Tasigur, the Golden Fang has been awesome for me so far, I think every deck should be running at least 1. It helps us to stabilize, add pressure, and get a ton of value through his ability over time. I have also been trying out 1 Peer Through Depths and I love it every time I see it. Being able to dig for a timely Cruel Ultimatum, Damnation or counterspell is just what this deck wants.
Hi all, I was looking around and came upon shaun mclarens modern UWR list and noticed he cut sphinx rev entirely, and seems to have replaced it with just dig through times, pretty interesting I still don't know if we would want to do the equivalent in shaving ultimatum for dig (especially since Ultimatum is my favorite card! ). Just thought i'd share that news. For those interested if u were to go that route the manabase would get much smoother (although imo its def. manageable atm, still something though).
Also I've been playing more and more with the Forbidden Alchemy and after testing more it just seemed really poor to have so many digs in hand with not enough delve fuel so I upped the count of Fa's to 3 and that felt a lot better than just playing with 2. Mana leak is such an annoying card though I kept getting punished because in the lategame it would just be such a dead card... it just feels like mana curves in modern have gotten a lot smaller thanks to things like treasure cruise so in the later parts of the game if they have a dangerous 1-3 mana card it just feels like we cant counter it, same thing with treasure cruise it is so hard to counter that 1 mana spell with mana leak... (dont even get me started with how bad mana leak is vs ramp decks..)
I've had to resort to playing a single copy of Deprive (always despised this card because it just teases you for wanting to play counterspell ) anyway this card has actually been such a good card in my experience. I would recommend others give it a shot I wouldn't play that many but I think this card definitely should be considered because to me it has synergy with dig through time decks. In standard U/B control for instance you just want to dig into hard counter dissolve and hard removal hero's downfall in the later parts of the game, we do have cryptics but these are much more expensive to cast than terminates (which are already a bit expensive compared to path to exile) and most decks only run 3 so its not as reliable to grab with dig. This is why i like deprive in a dig control deck because it lets you dig into a hard counter when your mana is constrained ( in a pinch ). Just sayin' every single time i saw this card it was like seeing a tank of ice cold water after 40 years of dehydration in a desert.
Deprive has always intrigued me but I'm not really sold on it. Early game it seems like it really hinders you, and late game you're in a position where you could afford to cast Counterflux or Dissolve instead.
I started testing X2 Forbidden Alchemy and X3 Dig Through Time and so far it's worked out well. Alchemy is super sweet. Those 2 cards + Snapcaster Mage create a lot of value together. I've also been running X1 Izzet Charm, it's very flexible and also fuels Dig.
vs combo they could have the combo in their hand and then a few extra cards, and then just pitch the useless ones to ur sceptre and proceed to combo off, also sceptre taps u low, making countermagic harder to hold up. In that matchup thoughtseize seems better because it's only 1 mana, can be flashbacked with snapcaster if necessary, and takes the combo piece that matters. vs control decks it seems better. you are stripping their hand for sure and thats pretty good, but creating your own card advantage can be comparable since the first few times they get to choose what to discard. Have you tried out Teferi vs. control? that seems more threatening. Teferi's power level can be tricky to see at first but he does a lot more things than he might seem to at first. I think i'd prefer running that in the sideboard or thoughtseize if you're looking for a card that is good vs both those decks. Also Vendilion clique is amazing for those needs as well since it can take an important piece and add an evasive clock, the clock aspect not so good against control but the first aspect makes up for it since you get a lot of information from their hand.
I like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir a lot and I have tested him. Maybe I've just been getting unlucky though because he's been pretty underwhelming for me thus far. Most of the time they just let him resolve and then Path to Exile him right away. Maybe I'm not playing him correctly but it seems like you need to wait until way late in the game when you're already at an advantage to try and resolve him. I have found that resolving a Keranos, God of Storms has been much more effective against control. I think I'll try both of them in the sideboard though and see how that works out.
What do you think of 1 Scepter of Fugue in the sideboard against other control decks? One of the problems I've faced in some matchups is that we have little ways of generating pressure. Landing this against control or combo would help to quickly pick apart their hand while Ultimatum threatens later on.
What are your favorite win Cons for this deck? I've found once they are mostly out of the game cruel ultimatum ends it but I also like suffer the past and batterskull because they stabilize the lifetotal so they can't just top deck a bolt and win. I found that was way too common. Any other efficient win cons?
Anger is a 2 of at most if you are running Damnations also possibly you should have zero main with Damnations. Dig as a four of? Are you running no Snapcasters? Because if you are running Snapcasters and Dig that seems pretty overkill on your yard.
Who are you directing this towards? Nobody in this thread has suggested actually running 4 Dig Through Time in this deck. It has been stated multiple times that 2 is the correct number.
I really don't like the though of tapping out for Jace Beleren but have not had much opportunity to playtest it.
This was originally a Liliana of the Veil, but testing against Jund demonstrated how much the +1 hurts when you are trying to hold counter magic or build a manabase to cast Cruel Ultimatum.
I also have concerns about the Affinity and Tron (RG or U) match-up. Affinity, I have considered Shatterstorm but Consume the Meek already gets all of their creatures, including Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoth Nexus. Tron, I have considered Sowing Salt but find that a resolved Sundering Titan is a complete hoser. Has anyone considered Polymorphist's Jest as a way to get around hexproof, large, or generally oddball creatures?
There's so many 1 of's and 2 of's in your deck I don't know how you could even get a consistent idea of how this deck plays. It seems like it would be different every time you play it. This isn't really where you want to be. The flexibility of Mystical Teachings is pretty much negated by the fact that it is too slow in this format, and diluting your deck with a bunch of situational 1 of's makes you much more vulnerable to all the dangerous cards being played against you in modern.
Dig Through Time is the real deal. Your reasoning with Rest in Peace is pretty weak, because if someone actually does side it in just because you're running Dig, that's actually great for you because they're not instead playing a card that is actually killing you. Either way, Rest in Peace would limit the effectiveness of the two other cards you mentioned anyway. Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy are too little impact and too slow in this format. Dig Through Time finds us the answers we need almost every time.
Sorry if this response was a little curt, but I've tested many of these cards as well as the Teachings-type deck, and it's just not nearly as effective as the alternatives options I mentioned. We're already at a slight disadvantage in playing this deck as opposed to UWR Control, so we can't really dilute the deck any further by running fringe options.
From my recent testings I'm convinced that we should not be running any less than 2 copies of Dig Through Time. This card is amazing. At this point though I'm a little concerned with 2 copies in addition to 2 Cruel Ultimatums. Having 2+ of these in your hand in the early game is pretty terrible. I think going down to 1 Ultimatum with 2 Digs is probably better. We're not casting Ultimatum till very late in the game anyway, and if we desperately need it then we can Dig for it. I think I will try these numbers out and see how they do. But seriously, Dig Through Time is so good. I would be playing 4 copies if it wasn't competing with the graveyard with Snapcaster Mage.
How is Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver? Has anybody ever tried testing it? And on another note, is Think Twice just not good enough for modern anymore? I can't decide. When it's good it's good, when it's bad I wish I had a more proactive card. Thoughts?
I love Ashiok, but I don't think he cuts it in a deck like this. Maybe in a more midrange type deck, but here you don't really want to tap out on turn 3 for him. He's also best against creature decks, but at the same time in a control deck you would rather just be playing removal for those creatures.
At this point I would say Think Twice does not cut it in modern anymore. Remand has filled its slot, and in terms of card draw Dig Through Time is so much better.
With the few matches I've played against Ascendancy, it really is just a coin flip. If you're on the play and have a 2 mana counter in hand, you should be in good shape. Then drawing into an Electrolyze against their mana dorks will usually seal you the game. On the other hand, they can go first and just kill you on turn 2-3 if you don't have the right cards immediately. I'd say there's not a whole lot we can do to worry about it in terms of sideboard; we should already have Control/combo type matchup cards that fill these slots (Spell Pierce, Counterflux, etc.)
i like the overall setup of your list (especially the discard in the sideboard), i'm wondering if you have enough islands for shackles. People often tell me that to make shackles work you need a ton of islands, although i don't know the number or anything. If you are really wanting to steal creatures really badly though you might consider threads of disloyalty. Also the think twice you might just want to swap for +1 snappy and +1 dig through time. Mostly that's just because I don't think think twice is good enough for modern anymore now that most people have started playing remands instead. Although really i guess i would much prefer dig over keranos since its good in all the same matchups and can be cast without putting shields down (eot). Thats mostly though because i've never been a big fan of keranos i appreciate his power level but he always takes forever to really get going and sometimes youll just get run over by damage before he has any effect. also people have started running a lot more 4 toughness creatures in modern these days.
Shackles is actually fine with this mana base, the majority of the time I have plenty of Islands out, usually at least 4-6 when I would want to drop Shackles. I most commonly want to fetch Watery Grave, Steam Vents and basic Islands so Shackles has worked well for me. Threads of Disloyalty can only hit small creatures (besides Goyf) anyway so I see Shackles as being more flexible.
You make a good point about Think Twice but I've found it to be pretty valuable. This deck in particular always wants to dig further for more lands and our big finishers, so I like the extra draw.
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Dig Through Time is definitely better than Sphinx's Revelation in most cases. I considered not running Cruel Ultimatum as well but I think it's just too powerful to not include at least 1 copy.
Deprive has always intrigued me but I'm not really sold on it. Early game it seems like it really hinders you, and late game you're in a position where you could afford to cast Counterflux or Dissolve instead.
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I like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir a lot and I have tested him. Maybe I've just been getting unlucky though because he's been pretty underwhelming for me thus far. Most of the time they just let him resolve and then Path to Exile him right away. Maybe I'm not playing him correctly but it seems like you need to wait until way late in the game when you're already at an advantage to try and resolve him. I have found that resolving a Keranos, God of Storms has been much more effective against control. I think I'll try both of them in the sideboard though and see how that works out.
Snapcaster Mage + burn spells, Creeping Tar Pit and Batterskull are the most common ones for me.
Who are you directing this towards? Nobody in this thread has suggested actually running 4 Dig Through Time in this deck. It has been stated multiple times that 2 is the correct number.
There's so many 1 of's and 2 of's in your deck I don't know how you could even get a consistent idea of how this deck plays. It seems like it would be different every time you play it. This isn't really where you want to be. The flexibility of Mystical Teachings is pretty much negated by the fact that it is too slow in this format, and diluting your deck with a bunch of situational 1 of's makes you much more vulnerable to all the dangerous cards being played against you in modern.
I suggest you cut out the fringe cards and fill in the essentials. Always 4 Lightning Bolt and 4 Cryptic Command, cut the Consume the Meek for a couple Damnation or Anger of the Gods. The Talisman of Dominance should be cut for more land, and the mana base needs to be more consistent as well with more fetchlands.
Dig Through Time is the real deal. Your reasoning with Rest in Peace is pretty weak, because if someone actually does side it in just because you're running Dig, that's actually great for you because they're not instead playing a card that is actually killing you. Either way, Rest in Peace would limit the effectiveness of the two other cards you mentioned anyway. Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy are too little impact and too slow in this format. Dig Through Time finds us the answers we need almost every time.
Sorry if this response was a little curt, but I've tested many of these cards as well as the Teachings-type deck, and it's just not nearly as effective as the alternatives options I mentioned. We're already at a slight disadvantage in playing this deck as opposed to UWR Control, so we can't really dilute the deck any further by running fringe options.
I love Ashiok, but I don't think he cuts it in a deck like this. Maybe in a more midrange type deck, but here you don't really want to tap out on turn 3 for him. He's also best against creature decks, but at the same time in a control deck you would rather just be playing removal for those creatures.
At this point I would say Think Twice does not cut it in modern anymore. Remand has filled its slot, and in terms of card draw Dig Through Time is so much better.
Shackles is actually fine with this mana base, the majority of the time I have plenty of Islands out, usually at least 4-6 when I would want to drop Shackles. I most commonly want to fetch Watery Grave, Steam Vents and basic Islands so Shackles has worked well for me. Threads of Disloyalty can only hit small creatures (besides Goyf) anyway so I see Shackles as being more flexible.
You make a good point about Think Twice but I've found it to be pretty valuable. This deck in particular always wants to dig further for more lands and our big finishers, so I like the extra draw.