chandra might provide an alternate vector for winning.
Abrade is great in the format right now but I feel like you will want fewer of them, and probably in the Board.
MD Scooze I can get behind.
Chandra is definately is a win con and any replacement should also be able to do so. Nissa is completely flexible, it's a utility card.
Dropping to 1 bird seems greedy with 3 Stormbreath and 2 inferno titans. Could be fine though, I've toyed with going to 1 bird before!
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Since we are in the market for some high impact 3-drops to compliment our current options, I thought I'd ask for the opinions of my fellow salt miners on the following gems;
Note that at the moment I'm considering these as possible replacements for Courser of Kruphix and Nissa, VoZ.
1) Scab-clan Berserker
She's haste threat that can come down off of a BBE. The damage triggers stack up quickly, and this girl is main-deckable storm hate.
I was reminded about Jayas original incarnation after the spoiler of her new Planeswalker card. I don't think the walker has a slot in Ponza, but the 3CMC version offers re-usable burn that can give free wins against Humans, or deal with any number of annoying Noble Heirarchs. 3 damage on a stick is nothing to scoff at. She also hoses Jace, and sweeps the board.
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Humans match up is pretty swingy. In most game states they are favoured. The states in which we are favoured are those that involve a fast Inferno Titan, or the specific, low-probability scenario that involves them having neither Noble Heirarch or Aether Vial, and us having a t2 Moon. P&K is also great in the MU but humans have this unfortunate tendency to get to 3 toughness quickly, which blanks her shocks.
Jeskai Control is still a very favourable match-up.
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This build is represented already by either Monster or Noble Ponza. You could start at either shell and make your modifications from there?
Basically your choice of midrange 3 and 4 drops to replace BBE and Molten Rains, and potentially reducing dork numbers in favour of Scoozes or more bolts.
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The 1st Nissa is only better the 2nd Chandra if you face deaths shadow frequently.
Some might say Nissa is also good against Jund, but Chandra is just as good in the Jund MU.
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P&K are 1cmc cheaper and the incidental synergy with Tracker is actually more inpactful than I initially thought when I started playing it. It's a shade better IMO.
If you're running Rabblemasters then SGC may be worth a shot.
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I was just listing core threats not trying to define the Archetypes entire card choices. BBE builds are currently most popular but there are many who still prefer acid moss and huntmasters, for example. And less than 4 trackers, less than 2 Chandra, and less than 2 inferno titan are seen in very very few lists, either BBE or non BBE. even the lists with 1 Chandra main simply put 1 Chandra side.
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Nissa is a flex slot and Chandra is a core slot. They do completely different things. Nissa is a defensive utility card. Chandra is a utility card, ramp card and win-con.
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Chandra is so good in Ponza that she can justify 2 main deck slots in almost every meta.
IMHO when building Ponza the core threat line up starts from here;
4x Tireless Tracker
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Inferno Titan
And then is adjusted according to meta, style, flavour, and mana curve.
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Option C in a blind meta. Option B in a burn or Hollow One meta. Option A if it's a midrange meta.
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Ubarask has poor stats for 5cmc. I would rather play Samut, Voice of Dissent, but even that is more fun than competative.
The second line of text on Ubarask would be better on a cheaper permanent.
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Your list is very playable even without the optimal cards. You have good replacements for Tracker and Titan in Glorybringer and Jadelight Ranger - these two are already fringe selections for Ponza and are sometimes run as 1-ofs anyway!
The birds are actually the most painful loss. Double Red on t2 for molten rain is very occasionally awkward, and while birds help solve this, llanowar elves would not.
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Since you're not running BBE, Molten Rain doesn't necessarily have an edge over Acid-moss. Acid Moss ramps and Molten Rain is cheaper. It might be fine to run 2x Molten Rain 2x Acid-Moss and 2x Chandra.
Or hell, 4 moss, 2 dragons, 2 Chandra, 3 titan, no molten rain. That's an old school line up that was always pretty strong.
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Abrade is great in the format right now but I feel like you will want fewer of them, and probably in the Board.
MD Scooze I can get behind.
Chandra is definately is a win con and any replacement should also be able to do so. Nissa is completely flexible, it's a utility card.
Dropping to 1 bird seems greedy with 3 Stormbreath and 2 inferno titans. Could be fine though, I've toyed with going to 1 bird before!
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Note that at the moment I'm considering these as possible replacements for Courser of Kruphix and Nissa, VoZ.
1) Scab-clan Berserker
She's haste threat that can come down off of a BBE. The damage triggers stack up quickly, and this girl is main-deckable storm hate.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398461
2) Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
I was reminded about Jayas original incarnation after the spoiler of her new Planeswalker card. I don't think the walker has a slot in Ponza, but the 3CMC version offers re-usable burn that can give free wins against Humans, or deal with any number of annoying Noble Heirarchs. 3 damage on a stick is nothing to scoff at. She also hoses Jace, and sweeps the board.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=234707
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GUWRB Amulet Titan
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