Yeah, it definitely depends on the build. These days, I generally start control brews with 25-26 depending on what the curve and avg CMC starts at, but this one seemed more mana hungry than usual, so I tacked one on. I will likely end up cutting it at some point as there was more than a few games yesterday where I flooded out, even with the massive # of cards I was seeing. We'll see.
I most just play this deck for fun - doing a card-by-card comparison and a general analysis of the metagame, it's likely that UWR is just better than Grixis for now. However, it's not nearly as fun to cast a Sphinx's Revelation!
Obviously, but with 2 Terminates, a Tribute (this is no longer in my list though), and 2 more Damnations, I'd rather have the speed and flexibility of a cheaper sweeper. The creature that you'd most commonly need Damnation for is Goyf, and we have more outs to that card than is usual in Modern (2-3 Spell Snares in addition to removal).
Once this deck hits 4-6 mana, things are normally pretty grave for the other side. Cryptic Commands, Damnations, and Snapcaster Mage start kicking in, and stabilizing gets a lot easier. I found myself wanting more interaction early.
27 might be one too many, but it's not as crazy as you guys might think. The Extended version of this deck had 27 lands, and it had arguably more card draw/cantripping than we had. Even with 27 lands I found myself getting stuck on 5 a few times. If you're playing 25 you're insane, but 26 is defensible in my opinion.
I've made a few other small changes to the list as well. I cut a Damnation for a Pyroclasm, as 'clasm is basically just a Wrath in this format anyway. I also cut an Augur and the Tribute for a Spell Snare and an Izzet Charm. I hate not having early answers to things like Deathrite Shaman, Bob, and Liliana, and these things up the answer count.
Not sure this is the right forum for a build like this, but we'll roll with it. What's your plan for casting Cruel Ultimatum in a 20 land deck? Realistically, you probably need 26, maybe 27, with ways to draw extra cards to ensure you're hitting all of your land drops. Some decks in the forum are even playing stuff like Signets for more mana.
I don't like cutting remand because it lets you keep some 2 land hands. Mulliganing against decks that play discard is not very fun. Plus jund has a very greedy mana base, so you can remand their spell and they might not be able to re-cast it.
The more I think about it, the more I don't think consume the meek should be in the deck (or the sideboard). The way most games play out you kill all their stuff, so you won't get any insane blow outs with the 5 mana instant speed wrath. The other esper decks could play consume the meek because they play rest for the weary to buy time, and they play cheaper wraths, so they can set up multiple blow outs with each wrath. Plus Wafo's deck can have a hard time getting double black on turn 5. However the counter argument is that consume the meek can save you from a lot of bad situations and you can tutor for it if needed. If you really want a wrath I think supreme verdict is better. Or if you really want to kill man lands play another terminate instead.
Slay is pretty sweet, but it seems like the sideboard slots are really tight. I think there needs to be 1 darkblast in the board. Shadow of doubt is another consideration for the board, it cantrips!!! Lightning helix and rest for the weary are other considerations to think about.
Maybe on the play I'd consider keeping Remand in, but on the draw I'd like to SB some out. It's too easy to fall behind to a 3 drop on turn 2, and then Remand is really awful. And for as greedy as Jund can be, they also have a lot of cheap spells or guys that can easily be replayed, like Goyf or Bob. I'm not saying it's horrible, just that it seems like one of the poorer cards in the match up along with Izzet Charm. Maybe Izzet Charm is just worse though. I haven't gotten enough testing in.
Consume the Meek has been fine, but not amazing. Not sure I'd want to cut it though. It's reasonable against Jund, only not hitting BBE, and it's also one of the decks only outs to Goyf. It's also a good out to Storm Tokens, most Melira Pod dorks, everything in Soul Sisters, Pestermites/Exarchs and such. Definitely good enough to keep in, but I'm never super excited about it either.
I haven't played vs jund yet, so I don't know how the games get played out. I don't know if snapcaster is bad since they might board in rakdos charms or just sit back on their deathrite. Snapcaster is an answer to bloodbraid, so I don't know if you should cut him. I don't know if consume the meek will get insane value, i'm guessing it won't since the games should be really grindy.
But yeah I could see boarding in the purge, 2 timelys, and the tec edge/spreading seas. Maybe board in counter flux as a counter to BBE?
I could see cutting 1-3 izzet charms since they are terrible top decks in this attrition war. I could see cutting consume the meek since it's a slow card that might not get much value. If you board in counterflux i could see cutting snapcasters. Can you cut 1 cryptic and 1 teachings since they're slow?
Yeah I'm still not sure - I think Izzet Charm and Remand are probably the worst cards in the deck against Jund. Snapcaster mage is insane, but Counterflux is probably way too slow and narrow. A lot of this is build dependent as well. Consume the Meek is probably quite good if they're on Lingering Souls.
My build has 4 Izzet Charm and 3 Snapcasters. I could see going something like this:
But mostly because I just want to test out Supreme Verdict. It's a good way to mitigate the card advantage from BBE and Lingering Souls, and it just seems reasonable against Midrange decks in general, because they don't present a huge clock. I'm going to try this out next time I play against Jund and see what happens. I think I have a Spreading Seas in my SB instead, but whatever. I've been meaning to try out a singleton Slay in my SB as well. Jund basically can't beat you if you survive into the late game and reach large amounts of mana. 7 cats or 7 life/cards is too much for nearly any fair deck to handle, so whatever your SB plan is, is should be with that obvious end goal in mind.
This deck is nontrivial to play - this is what I've learned thus far. I 3-1'd a DE, and I thought I was getting there. Then I didn't do so hot in either of today's, thought about giving up the deck. Then I scored fairly well in a few 8-mans in a row, and I think I'm back.
Need to test more, need to watch more Wafo replays...
With regards to SBing, I'm generally pretty puzzled as well. For instance, against Jund I'd be fairly interested in bringing in the 2 Timely Reinforcements, the Purge, and the Tec Edge (I don't think this card is in my SB anymore, but insert equivalent card).
What do you cut? My gut tells me you can never cut the cards you mention - it's way too easy to fall behind a deck like Jund if you don't have any early action, especially if you don't have an answer to the T1 Deathrite Shaman T2 Liliana plan, or even a T2 Confidant. I have been cutting two Izzet Charms (I have 4 and 3 Snapcasters) and 2 Remands, but I have no idea if that's right.
I kinda want a 3rd Timely as well. The card has overperformed for me so far. There's a lot of garbage red decks on MODO, and even in the UWR Delver and Jund matchup (which is probably the most grindy matchup you can think of, both decks generate a lot of card advantage and go toe-to-toe for quite a while) it's insane.
I thought extirpate stops people from casting spells? So they can't cast their exarch out of their hand, you get to remove it. And obviously it can't be countered, which matters in that match up. Also spell snare sucks vs twin.
Spell Snare is definitely garbage against Twin, agreed, but no cards are good in all matchups. Snare is basically good against everything but Twin, and probably Pod.
I was referring specifically to Surgical Extraction - Extirpate is obviously better against Twin than Extraction is for many reasons, Dispel and Remand being other reasons.
I hate watching that match again - fairly confident I win G3 there if I do basically anything but what I did. I died with a Marsh Flats in my hand. Could have played that and fetched up a Plains. Leaving me at 1, but with the option of Teachings --> Cryptic. I said a lot of horrific, unrepeatable things when I lost to runner runner Forked Bolts. I did enjoy the entire stream not knowing what I was on for a long time.
Maybe if you play Extirpate, it's serviceable vs. Twin, however, I'd feel very bad if I extracted an Exarch, and they flashed another in. Also, one of the problems in general is just killing an Exarch! This deck is surprisingly soft to that guy, which is one of the reasons I think the deck has a small amount of trouble vs. Twin in general.
Spell Snare might not be needed, but it might improve the list!
I'd bring it in the dark vs jund even if i didn't see liliana. It answers bob just fine, and all the other big creatures they might have huntmaster, olivia, thundermaw hellkite. And as a last resort it hits deathrite and bloodbraid.
It's funny you say that, as path is pretty bad with your turn 1 mana dork situation. There's also burst lightning and flame slash as other options. I could see playing 1 path in the deck since it has snapcasters and teachings.
Yeah I wish I paid more attention to those situations when he did it. I've played the straight esper teachings deck probably used it as a mind rot 1/10 of the time. You have to be ahead on the board and with cards in hand. I think his deck allows you to use the discard mode more often because he has 4 snapcasters and all of his cards cantrip. The straight esper teaching's deck had more one for ones, and only 2 snapcasters. So the straight esper deck would usually have less cards in hand.
I haven't played the deck much yet since I just built it. Still short a clique, need to sell some cards. How many sowing salts would you play? Would you put sowing salt in vs other decks? I think this deck has enough early interaction vs tron to not have to play it. I'm guessing that's why Wafo Tapa didn't add it. He did 2-0 his tron opponent (though that opponent wasn't very good).
Path is horrendous in that situation, but I wanted it more as an out to huge guys late game, as Terminate + Dismember and whatever Snapcasters I have hasn't been in enough in a few games (though they were great in testing tonight). With all that said though, Dismember was better for me tonight. I played in my first Daily and 3-1'd, with wins against Scapeshift, Kiki-Pod, and GW Hate Bears (I managed to fight through 2 Thorns in an epic game). My loss came to Soul Sisters - I lost G1 to T1 Ascedant T2 Martyr of Sands putting him over 30 life, won a truly epic G2 which involved me digging through 37 cards of my deck to find any one of my Wraths, Teachings, or Snapcasters, and a mislick G3 cost me the match.
Wafo-Tapa also played in the DE and 3-1'd, so we'll get to see an updated list.
Some thoughts after thinking about my games and watching replays:
1. Ghost Quarter over Tectonic Edge is probably better, but worth testing, as Tec Edge is better against Jund. GQ is better against nearly every other deck though, Infect and Tron being the most relevant. EDIT - I might just want 2 Spreading Seas instead, cut the land in the SB.
2. Not sure I actually even want Path anymore (Dismember, Terminate and Electrolyze treated me a bit better today), but it's worth testing.
3. I still like Surgical Extraction a lot vs. all of the combo decks in the format except Splinter Twin, which it's mostly garbage against. That might be this decks toughest combo matchup.
4. Marsh Flats instead of Arid Mesa, or at least a 2/2 split. Really want that Watery Grave, rarely want the Blood Crypt.
5. Electrolyze was the nut for me tonight. In one game I blew up two Pilgrims, then two turns later Snapcaster'd it back to kill two Mindcensors. That was a beating.
6. I want Stony Silence in the board - it's actually very broad, being reasonable against Tron, Affinity, Pod, and Eggs.
7. Not sure Sowing Salt is needed, as Ghost Quarter is probably broader and more to the point. I don't care that I'm giving Tron or Infect a forest.
8. I kind of want a Spell Snare in the main. I like that it's a little bit of on-the-draw insurance, and I think it's actually super well positioned right now. Sakura Tribe Elders and Farseeks, Remand, Mana Leak, Rituals, Pyromancer's Ascension, Sylvan Scrying, Goyf, Bob, Snapcaster, all of Affinity's good cards, and so forth. I will likely cut a Snapcaster for it and see what happens.
I still haven't totally decided on SB'ing in some of the matchups. Stuff like Storm and Tron is fairly obvious, since half your cards suck terribly, and you haul in like 9 cards from your board. In these matchups you're taking out all of the removal that's not relevant and bringing in the Cliques, Thoughtseizes, Extirpate/Extraction, and the two Counterfluxes.
In the Jund matchup I've been added Celestial Purge if they're playing Liliana and the two Timely Reinforcements. I'm not sure if you need the Thoughtseizes or the Verdicts here.
I've been taking out the Izzet Charms in a lot of mana dork matchups on the draw, as I've been embarrassed too many times by T1 Heirarch/Deathrite Shaman and then T3 Absurd card I wish I had an answer for, be it Birthing Pod, Liliana, or even Kitchen Finks for which this deck has to spend two cards.
Speaking of that, I know giving people the land sucks, but I really find myself wanting a Path to Exile in this deck. I think I'd cut an Electrolyze or a Dismember for it, not sure.
With regards to the Tweet, I thought I saw it retweeted multiple times from different people, so I assumed more than one person was testing it unsuccessfully. Anyway, my real point was that watching the replays helped me a lot with respect to interesting lines of play I wouldn't have thought of myself. For instance, I probably didn't use the Mind Rot mode of Esper Charm as much as I should have been, especially on people's draw steps, and even running out Snapcaster's and flashing back Bolts to the face to put a clock on decks were I wouldn't expect this deck to want to be the beatdown.
I was thinking about the Tec Edge vs. Ghost Quarter thing as well. Really not sure what should happen here. I mean, if it's really for the Tron matchup, I'd rather just have a Sowing Salt and remember to fetch up my Steam Vents first. I'm not sure if I should be cutting something like a Darkslick Shores or the draw vs. Jund and bringing this thing in or what. No idea.
I have tested the Wafo-Tapa list in a bunch of games now, and I really like it. Electrolyze has been somewhat clunky for me, but I haven't seen much of the decks that you'd actually want the card for, so I'm leaving it for now.
I have heard on Twitter or read here some people have problems with the list, and I think it's perhaps because the players didn't watch the replays. I don't know why, but having seen the replays opened my eyes!
FYI, Counterflux has been really good for me. I've played a lot of combo decks, and it's good against all of them. Against Storm it's a Cancel or a costly Mindbreak Trap (The 1UUR Overload has been surprising easily to work up, I find that most games boil down to me smacking them with a Snapcaster or two, and I just get to sit back and wait for them to try to go off with multiple answer and 7+ mana ready), against Splinter Twin it hits Kiki-Jiki or Splinter Twin without Dispel screwing everything up, and against Scapeshift it gets their Scapeshift without getting Remanded or whatever. It's been really good.
I added a second Clique because I had it, I felt as though it was more relevant than the Tec Edge in most cases. There are a lot of combo decks on MODO.
Someone made it! I don't totally get the large # of Scars Duals in a Cruel Ultimatum deck, but the list looks pretty good to me.
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I most just play this deck for fun - doing a card-by-card comparison and a general analysis of the metagame, it's likely that UWR is just better than Grixis for now. However, it's not nearly as fun to cast a Sphinx's Revelation!
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Once this deck hits 4-6 mana, things are normally pretty grave for the other side. Cryptic Commands, Damnations, and Snapcaster Mage start kicking in, and stabilizing gets a lot easier. I found myself wanting more interaction early.
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I've made a few other small changes to the list as well. I cut a Damnation for a Pyroclasm, as 'clasm is basically just a Wrath in this format anyway. I also cut an Augur and the Tribute for a Spell Snare and an Izzet Charm. I hate not having early answers to things like Deathrite Shaman, Bob, and Liliana, and these things up the answer count.
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4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Graven Cairns
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Reflecting Pool
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Augur of Bolas
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (27)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
2 Terminate
1 Tribute to Hunger
3 Damnation
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
2 Thoughtflare
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Batterskull
2 Counterflux
2 Slaughter Games
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Spellskite
2 Pyroclasm
4 Spreading Seas
1 Rakdos Charm
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Maybe on the play I'd consider keeping Remand in, but on the draw I'd like to SB some out. It's too easy to fall behind to a 3 drop on turn 2, and then Remand is really awful. And for as greedy as Jund can be, they also have a lot of cheap spells or guys that can easily be replayed, like Goyf or Bob. I'm not saying it's horrible, just that it seems like one of the poorer cards in the match up along with Izzet Charm. Maybe Izzet Charm is just worse though. I haven't gotten enough testing in.
Consume the Meek has been fine, but not amazing. Not sure I'd want to cut it though. It's reasonable against Jund, only not hitting BBE, and it's also one of the decks only outs to Goyf. It's also a good out to Storm Tokens, most Melira Pod dorks, everything in Soul Sisters, Pestermites/Exarchs and such. Definitely good enough to keep in, but I'm never super excited about it either.
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Yeah I'm still not sure - I think Izzet Charm and Remand are probably the worst cards in the deck against Jund. Snapcaster mage is insane, but Counterflux is probably way too slow and narrow. A lot of this is build dependent as well. Consume the Meek is probably quite good if they're on Lingering Souls.
My build has 4 Izzet Charm and 3 Snapcasters. I could see going something like this:
-2 Izzet Charm
-2 Remand
-1 Consume the Meek
-1 Steam Vents
+2 Timely
+1 Celestial Purge
+2 Surpreme Verdict
+1 Tectonic Edge
But mostly because I just want to test out Supreme Verdict. It's a good way to mitigate the card advantage from BBE and Lingering Souls, and it just seems reasonable against Midrange decks in general, because they don't present a huge clock. I'm going to try this out next time I play against Jund and see what happens. I think I have a Spreading Seas in my SB instead, but whatever. I've been meaning to try out a singleton Slay in my SB as well. Jund basically can't beat you if you survive into the late game and reach large amounts of mana. 7 cats or 7 life/cards is too much for nearly any fair deck to handle, so whatever your SB plan is, is should be with that obvious end goal in mind.
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Need to test more, need to watch more Wafo replays...
With regards to SBing, I'm generally pretty puzzled as well. For instance, against Jund I'd be fairly interested in bringing in the 2 Timely Reinforcements, the Purge, and the Tec Edge (I don't think this card is in my SB anymore, but insert equivalent card).
What do you cut? My gut tells me you can never cut the cards you mention - it's way too easy to fall behind a deck like Jund if you don't have any early action, especially if you don't have an answer to the T1 Deathrite Shaman T2 Liliana plan, or even a T2 Confidant. I have been cutting two Izzet Charms (I have 4 and 3 Snapcasters) and 2 Remands, but I have no idea if that's right.
I kinda want a 3rd Timely as well. The card has overperformed for me so far. There's a lot of garbage red decks on MODO, and even in the UWR Delver and Jund matchup (which is probably the most grindy matchup you can think of, both decks generate a lot of card advantage and go toe-to-toe for quite a while) it's insane.
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Spell Snare is definitely garbage against Twin, agreed, but no cards are good in all matchups. Snare is basically good against everything but Twin, and probably Pod.
I was referring specifically to Surgical Extraction - Extirpate is obviously better against Twin than Extraction is for many reasons, Dispel and Remand being other reasons.
I hate watching that match again - fairly confident I win G3 there if I do basically anything but what I did. I died with a Marsh Flats in my hand. Could have played that and fetched up a Plains. Leaving me at 1, but with the option of Teachings --> Cryptic. I said a lot of horrific, unrepeatable things when I lost to runner runner Forked Bolts. I did enjoy the entire stream not knowing what I was on for a long time.
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Spell Snare might not be needed, but it might improve the list!
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Path is horrendous in that situation, but I wanted it more as an out to huge guys late game, as Terminate + Dismember and whatever Snapcasters I have hasn't been in enough in a few games (though they were great in testing tonight). With all that said though, Dismember was better for me tonight. I played in my first Daily and 3-1'd, with wins against Scapeshift, Kiki-Pod, and GW Hate Bears (I managed to fight through 2 Thorns in an epic game). My loss came to Soul Sisters - I lost G1 to T1 Ascedant T2 Martyr of Sands putting him over 30 life, won a truly epic G2 which involved me digging through 37 cards of my deck to find any one of my Wraths, Teachings, or Snapcasters, and a mislick G3 cost me the match.
Wafo-Tapa also played in the DE and 3-1'd, so we'll get to see an updated list.
Some thoughts after thinking about my games and watching replays:
1. Ghost Quarter over Tectonic Edge is probably better, but worth testing, as Tec Edge is better against Jund. GQ is better against nearly every other deck though, Infect and Tron being the most relevant. EDIT - I might just want 2 Spreading Seas instead, cut the land in the SB.
2. Not sure I actually even want Path anymore (Dismember, Terminate and Electrolyze treated me a bit better today), but it's worth testing.
3. I still like Surgical Extraction a lot vs. all of the combo decks in the format except Splinter Twin, which it's mostly garbage against. That might be this decks toughest combo matchup.
4. Marsh Flats instead of Arid Mesa, or at least a 2/2 split. Really want that Watery Grave, rarely want the Blood Crypt.
5. Electrolyze was the nut for me tonight. In one game I blew up two Pilgrims, then two turns later Snapcaster'd it back to kill two Mindcensors. That was a beating.
6. I want Stony Silence in the board - it's actually very broad, being reasonable against Tron, Affinity, Pod, and Eggs.
7. Not sure Sowing Salt is needed, as Ghost Quarter is probably broader and more to the point. I don't care that I'm giving Tron or Infect a forest.
8. I kind of want a Spell Snare in the main. I like that it's a little bit of on-the-draw insurance, and I think it's actually super well positioned right now. Sakura Tribe Elders and Farseeks, Remand, Mana Leak, Rituals, Pyromancer's Ascension, Sylvan Scrying, Goyf, Bob, Snapcaster, all of Affinity's good cards, and so forth. I will likely cut a Snapcaster for it and see what happens.
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In the Jund matchup I've been added Celestial Purge if they're playing Liliana and the two Timely Reinforcements. I'm not sure if you need the Thoughtseizes or the Verdicts here.
I've been taking out the Izzet Charms in a lot of mana dork matchups on the draw, as I've been embarrassed too many times by T1 Heirarch/Deathrite Shaman and then T3 Absurd card I wish I had an answer for, be it Birthing Pod, Liliana, or even Kitchen Finks for which this deck has to spend two cards.
Speaking of that, I know giving people the land sucks, but I really find myself wanting a Path to Exile in this deck. I think I'd cut an Electrolyze or a Dismember for it, not sure.
With regards to the Tweet, I thought I saw it retweeted multiple times from different people, so I assumed more than one person was testing it unsuccessfully. Anyway, my real point was that watching the replays helped me a lot with respect to interesting lines of play I wouldn't have thought of myself. For instance, I probably didn't use the Mind Rot mode of Esper Charm as much as I should have been, especially on people's draw steps, and even running out Snapcaster's and flashing back Bolts to the face to put a clock on decks were I wouldn't expect this deck to want to be the beatdown.
I was thinking about the Tec Edge vs. Ghost Quarter thing as well. Really not sure what should happen here. I mean, if it's really for the Tron matchup, I'd rather just have a Sowing Salt and remember to fetch up my Steam Vents first. I'm not sure if I should be cutting something like a Darkslick Shores or the draw vs. Jund and bringing this thing in or what. No idea.
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I have heard on Twitter or read here some people have problems with the list, and I think it's perhaps because the players didn't watch the replays. I don't know why, but having seen the replays opened my eyes!
FYI, Counterflux has been really good for me. I've played a lot of combo decks, and it's good against all of them. Against Storm it's a Cancel or a costly Mindbreak Trap (The 1UUR Overload has been surprising easily to work up, I find that most games boil down to me smacking them with a Snapcaster or two, and I just get to sit back and wait for them to try to go off with multiple answer and 7+ mana ready), against Splinter Twin it hits Kiki-Jiki or Splinter Twin without Dispel screwing everything up, and against Scapeshift it gets their Scapeshift without getting Remanded or whatever. It's been really good.
I added a second Clique because I had it, I felt as though it was more relevant than the Tec Edge in most cases. There are a lot of combo decks on MODO.
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Solved it. I was close! After testing, I was going to suggest cutting a Reflecting Pool. So many cards cycle that 27 lands is too many.
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