GDD has been tested pretty thoroughly and consensus opinion is that there are better options. IMO, ditch the GDDs & SSGs in favor of Arbor Elf, BoP, and a better finisher; Stormbreath Dragon & Inferno Titan are both solid options and budget-friendly to boot. Also, no blood moon?
Ok, fair enough. fight with Fire does kill the Hollow one and the zombie fish as well.
Flooding is an issue.. I've playtested a lot and this deck has a bad habit to draw lands midgame. So far my attempt to solve this is 2 lootings which works well. I've tried 3 lootings, but 3 is too many.. it felt like the deck is just trying to loot and not do anything else at 3, so went back to 2.
Interesting. I've been testing out Faithless Looting as well. I've been fascinated with Chancellor of the Tangle as of late, specifically in regards to whether or not it could be used in Ponza to help crap out a T1 Blood Moon without straying too far from the game plan or compromising too much in terms of overall efficacy. I've only started playing around with the idea very recently, so still trying to find the right balance, but here's what I'm currently trying out that's pertinent to what I'm trying to do:
First off, I'm definitely not advocating that anybody else try this out or even that it's effective; more so just a bored Ponza player with a penchant for Blood Moon and degeneracy. With that being said, constructive criticism and/or suggested are very much welcomed. The goal is to find a way to pop off a T1 moon without needing too many "unnecessary" cards dedicated to making it happen. This is why I'm intrigued by Chancellor and Looting; we have ramp, so Chancellor isn't completely worthless outside of our opening hand and looting helps during those times when it actually is worthless in addition to smoothing out potential mana floods/lack of threats/needless dorks/etc. I originally had all 4 Chancellors in the MB along with another copy of manamorphose, but I took them out and adjusted the mana base to include filter lands to help improve consistency/reduce redundancy. Lastly, the reason for Grim out of the SB is to essentially get some sort of additional value from looting.
As I mentioned, this ended up being more of a fun experiment, but I'm all ears to any suggestions/criticisms.
I like new versions playing around 4 bolts , i have been really liking the card.
Right now im looking to get some scoozes mainboard,lowering the curve may be a good idea...
Similarly, I'm considering Tarmogoyf MB to lower the curve. Easily a 4/5 at least for 2 CMC. Possibly remove BBE, as I don't think she's really that good in our deck...cascading into a mana dork or Utopia Sprawl feels bad and they make up ~40-50% of the possible targets she can hit. That's a pretty high degree of variance.
I'd definitely keep the big hitters though. It's why we run 10 dedicated ramp sources in the deck. A resolved Inferno Titan has to be answered before you untap, as it can spiral very quickly out of hand.
IMO, Goyfs are the right call, in addition to Noble Hierarchs. Noble's exalted trigger gives added utility to BoP and isn't a complete dud if cascaded into. This was briefly discussed around the time BBE was unbanned, but a lot of folks considered Ponza a budget option and forking over the cash for a set of Goys/Hierarchs was out of the question for many. However, with both cards being reprinted in UMA, running a build with Goyfs/Hierarchs will be much less cost prohibitive, at least during the first few weeks of set release.
Splashing white for SB options is a valid strategy that should be considered. KCI is getting popular and it just stomps ponza. I prefer BoPs over Noble Hierarch personally.
Nice, I've played around with the number/type of mana dorks in a few different builds and I think there's a handful of viable options depending on how you go about the rest of the list. Lately I prefer to strip out the Arbor Elves & Sprawls entirely in favor of Birds and Nobles; early ramp is sacrificed for more mid-game options and the decision was entirely based on staying competitive in my local meta. However, I've also had success running it on MTGO, so YMMV. Compared to the other GRw lists I've played, the BoP/Noble route eases the burden of running a third color alongside Moon and increases the odds of cascading into something with utility. Hitting a BoP or Noble off of BBE still isn't the most desirable outcome, but Noble's exalted trigger lets BoP push across damage in what would normally be a stalled board state and can be a difference maker over the course of a game if not dealt with. Even when the dorks just serve as lightning rods for removal, they boost the survivability of bigger threats. Either way, being able to tap into w has been huge in a meta with multiple KCI decks running around; Stony Silence and Rest in Peace alone are fantastic tools to have access to as they sure up more than just KCI matchups.
Despite being ridiculously redundant, KCI can be exploited by most decks with access to W. Whether it's a shift in the meta toward U/W control & Humans or just a general uptick in SB preparedness, I don't think it'll be long before KCI is figured out and its share of the meta decreases. Until then, I'll most likely stick with Naya colors whenever I'm playing Ponza.
Nice, I splash white as well and it certainly opens up a plethora of solid SB options. They're expensive, but IMO Noble Hierarch is basically mandatory for any Ponza list that needs white to cast stuff in the MB.
Has anyone tested the "Noble Moon" version of this deck to success recently? I'm starting to hit the point where the BBE hits feel bad more times than not...either BBE or the Arbor Elf/Sprawl needs to go. I've also noticed that BBE > Bloodmoon is a bit of a nombo with the fetches/courser/tracker synergy...kinda hard to shuffle those >3 cmc cards back into the pool, or manipulate your topdeck with a moon over your fetches. This also makes your Tracker draws suboptimal as well.
I'm thinking of either a more controlling/grindy/ramp-up version without BBE that has Huntmasters over BBE, Walking Ballistas, Acid-moss over Molten Rain, and Bonfires/Trinispheres maindeck somewhere...Probably with Dragonlord Atarka as a topend.
Or, going the Noble Moon route, with more of a lower curve, notably incorporating two drops like scooze and goyf, as well as hasty 3 drops to optimize BBE hits.
If you go back X pages to when BBE was first unbanned, there was some Noble Moon discussion. That's the route I went within the first 1-2 weeks of the unbanning for the same reasons you mention: lowering the curve to maximize BBE seemed like the most efficient option and 8 of our 60 MB cards are essentially land mines just waiting to be cascaded into (Arbor + Sprawl). It never gained much traction in this thread, because of the reluctance to shell out for Goyfs/Nobles. Whenever I decide to play Ponza, it's still the variant that I roll out and if you have the Goyfs/Nobles already then I'd recommend giving it a shot. Having the option to splash white unlocks a ton of SB options and cascading into something like Birds, which would otherwise be sub-par, isn't nearly as bad when you have exalted triggers/Kessig wR.
In all seriousness, it doesn't look too bad with the exception of Fulminator Mage, which is worse than Molten Rain as it can't hit basics. However, then it's less Jund and more just splashing black for K-Command, which isn't necessarily bad. If I were to splash a color, however, I'd go with white for the side board options.
MB Abrades provide security against Bridges, Lanterns, and Hollow One, and Sc.Ooze works to shore up the matches against aggro, Burn, and GY strategies. I know that it's traditional to run Chandra or Nissa, but I'm not sure they really fit the approach here, though Chandra might provide an alternate vector for winning.
IMO, you'll want to keep both birds if you plan on running x3 Stormbreath, x2 Titans, & a play set of Mwonvuli. I'd also ditch the Cinder Glade for another Stomping Ground, Copperline Gorge or something else of the ilk. In addition, you can probably drop the Coursers if you're not running BBE or Chandra; getting hit off BBE and synergy with Chandra's +1 is what makes it such a value town card. I like Courser either way, so I don't think there's a right or wrong decision there, but just something to consider if there are other options you'd like to MB.
I play both decks, so I'm aware of what you're getting at, but even in that second scenario, the Ponza player has the upper hand. Yes, the Bogles player can continue, but when they only run an average of six 2cmc auras, with no reliable card draw aside from Canopy, they'll likely die before having the chance to draw into one of them.
In either of those scenarios, whether the Ponza player is on the draw or play, a T1 Chalice on 1 will almost assure victory against Bogles. Ponza may slow itself down by now getting out a ramp piece first, but they'll ultimately win the war of attrition. Can't speak for other matchups, but Ponza running chalice is game, set, match vs Bogles. Regardless, if I had to choose between one or the other then I'm still taking Trinisphere over Chalice as a Ponza player.
That maneuver has a decent shot on the play, but does much worse on the draw. Chalice on X=2 against Storm probably doesn't happen until turn 3, and they can sometimes go off turn 3 on the play. There is also a non-negligible chance of it just getting countered on the draw. That said, if it lands, it can be hard to remove. Boggles is a bit better, since it's faster and there is a chance to sweep away a Boggle a bit later, but it should not be considered a lock either--they have ready access to artifact removal if they thought to bring it, and they can always try for Daybreak Coronet which tends to be much more difficult to beat.
Bogles player here. Depending on the situation and player, G1,T1 Chalice on 1 is almost always a scoop; most experienced players have adapted as this has always been a glaring weakness and will MB some combination of 2cmc spells to get around it, usually Silhana Ledgewalker to get a hexproof creature down and a set of Spirit Mantle compared to the usual 1 in metas where Chalice is more prevalent. G2 we bring in Seal of Primordium, Krosan Grip, etc. Even if we manage to land a creature before Chalice hits the board, it's definitely an uphill battle considering most builds have zero MB cards with CMC > 2, aside from Leyline (and the occasional Unflinching Courage).
Hi I’ve started playing the deck and I’ve found Courser of Kruphix to be a bit lacklustre a lot of the time, especially since we’re not a primeval Titan or azusa deck. Has anyone tried Nissa Vastwood Seer or Domri Rade? Origins Nissa in particular feels like it could be strong, it ramps, it provides a body, turn 3 play, and the pw form provides a rly good clock and threat. Thoughts?
Personally, I'm a big fan of both Courser and Domri. Like Cajun mentioned earlier on this page, we have quite a few flex spots, so YMMV; figure out what suits your particular meta. Courser + Chandra on the board is great synergy and Courser alone can be just solid value as a 2/4 body that pads your life total so long as you're hitting your land drops. Domri doesn't seem to get much love elsewhere, but I've found that it also has nice synergy w/ Courser, can be hit of BBE, and his -2 comes in handy quite often.
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4 Windswept Heath
3 Stomping Ground
1 Mountain
7 Forest
3 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Primal Command
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
4 Stone Rain
2 Molten Rain
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Inferno Titan
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
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Interesting. I've been testing out Faithless Looting as well. I've been fascinated with Chancellor of the Tangle as of late, specifically in regards to whether or not it could be used in Ponza to help crap out a T1 Blood Moon without straying too far from the game plan or compromising too much in terms of overall efficacy. I've only started playing around with the idea very recently, so still trying to find the right balance, but here's what I'm currently trying out that's pertinent to what I'm trying to do:
MB:
x3 Chancellor of the Tangle
x1 Simian Spirit Guide
x3 Faithless Looting
x2 Manamorphose
x3 Fire-Lit Thicket
SB:
x1 Simian Spirit Guide
x2 Grim Lavamancer
First off, I'm definitely not advocating that anybody else try this out or even that it's effective; more so just a bored Ponza player with a penchant for Blood Moon and degeneracy. With that being said, constructive criticism and/or suggested are very much welcomed. The goal is to find a way to pop off a T1 moon without needing too many "unnecessary" cards dedicated to making it happen. This is why I'm intrigued by Chancellor and Looting; we have ramp, so Chancellor isn't completely worthless outside of our opening hand and looting helps during those times when it actually is worthless in addition to smoothing out potential mana floods/lack of threats/needless dorks/etc. I originally had all 4 Chancellors in the MB along with another copy of manamorphose, but I took them out and adjusted the mana base to include filter lands to help improve consistency/reduce redundancy. Lastly, the reason for Grim out of the SB is to essentially get some sort of additional value from looting.
As I mentioned, this ended up being more of a fun experiment, but I'm all ears to any suggestions/criticisms.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
IMO, Goyfs are the right call, in addition to Noble Hierarchs. Noble's exalted trigger gives added utility to BoP and isn't a complete dud if cascaded into. This was briefly discussed around the time BBE was unbanned, but a lot of folks considered Ponza a budget option and forking over the cash for a set of Goys/Hierarchs was out of the question for many. However, with both cards being reprinted in UMA, running a build with Goyfs/Hierarchs will be much less cost prohibitive, at least during the first few weeks of set release.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Nice, I've played around with the number/type of mana dorks in a few different builds and I think there's a handful of viable options depending on how you go about the rest of the list. Lately I prefer to strip out the Arbor Elves & Sprawls entirely in favor of Birds and Nobles; early ramp is sacrificed for more mid-game options and the decision was entirely based on staying competitive in my local meta. However, I've also had success running it on MTGO, so YMMV. Compared to the other GRw lists I've played, the BoP/Noble route eases the burden of running a third color alongside Moon and increases the odds of cascading into something with utility. Hitting a BoP or Noble off of BBE still isn't the most desirable outcome, but Noble's exalted trigger lets BoP push across damage in what would normally be a stalled board state and can be a difference maker over the course of a game if not dealt with. Even when the dorks just serve as lightning rods for removal, they boost the survivability of bigger threats. Either way, being able to tap into w has been huge in a meta with multiple KCI decks running around; Stony Silence and Rest in Peace alone are fantastic tools to have access to as they sure up more than just KCI matchups.
Despite being ridiculously redundant, KCI can be exploited by most decks with access to W. Whether it's a shift in the meta toward U/W control & Humans or just a general uptick in SB preparedness, I don't think it'll be long before KCI is figured out and its share of the meta decreases. Until then, I'll most likely stick with Naya colors whenever I'm playing Ponza.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
If you go back X pages to when BBE was first unbanned, there was some Noble Moon discussion. That's the route I went within the first 1-2 weeks of the unbanning for the same reasons you mention: lowering the curve to maximize BBE seemed like the most efficient option and 8 of our 60 MB cards are essentially land mines just waiting to be cascaded into (Arbor + Sprawl). It never gained much traction in this thread, because of the reluctance to shell out for Goyfs/Nobles. Whenever I decide to play Ponza, it's still the variant that I roll out and if you have the Goyfs/Nobles already then I'd recommend giving it a shot. Having the option to splash white unlocks a ton of SB options and cascading into something like Birds, which would otherwise be sub-par, isn't nearly as bad when you have exalted triggers/Kessig wR.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
No, but I bet it tastes like Christmas
In all seriousness, it doesn't look too bad with the exception of Fulminator Mage, which is worse than Molten Rain as it can't hit basics. However, then it's less Jund and more just splashing black for K-Command, which isn't necessarily bad. If I were to splash a color, however, I'd go with white for the side board options.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
IMO, you'll want to keep both birds if you plan on running x3 Stormbreath, x2 Titans, & a play set of Mwonvuli. I'd also ditch the Cinder Glade for another Stomping Ground, Copperline Gorge or something else of the ilk. In addition, you can probably drop the Coursers if you're not running BBE or Chandra; getting hit off BBE and synergy with Chandra's +1 is what makes it such a value town card. I like Courser either way, so I don't think there's a right or wrong decision there, but just something to consider if there are other options you'd like to MB.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
In either of those scenarios, whether the Ponza player is on the draw or play, a T1 Chalice on 1 will almost assure victory against Bogles. Ponza may slow itself down by now getting out a ramp piece first, but they'll ultimately win the war of attrition. Can't speak for other matchups, but Ponza running chalice is game, set, match vs Bogles. Regardless, if I had to choose between one or the other then I'm still taking Trinisphere over Chalice as a Ponza player.
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Bogles player here. Depending on the situation and player, G1,T1 Chalice on 1 is almost always a scoop; most experienced players have adapted as this has always been a glaring weakness and will MB some combination of 2cmc spells to get around it, usually Silhana Ledgewalker to get a hexproof creature down and a set of Spirit Mantle compared to the usual 1 in metas where Chalice is more prevalent. G2 we bring in Seal of Primordium, Krosan Grip, etc. Even if we manage to land a creature before Chalice hits the board, it's definitely an uphill battle considering most builds have zero MB cards with CMC > 2, aside from Leyline (and the occasional Unflinching Courage).
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Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Personally, I'm a big fan of both Courser and Domri. Like Cajun mentioned earlier on this page, we have quite a few flex spots, so YMMV; figure out what suits your particular meta. Courser + Chandra on the board is great synergy and Courser alone can be just solid value as a 2/4 body that pads your life total so long as you're hitting your land drops. Domri doesn't seem to get much love elsewhere, but I've found that it also has nice synergy w/ Courser, can be hit of BBE, and his -2 comes in handy quite often.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.