First, I believe there is such a thing as Cruel-less Grixis Control. If you forego the namesake card, the mana-base can be a lot better and you can afford utility lands. For instance, if Jace 1.0 ever became legal in Modern, I think it would be tough to argue for Cruel Ultimatum. Having said that, cruel is a very good card. The first is often good enough to bring us back into the game, and the second is back-breaking. It is, however a late-game trump.
In looking for other great cards, Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine are obvious candidates. The life-gain is obviously huge. We've also seen Keranos, God of Storms, even in Legacy decks, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that it's another option for us. Of course, big daddy Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is another late-game option, and as a control vs. control trump, Aetherling has to be part of the discussion, and I also believe Rakdos's Return could be a handy 1-of for us.
Khans did unsurprisingly bring us close to nothing for us except Legacy fetch lands. My Reflecting Pool and off-colored fetch-lands will be replaced by Polluted Delta for sure. It will be interesting to see how aggro and aggro/control will be affected by the better mana-base. For instance, UB Delver, UB Fairies and even Grixis tempo-builds seems feasible now and is something I will try out.
Patrick Chapin likes Pack Rat, and argues that it could also be good in Grixis colors. He also argues for playing more scry-land in modern to smooth out draws.
I can comment on the mana. You have 21 blue, 18 black and 13 red sources, which means that you are short on red. A turn 1 bolt or spray is going to be hard and a turn 3 Anger of the Gods is out of the question.
Other than that, I put question-marks on main-boarding Magma Spray and Pyroclasm. Unless your meta is filled with small creatures, they probably belong in the SB. We've had discussions regarding Think Twice before, so I am not going to say anything about that card. In the side-board, Illness in the Ranks seems a bit narrow. I personally lean towards Curse of Death's Hold, but there is also a 4 CMC symmetric enchantment that some prefer.
Finally, I previously played Mystical Teachings, but to me it seems a bit slow against faster decks - so I have avoided it.
You stay alive until you untap. Against combo, this means that you make sure that your opponent can not take off (counter magic), or have a stripped hand (hand disruption). Against aggro, it means that you have to have swept everything off the board prior to casting her.
The PW stays alive. Otherwise, you have a very expensive (5 mana) sorcery speed spell with little effect. How much would you pay for "Freeze tgt creature, gain 5 life"? Most of the time, this means playing into a board of no more than one strong creature.
Tamiyo was good for a while in Standard when mid-range was a thing. In those match-ups, she could hold down the fort against their one big creature. Modern is by far not a mid-range format, which explains why she is not good in Modern.
I think I'd rather play Dark Confidant or Young Pyromancer in lieu of expensive planes-walkers. As a control deck you either want to get in quickly for good effect (barring Spell Snare), or else be able to protect them turn 4-8. PWs in Modern are a little bit more resilient than creatures due to the deck lists out there, but there's still a decent amount of PW removal.
I browsed through the card-pool and I found Trade Routes. Has anyone tested this card? We are sometimes flooded, and especially late-game it will turn bad draws (lands) into good draws (spells). Additionally, land destruction becomes less intrusive.
I've noticed that many lists run X/4 creatures now, presumably to avoid being in bolt range. While Lightning Bolt is still awesome, has anyone considered reducing the count?
Interesting. I never considered Liliana Vess (and hence never tried her), but I'd imagine her to be quite powerful in control vs. control. Her tutor effect is quite relevant, and discard might matter at times too. Having said that, the deck I currently run is very draw-go, and she feels more like a tap-out control card. But then again, some people think that Grixis should be tap out due to the quality of sorcery spells, so what do I know..
#3 I don't know how others do against other control decks, but I hate the match up so much. Its just a grindy counter spell game, and cruel control doesn't have access to things like Lighting Helix and Colonnade, which provide a bit more punch. Two of my friends who went with me played 6 matches each as well and didn't see any control decks... apparently I got all the control matchups.
Thanks for being honest about it. I mostly play on-line and feel that our deck has plenty of answers to UW-based control. Obviously, due to variance we can't expect to win all of the games, but we should have a very good chance.
Perhaps you need to practice more control match-ups? Your comment "I hate the match up so much" indicates that you aren't comfortable playing it, so you need that practice. Also, I think you have the change the perspective from hating it, to *enjoying* it. Tell yourself that control vs. control is fun! (It is.) There's no rush, no need to be afraid of a quick game-over. It is all about mustering resources and win by having more resources in hand (and lands on the table) than your opponent, something that you gain through a gradual and slow process. Take pleasure in seeking out small advantages here and there, and in the end out-power your opponent with the accumulated advantage. One of the best advice I got was that when you sit down to play control, that you have to sit down with an attitude that you want to sit and play until time runs out, having all of the time in the world. (You still want to play reasonably fast, of course.)
It's funny how a positive attitude make you a better Magic player. It's easier to see lines of play, even when things are against you. If you are defeatist, you won't be playing towards your outs ("I won't get the card I need anyway.") You won't take the time to calculate in order to figure out what the path is for the least amount of damage. You won't even consider what may or may not be in your opponent's hand. If you reverse your thinking, I am pretty sure your matches will improve drastically.
@ Rogon: Thanks for the mana base tips.. It is rather hard to pick the right lands and the right numbers for it. 90% of the time I hardly had any issues with red sources.. unless someone franticly focussing on hating my red away.
I hope this will atleast make the 90% being not color screwed go up towards the 99%.
So, +1 blue, -3 black and +3 red, and you are at 21 blue, 15 black and 15 red, so yes - you are improving your chances of not being color-screwed quite a bit. You are still a little short on both Damnation and Sowing Salt, and still short on Anger of the Gods, while blue is definitely covered. One way to improve red and black would be to add virtual mana-sources, i.e. cheap can-trips, such as Serum Visions and Shadow of Doubt. 4 cheap can-trips count as one mana source (or you can think of it as reducing the source requirements for each of your colors by 1).
I was wondering... Enchantments can be a big issues for Grixis. We play just those colors that would rather see enchantments be removed from the whole TCG. Blood Moon, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Choke, Seismic Assault or any enchantment Boggles has to offer comes to mind. Would Kiora's Dismissal be a decent enough card to play in the SB? I always have this 'meh' feeling about putting cards in the SB with the "I might get caught off-guard" idea. It mostly is just a card to use with Teachings, but you might have to go to atleast 2 Mystical Teachings in the MB.
Another thought.. What do we feel about Silence the Believers? To me it feels decent at best. For 4 mana I rather want a boardwipe or something that makes sure a creature will die.. something like Sudden Death. For 7 mana I want it to be a game winning card.
I would love to see how how Kiora's Dismissal works out -- it could be a wonderful addition. I've typically used Annul since it also is good against affinity. I'm not sure Silence the Believers makes the cut, as even Terminate isn't played by many Grixis lists... Having said that, I played in the pre-release and cast it for 7 mana and it was quite the blow-out. But Limited is quite a different story from Modern.
On Hero's Downfall, it's a great card against any "mid-range" or slow deck. The reason it's not being used though is that most problematic decks in Modern aren't mid-range nor slow... How did the planes-walker resolve? Sounds to me that the best answer lies in counters.
First, I believe there is such a thing as Cruel-less Grixis Control. If you forego the namesake card, the mana-base can be a lot better and you can afford utility lands. For instance, if Jace 1.0 ever became legal in Modern, I think it would be tough to argue for Cruel Ultimatum. Having said that, cruel is a very good card. The first is often good enough to bring us back into the game, and the second is back-breaking. It is, however a late-game trump.
In looking for other great cards, Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine are obvious candidates. The life-gain is obviously huge. We've also seen Keranos, God of Storms, even in Legacy decks, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that it's another option for us. Of course, big daddy Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is another late-game option, and as a control vs. control trump, Aetherling has to be part of the discussion, and I also believe Rakdos's Return could be a handy 1-of for us.
Khans did unsurprisingly bring us close to nothing for us except Legacy fetch lands. My Reflecting Pool and off-colored fetch-lands will be replaced by Polluted Delta for sure. It will be interesting to see how aggro and aggro/control will be affected by the better mana-base. For instance, UB Delver, UB Fairies and even Grixis tempo-builds seems feasible now and is something I will try out.
The "Reply" button should really reference what you're replying too. Anyway, it was the count of lands and spells for Patrick Chapin's deck.
2 Pack Rat
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (27)
1 Batterskull
2 Jace Beleren
4 Cryptic Command
1 Spell Snare
3 Electrolyze
2 Terminate
3 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Damnation
Lands (27)
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Deceit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Slaughter Games
1 Vandalblast
1 Countersquall
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Sowing Salt
Thoughts?
With regards to token, twin and aggro decks, there's nothing more satisfying than Rakdos Charm, Rakdos Charm, Snapcaster Mage, Rakdos Charm. Just saying..
Other than that, I put question-marks on main-boarding Magma Spray and Pyroclasm. Unless your meta is filled with small creatures, they probably belong in the SB. We've had discussions regarding Think Twice before, so I am not going to say anything about that card. In the side-board, Illness in the Ranks seems a bit narrow. I personally lean towards Curse of Death's Hold, but there is also a 4 CMC symmetric enchantment that some prefer.
Finally, I previously played Mystical Teachings, but to me it seems a bit slow against faster decks - so I have avoided it.
I browsed through the card-pool and I found Trade Routes. Has anyone tested this card? We are sometimes flooded, and especially late-game it will turn bad draws (lands) into good draws (spells). Additionally, land destruction becomes less intrusive.
I've noticed that many lists run X/4 creatures now, presumably to avoid being in bolt range. While Lightning Bolt is still awesome, has anyone considered reducing the count?
Thanks for being honest about it. I mostly play on-line and feel that our deck has plenty of answers to UW-based control. Obviously, due to variance we can't expect to win all of the games, but we should have a very good chance.
Perhaps you need to practice more control match-ups? Your comment "I hate the match up so much" indicates that you aren't comfortable playing it, so you need that practice. Also, I think you have the change the perspective from hating it, to *enjoying* it. Tell yourself that control vs. control is fun! (It is.) There's no rush, no need to be afraid of a quick game-over. It is all about mustering resources and win by having more resources in hand (and lands on the table) than your opponent, something that you gain through a gradual and slow process. Take pleasure in seeking out small advantages here and there, and in the end out-power your opponent with the accumulated advantage. One of the best advice I got was that when you sit down to play control, that you have to sit down with an attitude that you want to sit and play until time runs out, having all of the time in the world. (You still want to play reasonably fast, of course.)
It's funny how a positive attitude make you a better Magic player. It's easier to see lines of play, even when things are against you. If you are defeatist, you won't be playing towards your outs ("I won't get the card I need anyway.") You won't take the time to calculate in order to figure out what the path is for the least amount of damage. You won't even consider what may or may not be in your opponent's hand. If you reverse your thinking, I am pretty sure your matches will improve drastically.
2 Consume the Meek
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
2 Think Twice
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dreadship Reef
4 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Damnation
1 Dispel
1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Magma Spray
1 Negate
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sowing Salt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Terminate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Threads of Disloyalty
And also:
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Consume the Meek
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
2 Think Twice
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dreadship Reef
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
1 Aetherling
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Combust
1 Counterflux
1 Deathmark
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Molten Rain
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sowing Salt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wurmcoil Engine
So, +1 blue, -3 black and +3 red, and you are at 21 blue, 15 black and 15 red, so yes - you are improving your chances of not being color-screwed quite a bit. You are still a little short on both Damnation and Sowing Salt, and still short on Anger of the Gods, while blue is definitely covered. One way to improve red and black would be to add virtual mana-sources, i.e. cheap can-trips, such as Serum Visions and Shadow of Doubt. 4 cheap can-trips count as one mana source (or you can think of it as reducing the source requirements for each of your colors by 1).
I really like Night of Souls' Betrayal, having 2 in my sideboard.
I would love to see how how Kiora's Dismissal works out -- it could be a wonderful addition. I've typically used Annul since it also is good against affinity. I'm not sure Silence the Believers makes the cut, as even Terminate isn't played by many Grixis lists... Having said that, I played in the pre-release and cast it for 7 mana and it was quite the blow-out. But Limited is quite a different story from Modern.
On Hero's Downfall, it's a great card against any "mid-range" or slow deck. The reason it's not being used though is that most problematic decks in Modern aren't mid-range nor slow... How did the planes-walker resolve? Sounds to me that the best answer lies in counters.