I'm still playing Grixis Cruel; I have ZERO plans to ever not be to be honest...
With that being said; I've been doing well in my Shop's Weekly Modern Event; still losing to play mistakes for not fully understanding the format; but I'm getting there.
All in all though I feel my list has been doing well; not sure how good it would be on the bigger stage.
My list is pretty similar to what I posted a lil bit back; but a I'm finding Spell Snare to start becoming very mediocre...
With that said; I really like the list that did well in a recent SCG: IQ.
Still gotta take the list with a grain of salt; it's just an IQ; not sure how many people were there; what his matchups were; etc. etc...
However; with that said; I have tweeked my list a bit I liked a bunch of things this list was doing.
#1. The Remands; although I've never been a big fan of Remand; I think it actually runs very well with Cruel Control decks. Ultimately we're stalling to cast Cruel; and because his list ran a few Discard Spells; plus the fact that Cruel makes the opponent Discard; I think Remand might actually be pretty acceptable. I'll be cutting Spell Snares and adding Remands; I'm not sold on 4 though; I'll be looking towards 2 or 3.
#2. I'm not a fan of Think Twice in the list; I'm going to keep my Serum Visions.
#4. Grave Titan; I am going to adopt this... I'd love to talk to the architect of this Grixis Cruel list; and ask him what situations he loves Grave Titan in? I suspect it's going to be solid VS alot of the Aggro decks; even VS Jund because they kill Titan; but you still have x2 2/2 Zombies out there. The only thing I see Grave Titan being bad against is Path to Exile.
#5. I still love Kolaghan's Commands; so my list will keep those around. They're great 2 for 1's VS alot of decks; specially Affinity. And it's INSANE VALUE to Kolaghan's Command Snapcaster; my list also runs Mulldrifter and now Grave Titan; so those are also Kolaghan's Command targets as well.
#6. I am a fan of the Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize in the mainboard. He ran a 2-2 Split of both; but I don't think that's necessary. I was running already a 1 of Vendilion Clique; but sometimes even that card was either too slow or too awkward; so I like the 1 CMC Discard spells; but I think 3 is plenty.
I don't think we need all 3; I think 1... maybe 2 is in order.
I love the Cyclonic Rift; I used to use it back in the day to return all Perms my Opponent had and then untap and cast a big time Rakdos's Return.
The issue I have with Cyclonic Rift is it's 7 mana to Overload it; which is the same cost as our Cruel; but in theory we're not always curving to a Turn 7 Cruel anyways; and it's not always the "Right" play to Cast Turn 7 Cruel anyhow even if we have it.
For starters I'm going to play test Echoing Truth; with Cyclonic Rift being a close 2nd; and the Devastation Tide being right in behind that in order of what I think is best. Best, Better, Good.
A card I've tried before with good results is Devastation Tide. We usually don't have any nonland permanents in play and a two mana reset is pretty good. I have used the card against bogles and it solicited an interesting reaction
That's not a bad one at all... my only issue with it is it's 5CMC and Sorcery.
So basically I'd need to tap out on Turn 6 or something to do this for them to Reset playing most of their stuff for me to Cruel on 7.
Part of the reason I like things like Cyclonic Rift or Echoing Truth is I can play it Turn 6 at Instant Speed in my opponents End Step; bounce a good chunk of their board; then Untap and Cruel forcing them to discard those cards I bounced.
That to me is a big selling point for Echoing Truth or Cyclonic Rift > Devastation Tide; but the Tide does have some things going for it and getting it for 2 on the Miracle cost is pretty gross. Works well with the Serum Visions too.
So I played Living Lore and honestly; it was cute; but meh...
Other then targeting Cruel Ultimatum with Living Lore; it's pretty bad.
I got it to work a few times; it was hella fun; but it won't be sticking around unfortunately.
It's also possible with Living Lore to resolve 2 Cruels on Turn 9. Turn 7 you Cruel; Turn 8 play Living Lore; Turn 9 Attack with Living Lore, Cast 1st Cruel for Free, with the Draw 3 hit either a Snapcaster or another Cruel and cast it too.
So it's pretty gross; but there's just not enough to enable it IMO. Meaning you get stuck with a Living Lore early in your hand; and no good Target in the yard to play Living Lore; so it just rots in your hand till everything else lines up.
Perhaps it's sideboard tech; but my sideboard is already pretty stacked; so I opted to go against it...
With that being said; I'm fully OFF the Hybrid Lists now... initially I tried Hybrid Grixis Control and merged in the Cruel strategy.
So it was 2 Tasigur, 2 Gurmags, or 2/3 split... and although it has it's good matchups; it also has it's bad ones...
The Grixis Control lists with the Tasigur/Gurmag focus get out played by Jund and True Control Decks.
So I have gone back and will be sticking with my Draw Go list and just being very slow and react to what my opponent throws at me and do hand checks here and there with Vendilion Clique; and Cruel.
Keranos and other Burn are the backup plans...
Out of the side; I've opted to get even more controlly...
This style of list I feel out grinds most of the Control decks; whoops on the Midrange Decks; and does well VS Aggro decks.
It struggles at times VS the Combo types of decks; you get the wrong half of your deck; all your Burn and Removal and they're casting spells to combo off on Turn 2 to 4....
Also weak VS TRON; and Lantern Mill decks... but Grixis has the colors to re-tool and refocus out of the sideboard; so although I'm happy with the mainboard; I'm still adjusting my sideboard periodically.
Looking at a few odd ball options for the Sideboard.
#1: Psychic Spiral VS Lantern Mill or other Mill Strategies. This actually also could be a decent SURPRISE VS other Grindy Decks that do have the ability to potentially out Grind. I don't know how many times I see myself get through MOST of my deck before I win. Wouldn't it be interesting if we do that; and then suddenly force a Spiral and restock while potentially MILLING our own opponent???
#2: Echoing Truth VS Alot of Decks that are all about playing alot of the same pieces to win... Lantern; Tokens; Merfolk; Affinity... Engineered Explosives obviously also does the trick; but sometimes we need to get rid of a Leyline and we don't really have the ability to get the Engineered Explosives to 4; so we're relying on bouncing with Cryptics. It's the same issue with Blood Moon; if it resolves; we can get Engineered Explosives to 3 pretty easily; but if that doesn't work; then we are relying on bouncing it with Cryptic. The other reason I like Echoing Truth is I can bring it back with Snapcaster Mage; where Engineered Explosives is a 1 time answer; and it never gets to come back. The other thing I like the idea of is being able to Echoing Truth; bounce a chunk of board from some of these decks; Untap then CRUEL forcing them to discard some of those things. Cyclonic Rift almost got the nod; but I think Echoing Truth is much much more flexible.
#3: Batwing Brume VS any Aggro/Midrange decks; and even some of the screwy decks where some of our removal doesn't work or becomes awkward... IE: Hexproof or creatures that don't mind dying that they replace themselves somehow... Having a backup like this could prove handy; it's Cheap; and it's a Snapcaster Target in a pinch. Sometimes with CRUEL; watching our Opponent go all in say on a Lethal Strike knowing all we need is that 1 chance to just Untap and Cruel and we can stabilize... Having no Instant Speed sweeper; I like what Brume might be able to do when things get out of hand... I haven't actually added this to my sideboard yet; but I do want to test it.
#4: Black Sun's Zenith VS Alot of the Aggro/Creature decks; sometimes again Damnation doesn't cut it; or Anger of the Gods doesn't cut it; VS Bogles for example at times... Sometimes it might just be best to -X-X a board full of creatures since those Negative Counters STAY on the creature and Black Sun's Zenith shuffles back into our Library. This also gets around some screwy situations... and it's handy against Indestructible things; not that I've seen a big problem with that kind of ability in Modern; but ya never know. I like it cuz it's Flexible; don't have to Cast it and Tap Out on it... Make a board full of creatures into 1 Power; or 0 Power; combined with Jace, Architect of Thought and you can really stall out a board full of creatures while you're working to get the Damnation. Or combined with Anger of the Gods; and you can "SHRINK" a board full of creatures to make them perfect Anger of the Gods targets. I haven't actually added this to my sideboard yet; but I want to play test it.
And one thing about Living Lore I'd like to mention; perhaps it ends up being relegated to the side if being played at all...
Theorizing to myself; how does a BURN deck beat a Turn 4 7/7 Living Lore? They don't really...
So we could theoretically have a Turn 5 CRUEL VS BURN decks...
So maybe it goes in the side; my Pyroclasm slot in the side is a throw away FLEX spot anyways; so maybe I put Living Lore there and bring it in VS BURN and bring it in VS decks that have a Blood Moon plan.
At any rate; I'm going to test Living Lore and see what I think... I put Living Lore in the mainboard in place of either a 2nd Mulldrifter or a 1 of Jace, Architect of Thought; so it's not like I'm losing alot of power with that slot being any of those.
Yesterday, i went 3:1 at a local fnm with Cruel Control, lost 0:2 against naya burn, won against merfolk (2:0), bogles (2:0) and grixis control (2:0). As for the list, i want to add another snapcaster, maybe go up to four serum visions. think twice and keranos did great for me, i might want to cut one clique and maybe go for the throat. For the sideboard, the only thing i'd want to replace is grave titan, maybe for ashiok or something along those lines.
One of the newest additions to my deck is Living Lore.
I admit; I haven't played with the card yet; but in theory I love what it might be able to do so I am going to test it.
#1: I see it as a 5th Snapcaster Mage. Let me explain: So on Turn 7 we cast Cruel; when it resolves we are looking for 2 things. #1 Another Cruel; #2 A Snapcaster so we can Flashback Cruel on Turn 9. What if we added a 3rd thing to that list... Living Lore? So if we hit a Living Lore on Turn 7 after a Resolved Cruel; that means on Turn 8; we can cast Living Lore with Cryptic Mana available; having counter backup we drop Living Lore out there as a 7/7. On Turn 9; we Attack; if Living Lore does ANY Damage either to a Creature or to a Player; we can SAC Living Lore; cast Cruel for Free; and with the "Return Target Creature from your GY to Hand" piece of Cruel; we just return Living Lore and do it again.
#2: Grixis Guru also mentioned that this could give us a way to cast Cruel Ultimatum when our opponent has a Blood Moon out that maybe we haven't been able to bounce or destroy yet with various tools.
#3: The interesting thing is; I also run a Forbidden Alchemy. I could even consider taking the Mulldrifter and making it another Alchemy. Sometimes I get to Alchemy on Turn 3; if I see a Cruel; dumping it in the Yard doesn't feel so terrible now. Because I can Living Lore on Turn 4 or even on Turn 5 with Spell Snare backup. And potentially end up with a Turn 6 Cruel.
#4: It might be worth giving the HYBRID builds a try again that I first started to try with the Thoughtscour. One of the reasons I wasn't a fan of the Hybrid ultimately was because Thoughtscour hitting and dumping a Cruel Ultimatum to the yard just made it harder to cast it... Now with Living Lore; it gives us the chance to bring it back out of the Yard easily instead of relying on a Turn 9 Snapcaster to Cruel to get it back.
#6: The CFB guys were trying to make Living Lore a combo piece; but what I'm proposing is that it's simply a pseudo 5th Snapcaster Mage; put it in a Control deck; we always end up having a lot of spells in the Yard; we always end up Casting Cruel if the Match goes the ways we want them to go and the way the decks are designed to go. Sure; Living Lore without Cruel looks awkward; Living Lore in our hand between Turns 1-6 is pretty blah for the most part; but I think it can give us another edge that most people won't expect.
Other than that; my list has been doing fairly well; I've been placing 2nd each week at my weekly LGS event; the 1 round I lose is mostly due to Play Mistakes.
I didn't do so hot at a PPTQ; but out of the 4 Matchups I played; I never felt Out Classed; still ironing out the Play Mistake Kinks of learning the format and learning all the decks that I have to battle.
So I'm very happy with my current list; and I'm very happy with the Sideboard; it's just a matter of continuing to plug away and grind out experience.
I could definitely see the 5th delve guy being a problem, because there were times when I would have to snap a thought scour for more graveyard cards to be able to delve and still have the spells I wanted in my yard. I mean maybe we could consider a 4th scour, but then I think we should just not be playing cruel anymore and that's just not acceptable to me.
Agreed; I'm steering clear of 4 Thought Scours because I'm running Cruels.
In fact I enjoyed the 2 Thought Scours yesterday; but that's perhaps because I run 2 Mulldrifters and I draw a bunch more cards.
It was pretty effective I thought.
I don't know what I want to replace my 3rd Gurmag with tho...
Alot of me wants a 3rd Cryptic... or a 4th Terminate.
I could even see myself re-adding the 1 of Jace for even more ability to see more Cards on any given game.
The few games I played; the 24 lands didn't feel like a hindrance as I had plenty of early game now and even if I didn't perfectly curve out to Turn 7 Cruel cuz I missed a land drop or 2; I still felt like I could easily get there.
So I gotta really analyze what I want to add in place of my 3rd Gurmag slot....
So I think I have decided on 4 delve dudes total with 24 lands for now as a test run...It also is going to allow me to see what works and what doesn't as far as the deck goes...so far I really like the synergy between Thought Scour, Kolaghan's Command,to get back any creature you may have milled that you really would rather have in hand and snapcaster to flashback the command for value and such. It really is what we was already doing just being done about 5 times faster. The delve guys have felt great, but any two in an opening hand without a thoughtscour feels like a Mulligan so I think four is the correct number for now. I will also say clique has never felt like it has so many uses...it can reset our own hand of a big spell if we are light on what we want and can still do all the things it does against our opponent and can take answers out of there hand before we drop a big guy on the field and it also let's us know what potential answers they may have which is always awesome.
Yea dude; list looks great; and I don't mind your differences as you've explained them very well to me and I appreciate your perspective.
I wish we could know if 4 Delve dudes is ok though before I spent another $12 on another FOIL Gurmag. HAHA
Now I'm locking in at 5 Delve dudes... haha Sometimes; the decisions we make on 1 card VS another are just so damn easy. FOIL? Not Foil? Ok; done. HAHA
So as Grixis Guru mentioned; we've been looking at bridging the gap a bit between the successful Grixis Control list that has the 3/2 Split of Delve Creatures... generally 3 Gurmag Angler 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang; while still giving us the Top End Cruel.
This has been my desire from the very beginning; trying to build a Hybrid of both decks; but I just kept the Gurmag/Tasigur package low; with now recently going really low to a 2 Tasigur 1 Tombstalker combination.
When Guru mentioned the desire to go even closer to the Control Shell I of course was happy to engage in that suggestion because that's what I've been wanting/trying to do just never really went ALL IN on it.
Hell my earlier lists even ran the Thought Scours with the Tasigur/Gurmag split that I was running... then it was just a 1/2 split with anywhere between 2 to 4 Thought Scour; but at that time I still hadn't tested Serum Visions either.
I was still trying to JAM Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker also; because I was still fresh back into Modern and those were the cards I wanted to be playing... it was spicy looking; I mean it's BOLAS.... LOL But after my first event; I immediately knew he wasn't going to make the cut.
So basically approx 2 months later; I've learned alot... studied alot of the matchups; understand alot of the matchups; and the Grixis Shells better... I jumped all over at Grixis Guru's idea to get a little closer to the Control Shell and build a true Hybrid instead of my halfway attempts.
So Guru has posted his list; here is what I came up with last night to match...
1.) So my first concern when Guru showed me his initial response to the idea that he posted here was also a concern about having only 23 lands. I'm not saying it can't be done; because far to often when I watch people play testing Grixis Control on Twitch; I see them sitting there with 7+ mana and they still get there... However; there's no way in hell I could run less than 24 lands and be able to look at myself in the mirror.... In fact; the 2nd Mulldrifter was still in keeping in line with 25 Land plan; but I do see the potential and think it's acceptable to drop it down to 24.
2.) My second concern is running Thought Scour along side Cruel Ultimatum. I've done it... Back when I first joined this Thread; in my initial builds. I've done it; and it's hella awkward and painful when you play Thought Scour and mill 1 or both of your Cruels. 2 Things happen when that happens.. #1: You're telling your opponent what your End Game Wild Card is... #2: Now you're making it so that Cruel is all but dead; not going to be able to cast it till at the earliest Turn 9 because you'll have to Snapcaster and Flashback Cruel. It's a very slim chance that you're going to get Cruel back with Tasigur's ability. I have done that once; so it has happened; but it's insanely SLIM. So that is why I am not ALL in on the Thought Scour plan like the Control lists are; their game plan is that Turn 2 Tasigur/Gurmag and protect it with Counterspells. But if you are able to get past their counters and keep those pair off the board; they struggle... So Thought Scour for them is amazing... But for me; I'm wanting to be a bit more subtle about it... Tasigur/Gurmag can still come down on Turn 2; they can still come down when it's relevant; we still have the option to protect them with Counters and race decks in certain matchups; and if that plan goes to hell; we have CRUELs that will Restock us. But not if we milled it with Thought Scour... Ewww; just ewwww... it hurts my heart when it happens; and it will happen.
3.) I am not a fan of Guru's Remand or 3rd Cryptic; but he makes great points about them and I'm good with his stance.
I mean let's be honest; when it's all said and done; there's approx 12 to 15 cards in ALL Grixis lists that are quite frankly interchangeable.
But all the rest should be the same if they are successful.
So of those 12 to 15 cards; those are either Meta Game Decisions or Personal Play Style Decisions.... so I won't nit pick too badly about a 3rd Cryptic or a Remand. To each his own...
4.) Also; the concern of no Damnation/Anger was brought up. IN my earlier lists I felt less of a need to run Damnation. But I ran more Tasigurs/Gurmags than I did recently.... recently my last list had 2 Delve Dudes; at most 3... With so many Delve Dudes now 5 total; plus our Counters and Removal; I do feel like the Gurmags/Tasigurs are going to help keep us up on the board position and Damnations will be less needed now. Besides; there's a reason Grixis Control runs 0 - 1 Damnation and it's usually sitting in the side... because they don't want to kill their own Board Position of Gurmag/Tasigur or other things. With that said; I think 1 Damnation could make it in the side; but I for one ain't too worried about BIG dudes; I'm more worried about being swarmed out... by CoCo decks; or Elves, Goblins, stuff like that... So I upped my Anger of the Gods Count instead as I feel the Gurmags/Tasigurs + Removal + Counters + Cruels will keep the midrange strategies at bay just fine.
With that all being said; I'm very happy having gone more closer to the HYBRID idea that I initially wanted to do; I just wasn't as close to the Control side as I am now...
I love the look of being closer to the Control Shell with the early game being beefy Tasigur/Gurmag and our Burn.
Sure; Cruels in this list could very well be Win More? But I see it far to often with Testers on Twitch.... They die to a single Etched Champion? Sitting on 7... 8...9 mana; when a Cruel would bail them out?
Or I see these Control Lists playing with all their Gurmags/Tasigurs and doing all the Kolaghan's Command shananigans; but their opponent is able to keep pace with the threats and answer them all... like a Red Deck runs out of steam; so does the Grixis Control list if the opponent manages to keep up the answers. We have Cruel to restock and re-arm ourselves?
So I like the looks of going closer to the Control list; while maintaining our Cruel Ultimatum evil desires...
The Gurmag/Tasigurs give us an option to Race alot of decks; and if we can't Race; well Cruels allow us to restock and swing the games back into our Favor if they're getting out of control.
So there's my list take on what myself and Guru talked about... I do believe after his initial list and us discussing things in private; he did up his land count back to 24; and I dropped mine from 25 to 24.
psychic rebuttal looks like it is awesome against burn and jund. they play discard spells and you'll just be like nope, you discard. its about as funny as someone redirecting hymn to tourach.
which is really funny when it happens it's just so cruel.
I like the Rebuttal; but correct me if I'm wrong; Don't some of their burn spells say "Target Opponent"? And thus if that's true; wouldn't that negate the Rebuttal and make it a bit less spicy as it might initially seem?
Just curious; otherwise I do think it's a pretty sweet trick and warrants 1 of in the side... Could take the place of the Countersquall or even the Dispel from my list.
Im not an expert at Magic rules, but I believe since the spell states "that targets you" anything targeting your face is a viable target for it, even if it stays opponent. Could be wrong though
Will be interesting to find out for sure; I'm no judge either; and sometimes these little wordings trip me up but I always find out...
So it'll be good to know.
At any rate; worst case scenario; I think it's great as a 1 of replacing a Dispel or even the Countersquall in my board.
Might even be better than Dispel in general...
And it'll be even better if it doesn't get hindered by any kind of "Opponent" wording.
psychic rebuttal looks like it is awesome against burn and jund. they play discard spells and you'll just be like nope, you discard. its about as funny as someone redirecting hymn to tourach.
which is really funny when it happens it's just so cruel.
I like the Rebuttal; but correct me if I'm wrong; Don't some of their burn spells say "Target Opponent"? And thus if that's true; wouldn't that negate the Rebuttal and make it a bit less spicy as it might initially seem?
Just curious; otherwise I do think it's a pretty sweet trick and warrants 1 of in the side... Could take the place of the Countersquall or even the Dispel from my list.
We've had this discussion before, and my point then maybe wasn't explained in depth enough... I mean it isn't a guarantee in anyway but I feel like in the burn match we are generally casting things early and even as something as small as a snapcaster is able to attack for 5 life if we can tap out for seclusion on turn 5. If we have a clique that's a solid 6 life and tasigur or Gurmag 7 or 8 life. It also works out with our Tar pits for some nasty racing potential there too. It's definitely not perfect by any means, but I feel it gives us a more than fair shot and it more than likely isn't a one turn deal.
No I agree now and I agreed then I think.
Not a big fan of Seclusion; but I didn't test it; and theoretically it's just as much theorycrafting as my GoTo card of Suffer from the Past.
Both of which have issues dealing with the same answers; cuz incidentally Skullcrack and Atarka's Command keeps Seclusion off balance too the same way that it would stop a Suffer for 1 turn.
At any rate; I think we've both agreed to move on past the Artifact being the Savior in this Match.
I'm actually going to get me a Seclusion and play test it and see how it goes for me...
I think I've justified my position on Suffer the Past; but you've also made good points for Seclusion; and we both agree; neither one of them is a guarantee.
I don't just use Suffer the Past VS Burn; this is why I use Suffer the Past; because I also bring it in VS decks that have GY interactions.
IE: I brought it in VS the Living End deck; I didn't see it and didn't need it; but it's handy if I draw it in a pinch.
I brought it in VS the Mono Black Aggro match; and it was handy as it Exiled a few of the creatures that can be played from the GY. Gain about 4 or 5 Life and stop their resiliency.
As far as Burn; yes burn has what? Skullcrack? Atarka's Command? So sure; I supposed they could be running 4 of each of those; but generally they don't. They are usually running 4 Atarka's Command; and anywhere between 0 to 2 Skullcracks. I'm not sure I've ever seen a deck running all 8 of these.
With that being said; the one area I feel we absolutely DON'T want; is Artifacts.
Enchantments might be an option simply because all they really have to destroy the Enchantment is Destructive Revelry. And generally they have 3 or 4 of those.
So the odds are still about the same as my Suffer the Past option; and depending upon the list could be a better option that the Suffer the Past.
If anyones expecting an Artifact to solve the matchup; they'll be sorely mistaken because not only do they run Destructive Revelery; but also Smash to Smithereens.
So there's usually anywhere between 5 to 8 answers that also do damage.
SO I could get behind an Enchantment.
The reason I liked Suffer the Past is because I can Snapcaster Mage it back even if they do try to stop it with an Atarka's Command or Skullcrack early.
Where if they destroy the Enchantment; we have no way to get it back really...
The problem I have though with your Enchantment choice of Homicidal Seclusion; you're tapping out for it on Turn 5.
So hopefully to get max value out of it; hopefully you have the Gurmag or Tasigur in play already to swing and gain a bunch... but with these CRUEL lists; if you're running the Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker package; you're running anywhere between 2 to 3 of those guys; so you're not guaranteed to have 1 of those creatures already out when you need to cast the Seclusion. Suffer the Past doesn't require anything else to make it work...
With Suffer the Past; I can tap all the way out but leave up 1 BLUE ISLAND and gain 4 or 5 life; if they try to Skullcrack or Atarka's Command it; I cast Spell Snare; or if I leave 2 mana up cast Mana Leak or something to potentially stop it; and gain 3 to 4 life... Most times that's all we need to buy ourselves 1 or 2 more turns.
So if I was to go Enchantment; I'd want something cheaper... something I could cast around Turn 5 and protect it; something that wouldn't require another card to make it work.
The other options we talked about privately was creature options...
The thing is; it's only ever going to be a 1 OF in my side... So I think the more impactful 1 of is Suffer the Past.
Having a 1 of Nighthawk; IDK if it's that impactful in more than just 1 matchup.
A 1 of Murk Lurker? Yea no...
A 1 of Homicidal Seclusion? Meh... ok.
Thus far I've been happy with Suffer the Past; I haven't been Skullcracked or Atarka's Commanded when I've used it yet thankfully; generally I either see the Suffer early and cast it when I "NEED" a little chunk of life to get me to Turn 7 to survive 1 or 2 more turns; and just be sure I'm not being too greedy with it when I cast the first one so I can protect it. And then Snapcaster it back and cast it for bigger later.
The other thing I like about Suffer though is we really can go down the BURN path against the Burn players... Lightning Bolts; Electrolyze; Kolaghan's Command; 1 or 2 Swings with a Gurmag; and then a Lethal Suffer the Past.
Even if they Skullcrack it; the damage still gets through...
Just some thoughts; I've gone into great lengths analyzing the Burn matchup; and I haven't lost to a Burn opponent in a few weeks.
Granted; I don't have a meta filled with Burn decks; there's really only 1 or 2 of the people I play against that plays it; and it's so inconsistent and easy to break when you break it... that some weeks it doesn't do well; some weeks it wins.
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With that being said; I've been doing well in my Shop's Weekly Modern Event; still losing to play mistakes for not fully understanding the format; but I'm getting there.
All in all though I feel my list has been doing well; not sure how good it would be on the bigger stage.
My list is pretty similar to what I posted a lil bit back; but a I'm finding Spell Snare to start becoming very mediocre...
With that said; I really like the list that did well in a recent SCG: IQ.
Still gotta take the list with a grain of salt; it's just an IQ; not sure how many people were there; what his matchups were; etc. etc...
However; with that said; I have tweeked my list a bit I liked a bunch of things this list was doing.
#1. The Remands; although I've never been a big fan of Remand; I think it actually runs very well with Cruel Control decks. Ultimately we're stalling to cast Cruel; and because his list ran a few Discard Spells; plus the fact that Cruel makes the opponent Discard; I think Remand might actually be pretty acceptable. I'll be cutting Spell Snares and adding Remands; I'm not sold on 4 though; I'll be looking towards 2 or 3.
#2. I'm not a fan of Think Twice in the list; I'm going to keep my Serum Visions.
#3. I'm a big fan of Mulldrifter and Forbidden Alchemy; so my list will keep those.
#4. Grave Titan; I am going to adopt this... I'd love to talk to the architect of this Grixis Cruel list; and ask him what situations he loves Grave Titan in? I suspect it's going to be solid VS alot of the Aggro decks; even VS Jund because they kill Titan; but you still have x2 2/2 Zombies out there. The only thing I see Grave Titan being bad against is Path to Exile.
#5. I still love Kolaghan's Commands; so my list will keep those around. They're great 2 for 1's VS alot of decks; specially Affinity. And it's INSANE VALUE to Kolaghan's Command Snapcaster; my list also runs Mulldrifter and now Grave Titan; so those are also Kolaghan's Command targets as well.
#6. I am a fan of the Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize in the mainboard. He ran a 2-2 Split of both; but I don't think that's necessary. I was running already a 1 of Vendilion Clique; but sometimes even that card was either too slow or too awkward; so I like the 1 CMC Discard spells; but I think 3 is plenty.
#7. Not a fan of Slaughter Pact or Coalition Relic; so those won't be in my list.
#8. Not a fan of cutting the Sweepers; but I'm willing to give it a try namely because Grave Titan can go a long way to clog the board.
So my list:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grave Titan
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 29
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
3 Remand
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Serum Visions
1 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Echoing Truth
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Shatterstorm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Sowing Salt
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Dreadbore
1 Go for the Throat
2 Anger of the Gods
I love the Cyclonic Rift; I used to use it back in the day to return all Perms my Opponent had and then untap and cast a big time Rakdos's Return.
The issue I have with Cyclonic Rift is it's 7 mana to Overload it; which is the same cost as our Cruel; but in theory we're not always curving to a Turn 7 Cruel anyways; and it's not always the "Right" play to Cast Turn 7 Cruel anyhow even if we have it.
For starters I'm going to play test Echoing Truth; with Cyclonic Rift being a close 2nd; and the Devastation Tide being right in behind that in order of what I think is best. Best, Better, Good.
That's not a bad one at all... my only issue with it is it's 5CMC and Sorcery.
So basically I'd need to tap out on Turn 6 or something to do this for them to Reset playing most of their stuff for me to Cruel on 7.
Part of the reason I like things like Cyclonic Rift or Echoing Truth is I can play it Turn 6 at Instant Speed in my opponents End Step; bounce a good chunk of their board; then Untap and Cruel forcing them to discard those cards I bounced.
That to me is a big selling point for Echoing Truth or Cyclonic Rift > Devastation Tide; but the Tide does have some things going for it and getting it for 2 on the Miracle cost is pretty gross. Works well with the Serum Visions too.
Other then targeting Cruel Ultimatum with Living Lore; it's pretty bad.
I got it to work a few times; it was hella fun; but it won't be sticking around unfortunately.
It's also possible with Living Lore to resolve 2 Cruels on Turn 9. Turn 7 you Cruel; Turn 8 play Living Lore; Turn 9 Attack with Living Lore, Cast 1st Cruel for Free, with the Draw 3 hit either a Snapcaster or another Cruel and cast it too.
So it's pretty gross; but there's just not enough to enable it IMO. Meaning you get stuck with a Living Lore early in your hand; and no good Target in the yard to play Living Lore; so it just rots in your hand till everything else lines up.
Perhaps it's sideboard tech; but my sideboard is already pretty stacked; so I opted to go against it...
With that being said; I'm fully OFF the Hybrid Lists now... initially I tried Hybrid Grixis Control and merged in the Cruel strategy.
So it was 2 Tasigur, 2 Gurmags, or 2/3 split... and although it has it's good matchups; it also has it's bad ones...
The Grixis Control lists with the Tasigur/Gurmag focus get out played by Jund and True Control Decks.
So I have gone back and will be sticking with my Draw Go list and just being very slow and react to what my opponent throws at me and do hand checks here and there with Vendilion Clique; and Cruel.
Keranos and other Burn are the backup plans...
Out of the side; I've opted to get even more controlly...
This style of list I feel out grinds most of the Control decks; whoops on the Midrange Decks; and does well VS Aggro decks.
It struggles at times VS the Combo types of decks; you get the wrong half of your deck; all your Burn and Removal and they're casting spells to combo off on Turn 2 to 4....
Also weak VS TRON; and Lantern Mill decks... but Grixis has the colors to re-tool and refocus out of the sideboard; so although I'm happy with the mainboard; I'm still adjusting my sideboard periodically.
Looking at a few odd ball options for the Sideboard.
#1: Psychic Spiral VS Lantern Mill or other Mill Strategies. This actually also could be a decent SURPRISE VS other Grindy Decks that do have the ability to potentially out Grind. I don't know how many times I see myself get through MOST of my deck before I win. Wouldn't it be interesting if we do that; and then suddenly force a Spiral and restock while potentially MILLING our own opponent???
#2: Echoing Truth VS Alot of Decks that are all about playing alot of the same pieces to win... Lantern; Tokens; Merfolk; Affinity... Engineered Explosives obviously also does the trick; but sometimes we need to get rid of a Leyline and we don't really have the ability to get the Engineered Explosives to 4; so we're relying on bouncing with Cryptics. It's the same issue with Blood Moon; if it resolves; we can get Engineered Explosives to 3 pretty easily; but if that doesn't work; then we are relying on bouncing it with Cryptic. The other reason I like Echoing Truth is I can bring it back with Snapcaster Mage; where Engineered Explosives is a 1 time answer; and it never gets to come back. The other thing I like the idea of is being able to Echoing Truth; bounce a chunk of board from some of these decks; Untap then CRUEL forcing them to discard some of those things. Cyclonic Rift almost got the nod; but I think Echoing Truth is much much more flexible.
#3: Batwing Brume VS any Aggro/Midrange decks; and even some of the screwy decks where some of our removal doesn't work or becomes awkward... IE: Hexproof or creatures that don't mind dying that they replace themselves somehow... Having a backup like this could prove handy; it's Cheap; and it's a Snapcaster Target in a pinch. Sometimes with CRUEL; watching our Opponent go all in say on a Lethal Strike knowing all we need is that 1 chance to just Untap and Cruel and we can stabilize... Having no Instant Speed sweeper; I like what Brume might be able to do when things get out of hand... I haven't actually added this to my sideboard yet; but I do want to test it.
#4: Black Sun's Zenith VS Alot of the Aggro/Creature decks; sometimes again Damnation doesn't cut it; or Anger of the Gods doesn't cut it; VS Bogles for example at times... Sometimes it might just be best to -X-X a board full of creatures since those Negative Counters STAY on the creature and Black Sun's Zenith shuffles back into our Library. This also gets around some screwy situations... and it's handy against Indestructible things; not that I've seen a big problem with that kind of ability in Modern; but ya never know. I like it cuz it's Flexible; don't have to Cast it and Tap Out on it... Make a board full of creatures into 1 Power; or 0 Power; combined with Jace, Architect of Thought and you can really stall out a board full of creatures while you're working to get the Damnation. Or combined with Anger of the Gods; and you can "SHRINK" a board full of creatures to make them perfect Anger of the Gods targets. I haven't actually added this to my sideboard yet; but I want to play test it.
...just some sideboard ideas
Theorizing to myself; how does a BURN deck beat a Turn 4 7/7 Living Lore? They don't really...
So we could theoretically have a Turn 5 CRUEL VS BURN decks...
So maybe it goes in the side; my Pyroclasm slot in the side is a throw away FLEX spot anyways; so maybe I put Living Lore there and bring it in VS BURN and bring it in VS decks that have a Blood Moon plan.
At any rate; I'm going to test Living Lore and see what I think... I put Living Lore in the mainboard in place of either a 2nd Mulldrifter or a 1 of Jace, Architect of Thought; so it's not like I'm losing alot of power with that slot being any of those.
This is very very close to where my list has gone; more of a Draw Go style now.
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Mulldrifter
1 Living Lore
Spells: 28
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
1 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
2 Flashfreeze
1 Sowing Salt
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Shatterstorm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
One of the newest additions to my deck is Living Lore.
I admit; I haven't played with the card yet; but in theory I love what it might be able to do so I am going to test it.
#1: I see it as a 5th Snapcaster Mage. Let me explain: So on Turn 7 we cast Cruel; when it resolves we are looking for 2 things. #1 Another Cruel; #2 A Snapcaster so we can Flashback Cruel on Turn 9. What if we added a 3rd thing to that list... Living Lore? So if we hit a Living Lore on Turn 7 after a Resolved Cruel; that means on Turn 8; we can cast Living Lore with Cryptic Mana available; having counter backup we drop Living Lore out there as a 7/7. On Turn 9; we Attack; if Living Lore does ANY Damage either to a Creature or to a Player; we can SAC Living Lore; cast Cruel for Free; and with the "Return Target Creature from your GY to Hand" piece of Cruel; we just return Living Lore and do it again.
#2: Grixis Guru also mentioned that this could give us a way to cast Cruel Ultimatum when our opponent has a Blood Moon out that maybe we haven't been able to bounce or destroy yet with various tools.
#3: The interesting thing is; I also run a Forbidden Alchemy. I could even consider taking the Mulldrifter and making it another Alchemy. Sometimes I get to Alchemy on Turn 3; if I see a Cruel; dumping it in the Yard doesn't feel so terrible now. Because I can Living Lore on Turn 4 or even on Turn 5 with Spell Snare backup. And potentially end up with a Turn 6 Cruel.
#4: It might be worth giving the HYBRID builds a try again that I first started to try with the Thoughtscour. One of the reasons I wasn't a fan of the Hybrid ultimately was because Thoughtscour hitting and dumping a Cruel Ultimatum to the yard just made it harder to cast it... Now with Living Lore; it gives us the chance to bring it back out of the Yard easily instead of relying on a Turn 9 Snapcaster to Cruel to get it back.
#5: Living Lore plays nice with Kolaghan's Command too.
#6: The CFB guys were trying to make Living Lore a combo piece; but what I'm proposing is that it's simply a pseudo 5th Snapcaster Mage; put it in a Control deck; we always end up having a lot of spells in the Yard; we always end up Casting Cruel if the Match goes the ways we want them to go and the way the decks are designed to go. Sure; Living Lore without Cruel looks awkward; Living Lore in our hand between Turns 1-6 is pretty blah for the most part; but I think it can give us another edge that most people won't expect.
Other than that; my list has been doing fairly well; I've been placing 2nd each week at my weekly LGS event; the 1 round I lose is mostly due to Play Mistakes.
I didn't do so hot at a PPTQ; but out of the 4 Matchups I played; I never felt Out Classed; still ironing out the Play Mistake Kinks of learning the format and learning all the decks that I have to battle.
So I'm very happy with my current list; and I'm very happy with the Sideboard; it's just a matter of continuing to plug away and grind out experience.
/Cheers
Agreed; I'm steering clear of 4 Thought Scours because I'm running Cruels.
In fact I enjoyed the 2 Thought Scours yesterday; but that's perhaps because I run 2 Mulldrifters and I draw a bunch more cards.
It was pretty effective I thought.
I don't know what I want to replace my 3rd Gurmag with tho...
Alot of me wants a 3rd Cryptic... or a 4th Terminate.
I could even see myself re-adding the 1 of Jace for even more ability to see more Cards on any given game.
The few games I played; the 24 lands didn't feel like a hindrance as I had plenty of early game now and even if I didn't perfectly curve out to Turn 7 Cruel cuz I missed a land drop or 2; I still felt like I could easily get there.
So I gotta really analyze what I want to add in place of my 3rd Gurmag slot....
I didn't get to really play last night; just some play testing that was successful; but I did feel like Gurmags and Tasigurs clogged my hand a bit.
So I think I'll also goto a 2/2 Split and add something else.
Yea dude; list looks great; and I don't mind your differences as you've explained them very well to me and I appreciate your perspective.
I wish we could know if 4 Delve dudes is ok though before I spent another $12 on another FOIL Gurmag. HAHA
Now I'm locking in at 5 Delve dudes... haha Sometimes; the decisions we make on 1 card VS another are just so damn easy. FOIL? Not Foil? Ok; done. HAHA
This has been my desire from the very beginning; trying to build a Hybrid of both decks; but I just kept the Gurmag/Tasigur package low; with now recently going really low to a 2 Tasigur 1 Tombstalker combination.
When Guru mentioned the desire to go even closer to the Control Shell I of course was happy to engage in that suggestion because that's what I've been wanting/trying to do just never really went ALL IN on it.
Hell my earlier lists even ran the Thought Scours with the Tasigur/Gurmag split that I was running... then it was just a 1/2 split with anywhere between 2 to 4 Thought Scour; but at that time I still hadn't tested Serum Visions either.
I was still trying to JAM Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker also; because I was still fresh back into Modern and those were the cards I wanted to be playing... it was spicy looking; I mean it's BOLAS.... LOL But after my first event; I immediately knew he wasn't going to make the cut.
So basically approx 2 months later; I've learned alot... studied alot of the matchups; understand alot of the matchups; and the Grixis Shells better... I jumped all over at Grixis Guru's idea to get a little closer to the Control Shell and build a true Hybrid instead of my halfway attempts.
So Guru has posted his list; here is what I came up with last night to match...
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 25
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
2 Flashfreeze
1 Countersquall
1 Vandalblast
1 Sowing Salt
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Go for the Throat
2 Magma Spray
1.) So my first concern when Guru showed me his initial response to the idea that he posted here was also a concern about having only 23 lands. I'm not saying it can't be done; because far to often when I watch people play testing Grixis Control on Twitch; I see them sitting there with 7+ mana and they still get there... However; there's no way in hell I could run less than 24 lands and be able to look at myself in the mirror.... In fact; the 2nd Mulldrifter was still in keeping in line with 25 Land plan; but I do see the potential and think it's acceptable to drop it down to 24.
2.) My second concern is running Thought Scour along side Cruel Ultimatum. I've done it... Back when I first joined this Thread; in my initial builds. I've done it; and it's hella awkward and painful when you play Thought Scour and mill 1 or both of your Cruels. 2 Things happen when that happens.. #1: You're telling your opponent what your End Game Wild Card is... #2: Now you're making it so that Cruel is all but dead; not going to be able to cast it till at the earliest Turn 9 because you'll have to Snapcaster and Flashback Cruel. It's a very slim chance that you're going to get Cruel back with Tasigur's ability. I have done that once; so it has happened; but it's insanely SLIM. So that is why I am not ALL in on the Thought Scour plan like the Control lists are; their game plan is that Turn 2 Tasigur/Gurmag and protect it with Counterspells. But if you are able to get past their counters and keep those pair off the board; they struggle... So Thought Scour for them is amazing... But for me; I'm wanting to be a bit more subtle about it... Tasigur/Gurmag can still come down on Turn 2; they can still come down when it's relevant; we still have the option to protect them with Counters and race decks in certain matchups; and if that plan goes to hell; we have CRUELs that will Restock us. But not if we milled it with Thought Scour... Ewww; just ewwww... it hurts my heart when it happens; and it will happen.
3.) I am not a fan of Guru's Remand or 3rd Cryptic; but he makes great points about them and I'm good with his stance.
I mean let's be honest; when it's all said and done; there's approx 12 to 15 cards in ALL Grixis lists that are quite frankly interchangeable.
But all the rest should be the same if they are successful.
So of those 12 to 15 cards; those are either Meta Game Decisions or Personal Play Style Decisions.... so I won't nit pick too badly about a 3rd Cryptic or a Remand. To each his own...
4.) Also; the concern of no Damnation/Anger was brought up. IN my earlier lists I felt less of a need to run Damnation. But I ran more Tasigurs/Gurmags than I did recently.... recently my last list had 2 Delve Dudes; at most 3... With so many Delve Dudes now 5 total; plus our Counters and Removal; I do feel like the Gurmags/Tasigurs are going to help keep us up on the board position and Damnations will be less needed now. Besides; there's a reason Grixis Control runs 0 - 1 Damnation and it's usually sitting in the side... because they don't want to kill their own Board Position of Gurmag/Tasigur or other things. With that said; I think 1 Damnation could make it in the side; but I for one ain't too worried about BIG dudes; I'm more worried about being swarmed out... by CoCo decks; or Elves, Goblins, stuff like that... So I upped my Anger of the Gods Count instead as I feel the Gurmags/Tasigurs + Removal + Counters + Cruels will keep the midrange strategies at bay just fine.
With that all being said; I'm very happy having gone more closer to the HYBRID idea that I initially wanted to do; I just wasn't as close to the Control side as I am now...
I love the look of being closer to the Control Shell with the early game being beefy Tasigur/Gurmag and our Burn.
Sure; Cruels in this list could very well be Win More? But I see it far to often with Testers on Twitch.... They die to a single Etched Champion? Sitting on 7... 8...9 mana; when a Cruel would bail them out?
Or I see these Control Lists playing with all their Gurmags/Tasigurs and doing all the Kolaghan's Command shananigans; but their opponent is able to keep pace with the threats and answer them all... like a Red Deck runs out of steam; so does the Grixis Control list if the opponent manages to keep up the answers. We have Cruel to restock and re-arm ourselves?
So I like the looks of going closer to the Control list; while maintaining our Cruel Ultimatum evil desires...
The Gurmag/Tasigurs give us an option to Race alot of decks; and if we can't Race; well Cruels allow us to restock and swing the games back into our Favor if they're getting out of control.
So there's my list take on what myself and Guru talked about... I do believe after his initial list and us discussing things in private; he did up his land count back to 24; and I dropped mine from 25 to 24.
I think we def want at the very least 24.
Anyways..... /cheers
Good stuff!!
So yea that could be an interesting 1 of in our Sideboard; I still couldn't see anything more than 1; maybe 2 max.
Will be interesting to find out for sure; I'm no judge either; and sometimes these little wordings trip me up but I always find out...
So it'll be good to know.
At any rate; worst case scenario; I think it's great as a 1 of replacing a Dispel or even the Countersquall in my board.
Might even be better than Dispel in general...
And it'll be even better if it doesn't get hindered by any kind of "Opponent" wording.
I like the Rebuttal; but correct me if I'm wrong; Don't some of their burn spells say "Target Opponent"? And thus if that's true; wouldn't that negate the Rebuttal and make it a bit less spicy as it might initially seem?
Just curious; otherwise I do think it's a pretty sweet trick and warrants 1 of in the side... Could take the place of the Countersquall or even the Dispel from my list.
No I agree now and I agreed then I think.
Not a big fan of Seclusion; but I didn't test it; and theoretically it's just as much theorycrafting as my GoTo card of Suffer from the Past.
Both of which have issues dealing with the same answers; cuz incidentally Skullcrack and Atarka's Command keeps Seclusion off balance too the same way that it would stop a Suffer for 1 turn.
At any rate; I think we've both agreed to move on past the Artifact being the Savior in this Match.
I'm actually going to get me a Seclusion and play test it and see how it goes for me...
I think I've justified my position on Suffer the Past; but you've also made good points for Seclusion; and we both agree; neither one of them is a guarantee.
I'm going to price a FOIL Seclusion now... HEHE
IE: I brought it in VS the Living End deck; I didn't see it and didn't need it; but it's handy if I draw it in a pinch.
I brought it in VS the Mono Black Aggro match; and it was handy as it Exiled a few of the creatures that can be played from the GY. Gain about 4 or 5 Life and stop their resiliency.
As far as Burn; yes burn has what? Skullcrack? Atarka's Command? So sure; I supposed they could be running 4 of each of those; but generally they don't. They are usually running 4 Atarka's Command; and anywhere between 0 to 2 Skullcracks. I'm not sure I've ever seen a deck running all 8 of these.
With that being said; the one area I feel we absolutely DON'T want; is Artifacts.
Enchantments might be an option simply because all they really have to destroy the Enchantment is Destructive Revelry. And generally they have 3 or 4 of those.
So the odds are still about the same as my Suffer the Past option; and depending upon the list could be a better option that the Suffer the Past.
If anyones expecting an Artifact to solve the matchup; they'll be sorely mistaken because not only do they run Destructive Revelery; but also Smash to Smithereens.
So there's usually anywhere between 5 to 8 answers that also do damage.
SO I could get behind an Enchantment.
The reason I liked Suffer the Past is because I can Snapcaster Mage it back even if they do try to stop it with an Atarka's Command or Skullcrack early.
Where if they destroy the Enchantment; we have no way to get it back really...
The problem I have though with your Enchantment choice of Homicidal Seclusion; you're tapping out for it on Turn 5.
So hopefully to get max value out of it; hopefully you have the Gurmag or Tasigur in play already to swing and gain a bunch... but with these CRUEL lists; if you're running the Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker package; you're running anywhere between 2 to 3 of those guys; so you're not guaranteed to have 1 of those creatures already out when you need to cast the Seclusion. Suffer the Past doesn't require anything else to make it work...
With Suffer the Past; I can tap all the way out but leave up 1 BLUE ISLAND and gain 4 or 5 life; if they try to Skullcrack or Atarka's Command it; I cast Spell Snare; or if I leave 2 mana up cast Mana Leak or something to potentially stop it; and gain 3 to 4 life... Most times that's all we need to buy ourselves 1 or 2 more turns.
So if I was to go Enchantment; I'd want something cheaper... something I could cast around Turn 5 and protect it; something that wouldn't require another card to make it work.
The other options we talked about privately was creature options...
I really do like Murk Lurkers; and also Vampire Nighthawks; I'm interested to give Nighthawks a try too.
The thing is; it's only ever going to be a 1 OF in my side... So I think the more impactful 1 of is Suffer the Past.
Having a 1 of Nighthawk; IDK if it's that impactful in more than just 1 matchup.
A 1 of Murk Lurker? Yea no...
A 1 of Homicidal Seclusion? Meh... ok.
Thus far I've been happy with Suffer the Past; I haven't been Skullcracked or Atarka's Commanded when I've used it yet thankfully; generally I either see the Suffer early and cast it when I "NEED" a little chunk of life to get me to Turn 7 to survive 1 or 2 more turns; and just be sure I'm not being too greedy with it when I cast the first one so I can protect it. And then Snapcaster it back and cast it for bigger later.
The other thing I like about Suffer though is we really can go down the BURN path against the Burn players... Lightning Bolts; Electrolyze; Kolaghan's Command; 1 or 2 Swings with a Gurmag; and then a Lethal Suffer the Past.
Even if they Skullcrack it; the damage still gets through...
Just some thoughts; I've gone into great lengths analyzing the Burn matchup; and I haven't lost to a Burn opponent in a few weeks.
Granted; I don't have a meta filled with Burn decks; there's really only 1 or 2 of the people I play against that plays it; and it's so inconsistent and easy to break when you break it... that some weeks it doesn't do well; some weeks it wins.