I've been playing Twin for over a year now and thinking about sleeving this up again for fun (it was my first Modern deck). How do you all deal with Blood Moon, aside from playing around it?
I'm looking at squeezing in a couple of Abrupt Decays with an Overgrown Tomb and Breeding Pool in the deck for more removal... has anyone tried this?
As for Spell Snare, I don't think its out of favor, at least not in other control decks. There are still a ton of 2 drops in Modern.
As far has hard counters go, as long as you're playing something like Thought Scour or Forbidden Alchemy, I have found Logic Knot to be an acceptable card as a one-of.
Logic Knot is perfectly reasonable as a two of in a deck, even with a DTT, and you don't need to be wasting cards with Thought Scour to fill your GY. I don't understand control decks pitching what could be useful cards to the GY just to be able to cast other cards they may or may not have in their hand. Don't forget that it gives you two options for X, your mana, or graveyard fodder. Its the closest thing to a 2cmc hard counter in modern. I don't run anything to fill my GY and I rarely ever have to tap mana for X.
I hope I don't sound like I'm trolling too much, but I used to play Cruel Control until I discovered that Esper Control is more powerful and better for the current meta. Flat out, I'm winning more games with Esper than I was with Grixis. Anyway, that got me thinking that if I were to sleeve up Grixis again, what would the deck look like?
with scapeshift and the delver decks being as prevalent as they are, 2 Cruel Ultimatums doesn't seem like a good place to be at the moment.
Indeed. As much as I like that card, its not a good win condition right now. You're better of with Keranos or Batterskull beat downs. A Logic Knot or two could probably fit into this list somewhere.
I've played Remands in the deck. I tried replacing all my leaks with Remands for awhile and it didn't feel right. It isn't a tempo deck that likes to drop threats... we're always on our heels, so putting the spell back into the hand means you just have to deal with it again and hope you have another card in hand to do so. 2 Remands and 2-3 Leaks are a good mix I think.
Also i've been meaning to ask if people like playing the discard spells in the sideboard or mainboard.
To me this is the #1 reason to play Grixis over UWR. My deck list earlier had 2 Thoughsieze and 4 IoK. I want to hit 2 or 3 of those a game, and I think the biggest benefit of the new fetch lands is we have better odds of a turn 1 IoK for only 1 life, or Thoughtsieze for 3 life instead of 5 (Tarn to fetch Watery Grave). In the past I didn't have much trouble casting CU on turn 7 if I hit land drops. The mana base usually let me get the correct 7 lands by that time that I needed. The only time I had mana issues is when I flat out didn't draw it.
Still not sure why everyone is fixated on Think Twice. Why not play something more proactive mainboard like Shadow of Doubt? You don't get the flashback (unless you use a Snappy) but it is never a completely dead card. If you are desperate for a draw, just cast it. Otherwise you have better mainboard tech against Pod, Scapeshift, and fetch lands. Considering people are probably going to be running more fetch lands soon Shadow of Doubt may have even more uses.
Fetches are the only cards really worth looking at in this set for Grixis (yes, I realize only half the set has been spoiled; maybe if we get an actually good instant speed delve spell but after seeing treasure cruise that seems unlikely).
While Pearl Lake Ancient is tutorable with teachings, it's still a lackluster card in that it does not win the game on the spot. Modern is a Turn 4 format, and things that are played at 5+ need to win on the spot. Batterskull/Wurmcoil are useable because resolving one is essentially a win vs fair decks, while a card like Keranos is usable because it generates card advantage over time in the grindy matchups it matters in.
I was hoping to post a list today but I'm still working on fitting in Think Twice in the main and Crucible of Worlds in the side. I hope to have something definitive to post by the end of the week.
I admit I misread and over estimated Adament Negation, but stating that Pearl Lake Ancient is lack luster because it doesn't win on the spot is a weak argument. No cards in our deck win on the spot. If you want a turn 4 or 5 on the spot win you should switch to Twin or Pod. Keranos was questionable when it was first spoiled too, and yes it is a powerhouse in the grindy matchups. Ancient is uncounterable, so its pretty much guaranteed to hit the board on the opponents end step on turn 7, then you can protect it with all your mana up on your turn. The only thing to stop it is a Path to Exile after it resolves, but Wurmcoil is just as susceptible. I'm not saying its the holy grail answer or anything, just that it could be a very relevant sideboard card, especially in a deck that can tutor it. I can't count how many times I've failed to find a Batterskull when I needed it. Teachings increases your odds of finding a winner.
This deck is about to get much better with the 2 new on colour fetches, but I have been playing it without cruel ultimatum lately. Instead of the 2 seven mana sorceries, I have been running one Keranos, God of Storms and one batterskull as finishers. Both are easier to play through a Blood Moon. Both are better if you are behind. Both come down the turn after you Cryptic counter/bounce. I think this deck has a very good chance to establish itself as a modern control staple.
Yep, I've been thinking the same thing. I have all the cards to play a UR Twin, UR Delver/Pyromancer, and Cruel Control. The only time I've used Keranos though was in the Twin deck as a sideboard option. Brought in 2 of him and 2 Batterskulls essentially replacing the Twins to throw the opponent off. They've worked out very well in this case. I've been wanting to try it in the Cruel deck too.
For someone buying into the deck, what are the key cards that are ubiquitous amongst as many versions of the deck as possible? In other words, what should be the first cards on my shopping list if I'm looking to build the deck a bit at a time?
Snapcaster Mage's then Cryptic Commands, but unfortunately they are not cheap. The rest of the deck is pretty cheap and easy to acquire. I wouldn't go any less than 3 of each of those.
Hello, all, I played cruel control back when this thread was at half the replies it was now, I don't know if anyone knows if Badd Business still says hi much on this thread but he came up with a great approach to the deck taking the approach of a trinket mage package, allowing us to make use of thirst for knowledge as our card draw of choice and with allowing us to play signets to ramp into ultimatum and also allow us to play tectonic edge in our mana base. Just an idea, since I haven't played in the modern metagame for over the year and I'm unsure how the deck would play in the current meta. Here's an example decklist of the deck use to look like that Badd Business used.
You only have 3 artifacts that Trinket Mage can fetch, doesn't seem worth it unless you can find other mana rocks that cost 1.
Young Pyromancer is a good idea, and I think I recall seeing a 3-1 or 4-0 daily list with some. The issue I see with them is if they are the only 4 creatures you have other than Snapcaster Mages they just become easy targets for removal. Opponents have a clear choice on which creature to remove, they don't have to decide between the Pyromancer or a Delver for instance. Yes, they may have a couple of tokens to deal with too, but they should always remove the source first, and unless you can counter the removal, they're going to kill it asap.
I once tried Vampire Nighthawks in a build and really liked them. If I were going to ditch Cruel Ultimatums for something more aggressive and creature based, it would be Nighthawks. They fit the theme of the deck and can block and remove anything from the game. If you get to swing with it, you can offset some life loss.
Magma Jet does not equal Electrolyze. You should not be playing fewer Electrolyzes so you can play more Magma Jets.
Electrolyze is a blind draw. Yeah, its +1 card in your hand, but if you need a land and you draw something else, what did you really gain? You might get a land the next draw, but you still don't know. Magma Jet gives you more options. If I need a land next turn I can be more confident in getting said land because I can dig further and set my next draw.
Regardless, I've found the answer to making this deck better, and its called Splinter Twin. I'm temporarily shelving this deck and switching it to a Grixis Twin deck :/ The deck needs something else, but I don't know what it is, to push it over the top. Right now its falling short. Yeah, it might finish 3-1 or 4-0 in a daily every once in awhile, but we have no idea what decks it went up against, so it really doesn't say much.
I'm looking at squeezing in a couple of Abrupt Decays with an Overgrown Tomb and Breeding Pool in the deck for more removal... has anyone tried this?
As for Spell Snare, I don't think its out of favor, at least not in other control decks. There are still a ton of 2 drops in Modern.
Logic Knot is perfectly reasonable as a two of in a deck, even with a DTT, and you don't need to be wasting cards with Thought Scour to fill your GY. I don't understand control decks pitching what could be useful cards to the GY just to be able to cast other cards they may or may not have in their hand. Don't forget that it gives you two options for X, your mana, or graveyard fodder. Its the closest thing to a 2cmc hard counter in modern. I don't run anything to fill my GY and I rarely ever have to tap mana for X.
2x Remand
2x Logic Knot
Indeed. As much as I like that card, its not a good win condition right now. You're better of with Keranos or Batterskull beat downs. A Logic Knot or two could probably fit into this list somewhere.
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vendilion clique
Draw/Counter/Removal
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Electrolyze
3 Spell Snare
2 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
4 Think Twice
2 Dig Through Time
1 Damnation
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Terminate
1 Blood Crypt
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Island
3 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Watery Grave
2 Darkblast
2 Suffer the Past
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Spellskite
2 Counterflux
1 Consume the Meek
1 Keranos, God of Storms
To me this is the #1 reason to play Grixis over UWR. My deck list earlier had 2 Thoughsieze and 4 IoK. I want to hit 2 or 3 of those a game, and I think the biggest benefit of the new fetch lands is we have better odds of a turn 1 IoK for only 1 life, or Thoughtsieze for 3 life instead of 5 (Tarn to fetch Watery Grave). In the past I didn't have much trouble casting CU on turn 7 if I hit land drops. The mana base usually let me get the correct 7 lands by that time that I needed. The only time I had mana issues is when I flat out didn't draw it.
Still not sure why everyone is fixated on Think Twice. Why not play something more proactive mainboard like Shadow of Doubt? You don't get the flashback (unless you use a Snappy) but it is never a completely dead card. If you are desperate for a draw, just cast it. Otherwise you have better mainboard tech against Pod, Scapeshift, and fetch lands. Considering people are probably going to be running more fetch lands soon Shadow of Doubt may have even more uses.
You mean like this? Dig Through Time
I admit I misread and over estimated Adament Negation, but stating that Pearl Lake Ancient is lack luster because it doesn't win on the spot is a weak argument. No cards in our deck win on the spot. If you want a turn 4 or 5 on the spot win you should switch to Twin or Pod. Keranos was questionable when it was first spoiled too, and yes it is a powerhouse in the grindy matchups. Ancient is uncounterable, so its pretty much guaranteed to hit the board on the opponents end step on turn 7, then you can protect it with all your mana up on your turn. The only thing to stop it is a Path to Exile after it resolves, but Wurmcoil is just as susceptible. I'm not saying its the holy grail answer or anything, just that it could be a very relevant sideboard card, especially in a deck that can tutor it. I can't count how many times I've failed to find a Batterskull when I needed it. Teachings increases your odds of finding a winner.
Very welcoming and constructive comment, thanks for sharing!
Actually, I realized it still only counters non-creature spells. So probably not good in our deck, maybe good in a tarmo deck.
Pearl Lake Ancient is tutorable with teachings though, so that has potential.
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
1 Geth's Verdict
4 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Terminate
1 Dismember
3 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Batterskull
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Land
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Island
3 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
3 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Spellskite
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Damnation
2 Consume the Meek
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Yes, I can see having a single miser copy of this in a deck similar to how a single copy of Suffer the Past can be used as a potential finisher.
Yep, I've been thinking the same thing. I have all the cards to play a UR Twin, UR Delver/Pyromancer, and Cruel Control. The only time I've used Keranos though was in the Twin deck as a sideboard option. Brought in 2 of him and 2 Batterskulls essentially replacing the Twins to throw the opponent off. They've worked out very well in this case. I've been wanting to try it in the Cruel deck too.
Snapcaster Mage's then Cryptic Commands, but unfortunately they are not cheap. The rest of the deck is pretty cheap and easy to acquire. I wouldn't go any less than 3 of each of those.
You only have 3 artifacts that Trinket Mage can fetch, doesn't seem worth it unless you can find other mana rocks that cost 1.
I once tried Vampire Nighthawks in a build and really liked them. If I were going to ditch Cruel Ultimatums for something more aggressive and creature based, it would be Nighthawks. They fit the theme of the deck and can block and remove anything from the game. If you get to swing with it, you can offset some life loss.
Electrolyze is a blind draw. Yeah, its +1 card in your hand, but if you need a land and you draw something else, what did you really gain? You might get a land the next draw, but you still don't know. Magma Jet gives you more options. If I need a land next turn I can be more confident in getting said land because I can dig further and set my next draw.
Regardless, I've found the answer to making this deck better, and its called Splinter Twin. I'm temporarily shelving this deck and switching it to a Grixis Twin deck :/ The deck needs something else, but I don't know what it is, to push it over the top. Right now its falling short. Yeah, it might finish 3-1 or 4-0 in a daily every once in awhile, but we have no idea what decks it went up against, so it really doesn't say much.