yea probably true, altho idk maybe if it had enough strings attached! Like the old "Activate this ability once per turn" clause . Maybe also lose 2 life or something.
The card is indeed very interesting, but I don't like the fact that you need to discard it for it be really interesting.
Yeah, I just am frustrated with the few "modern playable" discard outlets that we have access to atm. Seems like just loothouse and baby jace. Loothouse is kinda expensive (ideally a 0 mana outlet is preferable for maximizing zombies) and baby jace is fine, it just idk it kinda sucks for decks with a lot of counterspells in them since you cant use babyjace to flash those back effectively.
Honestly I'm picturing a Dreadship Reef control deck (along with a loothouse) and with 1-3 of this card in it as a finisher.
I'm Really just hoping that they print better discard outlets, like on a land or something. Something like tap: add (1) colorless mana, and a second ability (0):discard a card, pay 1 life. Or just (0):discard a card. Unsure if they need the life loss for balancing but yeah (they probably do? Maybe discard a card at random, lol :)), the deck definitely wants something like that very badly. Here's to hoping.
Holy crap guys this card is REAL...
Imagine someone plussing a liliana on you when you have like 5-6 mana up, just wow.. the value wtf. This is such a good lategame card too if you can trigger the madness, reminds me of entreat the angels. The lifegain is the thing that Makes this card at all viable though, sucks sooo much taht they come into play tapped(at least the lifegain helps offset this alittle if you're being pressured a lot) but wow this is an Excellent lategame card and still decent in the midgame for sure. I'm Very excited for this thing, tricky part is triggering madness without much mana investment, currently seems like loothouse is the best way to have that function. (jace as well, unfortunately because I don't really like the 2 mana jace! Hopfully the come out with some better madness enablers forthcoming soon!)
Since you're only wanting to go madness mode on this card in the lategame, 1 or 2 loothouses might be fine to run since by the lategame you are likely to run into one of those lands by that point.
This thing is like a nightmare for jund, makes them think twice about using lilianas and thoughtseizes.
lol chalupa omg i remember suggesting a commandeer mystical teachings strategy against tron!!! very glad to see someone actually pulled it off to such success lol !
One idea I also had, although it seems not that great tbh but hey just an idea to throw out there, was parallectric feedback to teachings for to get a later game burn plan vs tron. Idk how good that is but yeah funny at least .
Well since its a copy, you now control the copy so you can choose your opponent as the target (since the rebuttal states you can change the targets). So i think it wouldn't negate the rebuttal (im fairly sure anyway, but i guess i could be wrong). If the spell only let you "change" the targets, and not gain control of the spell through copying it, then yeah you cant change the target to your opponent because, since they control the spell, you are the only legal target.
I saw someone post their thoughts on sideboarding for the CoCo in their article on channel fireball. He sided into some dispels and vendilion cliques and he explained his thoughts:
"The Vendilion Clique + Dispel package may look a bit weird, but Collected Company is their best card by such a substantial margin that it is important to have a really efficient answer to it. [...] Vendilion Clique is pretty good as a flying win condition, but it also prevents them from building up a hand of lots of Collected Companies/Witnesses to overload your counterspells. Clique on end step (with Dispel or Deprive up) will force them to either go for it or lose a great card, and let you use your counterspell mana efficiently and on your terms."
I thought this was interesting, I could definitely see keeping these cards in if you have some weak cards to cut especially in that matchup :).
I think relic, night of souls' betrayal, anger of the gods, and even izzet staticaster are all good against CoCo. Mostly because they rely on eternal witness for card advantage mostly so if you can suppress their gy with a relic of progenitus or make their witness instantly die when it comes into play with something like izzet staticaster or night of souls' betrayal then you can fight their card advantage quite a bit with those things. anger also just helps sweet away everything and not persist.
when they cast CoCo having the -1 toughness effects can make some of their targets dead as they come into play (it also makes your electrolyzes at their most powerful, and trust me when electrolyze is at its most powerful it can be utterly disgusting), either that or ineffectual since they are small creatures to start, and -1 on their power can be drastic as well. (especially coupled with a Jace +1 effect). Also in my experience they can't really get a qasali pridemage to kill the NoSB that reliably because the moment NoSB comes down it kills a load of mana creatures and therefore it drastically reduces their ability to chord for the pridemage so they have to naturally hit it off their deck or with the CoCo, those odds aren't that great so it really slows them down as well which is why I like it so much. So even if they manage to do that, they've traded their pridemage away for the NoSB, but the damage has already been done, and then traded with a card as well.
the only issue for me i had with 2 damage discard was that a lot of times when those are the modes I could use most profitably they seemed very weak. I would have to wait a lot of turns with this card in my hand to get anything relevant with the discard making it a late game card, the 2 damage is best when dealing with a threat unless it kills the opponent which is rare, the issue with this is that the threats that have 2 toughness are either rare or early game creatures.
So if you think about that for a moment theres a problem. You have this spell that if you don't have a creature in your yard (not uncommon in low creature decks) or you don't have an opponent playing artifacts (also not that uncommon) and lets say they play an early 2 toughness threat you are going to want to fire off that kolaghan command on it and make them discard a card, but if its early in the game its very likely all your going to get is a land out of their hand. that feels pretty poop when this scenario plays out because you also want to shoot the creature thats beating you up in the early game. Thats why I just like 1 in a list that has very low creature count.
Funny you guys should mention teachings, I recently put together a teachings list for fun :). It honestly didn't seem bad, I dug a little deep with some cards ;). For instance I added burst lightning replacing 1 lightning bolt for liliana since with the kicker u can teachings for it and kill lili the turn she comes down, not to mention sometimes your opponent is at 4 life =p. I also featured a Teferi lock with a teferi + cavern of souls in the sideboard for fun since getting teferi with teachings is more reliable in this deck than others that play teferi.(This comes in vs. twin and control/counterheavy decks). Finally you can teachings for commandeer against tron if you know you have 2 other blue spells in hand at the time :), this lets you just play 1 single commandeer vs them (not clunking up your hand with them when not needed). I fit it in in place of a sowing salt.
^ This is actually a really fun list to play lol, Really has a lot of nice toolpieces, wanted to fit a silumgar command in the sideboard but the burst lightning kinda solved my lili problem and the manabase is kind of ready for blood moon i think so thats not the biggest concern for this deck.
Sidenote in addition to adding things like anger to sideboard for strengthening the CoCo matchup, I really think night of souls' betrayal is an excellent sideboard card that could help in that matchup too, its been gaining a little popularity in jund as a strong sideboard card.
I also agree with what someone above posted, electrolyze is still really really good, I don't mind like 1 kolaghan command mainboard but like more than that feels a bit clunky in a list that has not that many creatures in it anyway. It seems more copies suit creature heavier decks more stronger.
a reason to run less is because in counterfights they are clunky as all heck. If you have like 2-3 in hand you run a high risk of being bottlenecked on mana on an important fight, its why people sometimes go all the way up to 2 dispel from sideboard. Dispel is incredibly efficient against an opponent who has a ton of cryptics. If thats not a concern you can max out on cryptics.
Yeah, I just am frustrated with the few "modern playable" discard outlets that we have access to atm. Seems like just loothouse and baby jace. Loothouse is kinda expensive (ideally a 0 mana outlet is preferable for maximizing zombies) and baby jace is fine, it just idk it kinda sucks for decks with a lot of counterspells in them since you cant use babyjace to flash those back effectively.
Honestly I'm picturing a Dreadship Reef control deck (along with a loothouse) and with 1-3 of this card in it as a finisher.
I'm Really just hoping that they print better discard outlets, like on a land or something. Something like tap: add (1) colorless mana, and a second ability (0):discard a card, pay 1 life. Or just (0):discard a card. Unsure if they need the life loss for balancing but yeah (they probably do? Maybe discard a card at random, lol :)), the deck definitely wants something like that very badly. Here's to hoping.
Imagine someone plussing a liliana on you when you have like 5-6 mana up, just wow.. the value wtf. This is such a good lategame card too if you can trigger the madness, reminds me of entreat the angels. The lifegain is the thing that Makes this card at all viable though, sucks sooo much taht they come into play tapped(at least the lifegain helps offset this alittle if you're being pressured a lot) but wow this is an Excellent lategame card and still decent in the midgame for sure. I'm Very excited for this thing, tricky part is triggering madness without much mana investment, currently seems like loothouse is the best way to have that function. (jace as well, unfortunately because I don't really like the 2 mana jace! Hopfully the come out with some better madness enablers forthcoming soon!)
Since you're only wanting to go madness mode on this card in the lategame, 1 or 2 loothouses might be fine to run since by the lategame you are likely to run into one of those lands by that point.
This thing is like a nightmare for jund, makes them think twice about using lilianas and thoughtseizes.
One idea I also had, although it seems not that great tbh but hey just an idea to throw out there, was parallectric feedback to teachings for to get a later game burn plan vs tron. Idk how good that is but yeah funny at least .
"The Vendilion Clique + Dispel package may look a bit weird, but Collected Company is their best card by such a substantial margin that it is important to have a really efficient answer to it. [...] Vendilion Clique is pretty good as a flying win condition, but it also prevents them from building up a hand of lots of Collected Companies/Witnesses to overload your counterspells. Clique on end step (with Dispel or Deprive up) will force them to either go for it or lose a great card, and let you use your counterspell mana efficiently and on your terms."
I thought this was interesting, I could definitely see keeping these cards in if you have some weak cards to cut especially in that matchup :).
when they cast CoCo having the -1 toughness effects can make some of their targets dead as they come into play (it also makes your electrolyzes at their most powerful, and trust me when electrolyze is at its most powerful it can be utterly disgusting), either that or ineffectual since they are small creatures to start, and -1 on their power can be drastic as well. (especially coupled with a Jace +1 effect). Also in my experience they can't really get a qasali pridemage to kill the NoSB that reliably because the moment NoSB comes down it kills a load of mana creatures and therefore it drastically reduces their ability to chord for the pridemage so they have to naturally hit it off their deck or with the CoCo, those odds aren't that great so it really slows them down as well which is why I like it so much. So even if they manage to do that, they've traded their pridemage away for the NoSB, but the damage has already been done, and then traded with a card as well.
So if you think about that for a moment theres a problem. You have this spell that if you don't have a creature in your yard (not uncommon in low creature decks) or you don't have an opponent playing artifacts (also not that uncommon) and lets say they play an early 2 toughness threat you are going to want to fire off that kolaghan command on it and make them discard a card, but if its early in the game its very likely all your going to get is a land out of their hand. that feels pretty poop when this scenario plays out because you also want to shoot the creature thats beating you up in the early game. Thats why I just like 1 in a list that has very low creature count.
4 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Cryptic Command
1 Damnation
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Logic Knot
1 Mountain
1 Murderous Cut
4 Polluted Delta
2 Remand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Snare
2 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Terminate
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Watery Grave
2 Mana Leak
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Go for the Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Suffer the Past
1 Burst Lightning
1 Cruel ultimatum
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Shattering Spree
2 Fulminator Mage
1 commandeer
1 Negate
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Far // Away
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Sowing Salt
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
^ This is actually a really fun list to play lol, Really has a lot of nice toolpieces, wanted to fit a silumgar command in the sideboard but the burst lightning kinda solved my lili problem and the manabase is kind of ready for blood moon i think so thats not the biggest concern for this deck.
Sidenote in addition to adding things like anger to sideboard for strengthening the CoCo matchup, I really think night of souls' betrayal is an excellent sideboard card that could help in that matchup too, its been gaining a little popularity in jund as a strong sideboard card.
I also agree with what someone above posted, electrolyze is still really really good, I don't mind like 1 kolaghan command mainboard but like more than that feels a bit clunky in a list that has not that many creatures in it anyway. It seems more copies suit creature heavier decks more stronger.