this is my first post. Sry for my clumsy english, but im not native speaker. Im playing some ponza for a while. My first tournament i went 2-2. Lost against this fast hollow one deck 0-2 and against CoCo. I didnt know how this combo works and the opponent got it fast. I did not have some good sb cards, because i didnt know what exactly to expect. Other games where against jund and a gifts deck. Here, blood moon on turn two, was the win condition.
Maybe here is some space for sb discussion for decks, which are not a good matchup for ponza, like fast Decks eg. bogles Deck.
My SB changes often, for trying some different options. But im not sure, because there is so much varations of decks.
Im testing some cards atm, like this wolfbriar elemental, because sometimes it feels like there is not enough pressure. Mana is often more than enough and so i thought this could be a good deal: eg for 7 Mana u get 4 Creatures on the table with one card. Sure you get a titan if u have one, but against white it is often removed after "comes into play".
I would like to test some other cards like Shivan Wumpus, Flametongue Kavu, Chain Reaction or Shrapnel Blast.
This Wumpus can be a turn 2 beater or it is like a additional Stone Rain. Often it is turn 2 BBE, but it feels some times weak, especially when u get a bird or elf. Even a stone rain feels not enough, sometimes.
Chain Reaction i think, can be good for some bigger creatures. Like this Hollow one 4/4. With an own Elf on the table and oppenents creatures there is a good chance to kill everything.
Shrapnel Blast i thought of, because often i have tracker with a few clues, but it gets removed really fast, most of the times. So i thought how i could get some additional value out of the clues, other than pia and kiran and of course card draws.
I saw this card Dualcaster Mage. I think this could be some sb option. Sure it is not great hit by BBE.
So, this is what i want to tell you.
I thank you for reading this and would be glad if u tell your thoughts about this.
BBE is going to be terrible in this deck. You guys are already talking about cutting BoP, weakening the T2 options which have long been a major success factor for Ponza. Someone started talking about Rabblemaster, FFS. There are only two placed BBE is going to be worth it's slot: Jund and Assault - and Assault already get's better value from its Blue cards.
Think it through: BBE is a hasty 3/2 that gives you a random <4 drop. A 3/2 for 4 in Modern is already unplayable. Cascade would often make the card worth thinking about, but only if you can control what you're going to hit. Let me tell you, cascading into Utopia Sprawl is never going to feel good. Same thing goes for the elf. So what are you hoping for? Blood Moon and Stone Rain? On T4! Guess what I want to be casting on 4. Titan! Or Dragon! I'm hoping to already have Blood Moon in play by then, or have already hit Stone Rain and Acid Moss. Moreover...if I haven't, I'm prolly losing and BBE isn't going to turn anything around for me.
Here's another thought: How often are you going to look at BBE and Stone Rain in your hand and decide to cast BBE? The correct answer is pretty much never. If you are about to lose to Shadow and need the blocker is pretty much the only thing I can think of, and that's not a winning line.
Go ahead and test the hell out of it, but I played BBE a ton when he was in standard (He was amazing in Swans) and won't be wasting time/slots on BBE in Ponza.
Well, not too similar to that but I have been trying a Tooth variant. I run 3 Tooths, Xenagos and Emmy and that's my only deviation from what most people would think of as "stock." It's been okay, but not amazing. Tooth can be pretty clunky and I'm thinking of going to two.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
We've talked about the R/W decks that run Boom//Bust, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Flagstones, etc., but we haven't considered the cascade option. At first glance it doesn't look like it would be better than the existing option, i.e.: cascading into Balance/Living End will pretty much always be better than cascading into 'Geddon because that's how those decks deal with things like Bogles, so you should just play the Balance/Living End deck if you want to cascade. That said, it looks like a really neat idea. If you put it together and run it please let us know how it goes.
While you have good points about just play the existing decks I would think that the cascade into geddon idea has perks the others don't. For one a hand with two balances is pretty close to a mull where a hand with two booms is an advantage. I'd keep that hand so hard.
Likewise living end can be hated on so easily. Especially with dredge hate running around.
Both decks can be fought with a little counter magic. a timely remand or spell pierce can ruin those plans. this isn't exactly crippled by one or two counters.
Another Plus is Blood moon. You have to run basics and playing red so blood moon can just randomly win games.
Lastly is get to add in boarderposts which function like cipt duels. So you are likely playing black and green for good SB options. Between black for Leyline of no dredge and green gives you grudge plus other options it can make a solid 75 probably.
Right now my collection is in shambles... Minus a few decks so right now I'm more or less theory crafting. If anyone else can see the advantages of playing LD with 8 geddons then hopefully someone can help with this. I'll look and make a base deck in the next few days and if it gets attention then that's cool. Just trying to help.
Well, you should know that the most recent versions of the Cascade Balance deck run Blood Moons, so that's nothing new. Check out Ari Lax's deck from GP DFW.
The problem I have with the Cascade-into-geddon concept is that you have to pair it with a threat. The Balance decks abuse the Balance by suspending Gargadon and sacrificing all their lands to the Gargadon with Balance on the stack. This turns Balance into Wrath/Geddon which is obviously better than Geddon. At the very least this gives you inevitability as sooner or later a Gargadon is going to demand interaction or it win the game. If you have the ability to play a threat then Geddon you might be okay, but in general I think I prefer the Balance because it does both. Still, you should 100% work on it. If it rocks then I definitely want to hear about it.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
We've talked about the R/W decks that run Boom//Bust, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Flagstones, etc., but we haven't considered the cascade option. At first glance it doesn't look like it would be better than the existing option, i.e.: cascading into Balance/Living End will pretty much always be better than cascading into 'Geddon because that's how those decks deal with things like Bogles, so you should just play the Balance/Living End deck if you want to cascade. That said, it looks like a really neat idea. If you put it together and run it please let us know how it goes.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
IMHO developing competitive is not an inappropriate place for this thread. I'd also like to see the broad mana disruption mandate continued for the discussion. I know the RW decks have a thread but it was never active. W have had a lot of good discussion here. If things evolve and pick up pace enough (10-15 posts per day for a while) then I could see splitting them. But for now, all that would accomplish is orphaning one or both as you dilute the energy being put into Blood Moon/LD-type decks.
That said, I went back and looked at the primer here and while it's reasonably well constructed is does date back to 2012 and is just a tad out of date. It's due for a refresh.
I feel it has been discussed to death. But is everyone still dissing bonfire. After playing last night for hours.. maybe my meta but bonfire main is dope. 3 angers in side are fine. Also running 3 bolts main
Yes. Everyone is still dissing Bonfire. Glad you are having a positive experience, but you seem to be the outlier. As ever, go with what makes you happy. But for all the reasons already mentioned (yes, it has been discussed to death) Bonfire is bad magic. At least without a lot of ways to set it up. If they reprint Brainstorm then I could see my opinion changing...at least in the right deck.
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Hey Zasse_G, glad you are enjoying the RW deck. I think I'm heading back that way myself. There are 2 to 3 Jund decks at my LGS every week and the RG just isn't getting it done for me.
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I know. Jund just gets there sometimes. In this case, and pretty much every other time I've played against it, my deck has crapped out on me though. Last night, I survived the initial onslaught, dealt with his Bobs and when finally at parity on the board hit four lands and a Utopia Spawl in a row. Game two he gets super greedy, going for all non-basics to resolve a T3 Painful truths but no Blood Moon on my side...in fact no threats whatsoever. Had a great moment when a Titan would have won it for me, but variance cost me again. Then we play for fun and I get threats and win easily...
This is actually why I switched to the RW deck for awhile as it owns Jund, but as I prefer the RG deck I figured I should swing it again. Sooner or later probability has to swing back in my favour on that match-up...doesn't it?
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I beat Fish, U-Tron and Affinity pretty easily, but lost to Jund when I hit a land pocket. Jund is actually a worse match-up for me than I think it ought to be.
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I've tried Deus of Calamity in the past and almost always been seriously underwhelmed by it's performance on the table. In this case you are cutting 3 CMC LD spells for a 5-drop. I admit that a good start will give you that 5 drop faster than other decks might, but my experience has been decidedly meh. I'd rather have Beast Within.
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Wow Steven, that's totally unlike anything I would think of as RW Ponza. ;-)
I'm interested to see how it runs for you, but at the moment I am not qualified to comment on it. Once you get past Blood Moon, some bolts and Nahiri-Kul, it doesn't seem to want to do the same things my build wants to do.
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Honestly the Boros list should go here there was a post, it sucks. I like a sun and moon deck with LD. Idk. I just loved the life gain green has to offer. Next SCG nite is November so I will be on gr Ponza till I win pin then go off on weird brews
I'm quite happy to talk about the Boros list wherever. There just needs to be some actual conversation about it. It's a very solid build, but as I said before, it is not very forgiving. You really have to practice and get a feel for it. There is lifegain in the deck (Helix/Ajani) and you can add more in the board if you need it (Timely Reinforcements, Finks). The big reason I like it though is the Leylines. One of the best ways to combat LD is to attack the hand with Thoughtseize, etc. I won a game against Jund where I mulled to 5 but got my Leyline, stranding 3 discard spells in his hand. Basically, I forced him into a triple mulligan. I might have still been in trouble if he'd gotten a fast 'Goyf or two, but that would be bad news for any deck.
Sounds like you should stick with R/G for now though. They are different decks and behave differently. I'd go with the one I'm most comfy with in any meaningful tourney. Go get that pin.
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I've played this kind of deck a lot and would advise against both those changes Dennis. You need to bolt at 1 (some people play Oust too), Boom/Wall/Helix at 2, Blood Moon/Molten Rain/Anger at 3 and Nahiri at 4. What do you name with Chalice and what do you bring it in against? As for the fastland...you need RR on T3 and sometimes WW on T4 so the filter land is important for...filtering. You'd also be surprised at the number of times you need to hit a land that doesn't come into play tapped on T4 (Nahiri/Wrath) or T5 (GDD).
The idea is to board out most if not all bolts when siding in Chalice and usually casting it x=1, otherwise it is less relevant.
Setting it on 2 might also be good (the version I'm looking at plays helix,boom and no walls).
The filter lands seem unnecessary as in the version I'm looking at there is no need for WW at all so the extra (usually) untapped red/white source is good and drawing multiples of filter lands in the opening hand is terrible.
Coming to play tapped on turn 4 can be easily played around or just ignored with the SSG accelerate the mana.
I find this a little surprising. In three months of playing the RW deck I've only run into a situation where I drew too many filter lands with no pure r or w producer in my opener once. This is the only possible drawback to Rugged Prairie. However, over the years, I have often drawn fast lands after T3. And this deck really needs lands coming in untapped. I have won games by topdecking the 5th land and GDD-ing into 'Geddon/Anger/Helix that I absolutely would have lost if the land came into play taped. As for not needing RR on T3 and WW of T4...when does having whatever combination of mana you may need hurt you? Not having RR on T3 for M. Rain is bad though. Not having RW on T2 for Helix can be equally bad (but that's not something that would suffer from fast land over RP).
I am not playing SSG as I find the walls too valuable against Infect, etc -- though even if I were, that invites variance. If you draw one of four SSGs (and don't use it to play T2 Moon) then you are okay. The wall blanks an attack (and often pulls a removal spell) and replaces itself (and in my deck has synergy with Resto/Kiki) while the SSG gives you a speed boost...maybe. Obviously you should play the deck (and any other deck) the way you like. These are just my observations.
Re: Chalice. What are you boarding Bolts out against? I don't think I've ever taken them out. Against anything. I have removed the Angers/Wrath/Walls against non creature decks, but Bolt can always go to the dome. I just can't think of a deck against which I want Chalice on 1 over Bolt - except Bogles...but I haven't lost to that yet, but there isn't a lot of it in my area right now. If there was I could really see hoping to go Land/SSG/Chalice on 1 in G2. And I guess 8-Rack. But is that even a thing right now?
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Ergh.. user error. Went 2-2 lost against deck I should of won against. I might drop boom// bust and GDD go walkers and stormbreaths
Sorry to hear that Steven. That deck can be very persnickety. You really need to have a good idea of how to mulligan it properly. You also need to build it correctly and after a lot of trial and error I did come to a build I really like which is quite different to all the net decks you'll find. I'll share it here, although I'll add the caveat that this isn't the right thread for it. (That thread does exist but totally sucks.)
Kiki is almost always the first thing I board out. It's there more as an alternative fetch target if Emrakul gets removed. A lot of people lke to run a set of Spirit Guides, because they enable a T1 Boom or T2 Blood Moon/Molten Rain, but in my area there are a lot of aggro decks and I've won a lot of games against Infect/Bogles because I was able to slow down the beats for a turn or two. If you play in an area full of non-aggro decks, then the walls/Kiki can go for the Guides. Your call.
I would never even think about removing Boom/Bust and GDD from this deck. Those are really important cards to the game plan. If you do that you are just running a non-disruptive RW aggro deck and I don't think there aretoo many of those having any success in the current meta.
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Sorry pal, but Dualcaster Mage is not a legal Modern card.
Think it through: BBE is a hasty 3/2 that gives you a random <4 drop. A 3/2 for 4 in Modern is already unplayable. Cascade would often make the card worth thinking about, but only if you can control what you're going to hit. Let me tell you, cascading into Utopia Sprawl is never going to feel good. Same thing goes for the elf. So what are you hoping for? Blood Moon and Stone Rain? On T4! Guess what I want to be casting on 4. Titan! Or Dragon! I'm hoping to already have Blood Moon in play by then, or have already hit Stone Rain and Acid Moss. Moreover...if I haven't, I'm prolly losing and BBE isn't going to turn anything around for me.
Here's another thought: How often are you going to look at BBE and Stone Rain in your hand and decide to cast BBE? The correct answer is pretty much never. If you are about to lose to Shadow and need the blocker is pretty much the only thing I can think of, and that's not a winning line.
Go ahead and test the hell out of it, but I played BBE a ton when he was in standard (He was amazing in Swans) and won't be wasting time/slots on BBE in Ponza.
Well, you should know that the most recent versions of the Cascade Balance deck run Blood Moons, so that's nothing new. Check out Ari Lax's deck from GP DFW.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpdfw16/restore-balance-with-ari-lax-2016-11-05
The problem I have with the Cascade-into-geddon concept is that you have to pair it with a threat. The Balance decks abuse the Balance by suspending Gargadon and sacrificing all their lands to the Gargadon with Balance on the stack. This turns Balance into Wrath/Geddon which is obviously better than Geddon. At the very least this gives you inevitability as sooner or later a Gargadon is going to demand interaction or it win the game. If you have the ability to play a threat then Geddon you might be okay, but in general I think I prefer the Balance because it does both. Still, you should 100% work on it. If it rocks then I definitely want to hear about it.
We've talked about the R/W decks that run Boom//Bust, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Flagstones, etc., but we haven't considered the cascade option. At first glance it doesn't look like it would be better than the existing option, i.e.: cascading into Balance/Living End will pretty much always be better than cascading into 'Geddon because that's how those decks deal with things like Bogles, so you should just play the Balance/Living End deck if you want to cascade. That said, it looks like a really neat idea. If you put it together and run it please let us know how it goes.
That said, I went back and looked at the primer here and while it's reasonably well constructed is does date back to 2012 and is just a tad out of date. It's due for a refresh.
/M
Yes. Everyone is still dissing Bonfire. Glad you are having a positive experience, but you seem to be the outlier. As ever, go with what makes you happy. But for all the reasons already mentioned (yes, it has been discussed to death) Bonfire is bad magic. At least without a lot of ways to set it up. If they reprint Brainstorm then I could see my opinion changing...at least in the right deck.
This is actually why I switched to the RW deck for awhile as it owns Jund, but as I prefer the RG deck I figured I should swing it again. Sooner or later probability has to swing back in my favour on that match-up...doesn't it?
I beat Fish, U-Tron and Affinity pretty easily, but lost to Jund when I hit a land pocket. Jund is actually a worse match-up for me than I think it ought to be.
I'm interested to see how it runs for you, but at the moment I am not qualified to comment on it. Once you get past Blood Moon, some bolts and Nahiri-Kul, it doesn't seem to want to do the same things my build wants to do.
I'm quite happy to talk about the Boros list wherever. There just needs to be some actual conversation about it. It's a very solid build, but as I said before, it is not very forgiving. You really have to practice and get a feel for it. There is lifegain in the deck (Helix/Ajani) and you can add more in the board if you need it (Timely Reinforcements, Finks). The big reason I like it though is the Leylines. One of the best ways to combat LD is to attack the hand with Thoughtseize, etc. I won a game against Jund where I mulled to 5 but got my Leyline, stranding 3 discard spells in his hand. Basically, I forced him into a triple mulligan. I might have still been in trouble if he'd gotten a fast 'Goyf or two, but that would be bad news for any deck.
Sounds like you should stick with R/G for now though. They are different decks and behave differently. I'd go with the one I'm most comfy with in any meaningful tourney. Go get that pin.
I find this a little surprising. In three months of playing the RW deck I've only run into a situation where I drew too many filter lands with no pure r or w producer in my opener once. This is the only possible drawback to Rugged Prairie. However, over the years, I have often drawn fast lands after T3. And this deck really needs lands coming in untapped. I have won games by topdecking the 5th land and GDD-ing into 'Geddon/Anger/Helix that I absolutely would have lost if the land came into play taped. As for not needing RR on T3 and WW of T4...when does having whatever combination of mana you may need hurt you? Not having RR on T3 for M. Rain is bad though. Not having RW on T2 for Helix can be equally bad (but that's not something that would suffer from fast land over RP).
I am not playing SSG as I find the walls too valuable against Infect, etc -- though even if I were, that invites variance. If you draw one of four SSGs (and don't use it to play T2 Moon) then you are okay. The wall blanks an attack (and often pulls a removal spell) and replaces itself (and in my deck has synergy with Resto/Kiki) while the SSG gives you a speed boost...maybe. Obviously you should play the deck (and any other deck) the way you like. These are just my observations.
Re: Chalice. What are you boarding Bolts out against? I don't think I've ever taken them out. Against anything. I have removed the Angers/Wrath/Walls against non creature decks, but Bolt can always go to the dome. I just can't think of a deck against which I want Chalice on 1 over Bolt - except Bogles...but I haven't lost to that yet, but there isn't a lot of it in my area right now. If there was I could really see hoping to go Land/SSG/Chalice on 1 in G2. And I guess 8-Rack. But is that even a thing right now?
Sorry to hear that Steven. That deck can be very persnickety. You really need to have a good idea of how to mulligan it properly. You also need to build it correctly and after a lot of trial and error I did come to a build I really like which is quite different to all the net decks you'll find. I'll share it here, although I'll add the caveat that this isn't the right thread for it. (That thread does exist but totally sucks.)
1 Ajani, Vengeant
3 Wall of Omens
2 Restoration Angel
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Wrath of God
4 Molten Rain
4 Boom//Bust
3 Blood Moon
4 Plains
4 Rugged Prairie
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Wrath of God
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Shatterstorm
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Stony Silence
1 Blood Moon
1 Wear//Tear
Kiki is almost always the first thing I board out. It's there more as an alternative fetch target if Emrakul gets removed. A lot of people lke to run a set of Spirit Guides, because they enable a T1 Boom or T2 Blood Moon/Molten Rain, but in my area there are a lot of aggro decks and I've won a lot of games against Infect/Bogles because I was able to slow down the beats for a turn or two. If you play in an area full of non-aggro decks, then the walls/Kiki can go for the Guides. Your call.
I would never even think about removing Boom/Bust and GDD from this deck. Those are really important cards to the game plan. If you do that you are just running a non-disruptive RW aggro deck and I don't think there aretoo many of those having any success in the current meta.