Path doesnt stop sac spells. The biggest weakness for bogle.
Yeah I know that, I'm just conceding that there should be at least one slot where Tithe could be sided in.
That said normally Bogles attacks the edict side of the picture by having a second body to sandbag with (cue Dryad Arbor). Again, the manabase of that deck is messy and easily disrupted due to its reliance on gimmicks like fetching Arbors, or cracking Horizon Canopies...
It doesnt dilute the deck at all. I feel it strengthens it to a degree. Most people play against bogle have a certain mind set when they see the first hexproof dude. Having ways to protect that dude throws them off their game plan. If you figure most bogle decks run 12-16 hexproof dudes and 20-24 auras/enchantments, running 3-4 tithes doesnt hurt the deck at all.
The hexproof dude kinda protects itself.
Sure, Tithe makes an already annoying uninteractive game even more dickish, but they're really reliant on their deck letting them assemble an overpowered pantsed-up weenie with the magic H-word.
That said if I recall right they should still run Path to Exile, so I guess if the meta's right that slot can just as well be a Mana Tithe slot.
Actually, from what I've seen, the reason why those two decks don't do well is that they don't have enough room for disruption and just auto-lose to combo.
I'll let you in on a secret, Bogles is a very unstable deck that lives and dies on being able to drop a Bogle and suit it up as early as possible. Keen Sense is like duct tape for the deck.
Also the manabase is total crap, overly reliant on nonbasics and folds over if it suddenly can't make colors.
What it gains in taking these risks, though, is that it's just untouchable. Hexproof is that powerful that it's worth making an unstable deck just to ride on possibly doing busted things.
Also if it shows up too much Bogles gets hated out via stuff like Hallowed Burial or whatever that pre-Terminus card is called. It's to be feared at a meta level, where it can just rinse the competition when it catches it off guard.
Soul Sisters and Bogles both can easily beat Naya Zoo (Really, see how much your Wild Nacatls do when your opponent has a Serra Ascendant and 2 Soul Sisters on the board. Or if your opponent has a hexproof 6/6 creature with vigilance, lifelink, and first strike). And other than decks with lifegain improving to combat Naya Zoo, I can't see Burn doing any worse because of Nacatl Naya. I can see your point on Hatebears though, especially since Tron would get worse with more aggro decks that can survive Pyroclasm in the format. I think moving Soul Sisters to Tier 1.5, Bogles to Tier 2, and Naya Zoo to Tier 1 is worth it even if Burn, Hatebears, and Death and Taxes get a little worse.
You can levy SS and Bogles against nearly any deck, especially if you strategically leave in a "but what if their deck fails on them and they don't draw the built in out against SS/Bogles" rider.
I mean really, Bogles is a flimsy metagame deck that either gets away with denying interaction to degenerate effect or just falls apart. They either have that hexproof 6/6 with the Coronet or they've just been struggling to connect a Keen Sense'd Gladecover Scout with your skull.
Then why has it not placed? Its not like it has not had plenty of chances.
Serious answer: bad meta up until perhaps recently.
Not so serious answer: because the last big name build was this shoddy weenie mess that Sullivan and Wescoe took to meh results, if they got there you'd be hard pressed to deny a slight resurgence in the archetype.
Since Gruul and Boros aren't doing well right now anyways and Hatebears, Burn, Soul Sisters, and Bogles are different enough that they wouldn't be invalidated, Nacatl wouldn't push anything out of the format.
YES THEY WOULD.
JUST BECAUSE BOROS ISN'T PLACING DOESN'T MEAN IT CAN'T.
Don't really get people saying that Wild Nacatl will push out other aggro decks. For starters Affinity, as it is, is probably better then Zoo with Wild Nacatl since it's way more explosive then Zoo could ever dream to be.
Merfolk aren't exactly a cakewalk either, especially if you factor in the 12+ lords, Master of Waves and the fact that Zoo starts most of their games at a virtual 15 life more often then not.
Compared to all of those, Wild Nacatl in Zoo is just a regular Joe doing his thing from nine to five. A vanilla 3/3 on an instalment plan doesn't exactly invalidate as many decks as people might think.
When Nacatl's being talked about, it's in the context of the aggro decks in Naya colors that become inferior when you can just build Naya Zoo instead, not in the grand scheme of all aggro varieties.
to play devils advocate here... how many of you are willing to pay an extra 2 -4 life a game? It's already widely joked about around my play groups that modern life totals basically start at 15 when you consider mana bases and thoughtseize. I'm not really suggesting it be unbanned, just pointing out a strong difference between legacy and modern.
I don't think you're allowed to ask that kind of question, even as DA, when you have Necropotence as your avatar.
How so? Also, banning DRS wouldn't kill any decks while banning Liliana would kill 8-Rack.
Something something something implying 8Rack is a real deck something something something Necrogen Mists is a thing something something something additional smarmy charms.
For a deck called 8Rack it's funny that a non-rack card would kill it, huh.
Lightning Bolt was overplayed well before DRS was even a thought in some designer's head. Unlike other removal spells, Lightning Bolt is never a dead card in hand.
Except for when your opponent is playing a Bogle deck and keeps undoing your burn faster than you can scorch them.
one of the main reasons why lightning bolt is ubiquitous is because of DRS.
And Confidant.
And sometimes Delver.
And Snapcaster but he produces value on entry. Same case with Clique.
And Goblin Guide.
And Vexing Devil but I'd take the 4 to remove him for free than fling a card.
And Treetop Village.
And Ravager until it gets past 3 toughness.
And Melira, along with anything Pod not named Wall of Roots.
And the fact that even when it feels like a dead card it still domes for 3, a relevant amount in pretty much any format.
DRS is just one more card in a long list of cards that already rewarded you for having Bolt on hand.
Would it be that bad without LED, Cabal Therapy and Ichorid?
Cards like that send it over the top, but a fair Dredge deck is essentially four Narcomoebas, a Dread Return or four, and a mix of things that mill (the dredge) and things that are worth milling (Narcs, Dreads, and reanimation targets).
Yeah I know that, I'm just conceding that there should be at least one slot where Tithe could be sided in.
That said normally Bogles attacks the edict side of the picture by having a second body to sandbag with (cue Dryad Arbor). Again, the manabase of that deck is messy and easily disrupted due to its reliance on gimmicks like fetching Arbors, or cracking Horizon Canopies...
The hexproof dude kinda protects itself.
Sure, Tithe makes an already annoying uninteractive game even more dickish, but they're really reliant on their deck letting them assemble an overpowered pantsed-up weenie with the magic H-word.
That said if I recall right they should still run Path to Exile, so I guess if the meta's right that slot can just as well be a Mana Tithe slot.
I'll let you in on a secret, Bogles is a very unstable deck that lives and dies on being able to drop a Bogle and suit it up as early as possible. Keen Sense is like duct tape for the deck.
Also the manabase is total crap, overly reliant on nonbasics and folds over if it suddenly can't make colors.
What it gains in taking these risks, though, is that it's just untouchable. Hexproof is that powerful that it's worth making an unstable deck just to ride on possibly doing busted things.
Also if it shows up too much Bogles gets hated out via stuff like Hallowed Burial or whatever that pre-Terminus card is called. It's to be feared at a meta level, where it can just rinse the competition when it catches it off guard.
You can levy SS and Bogles against nearly any deck, especially if you strategically leave in a "but what if their deck fails on them and they don't draw the built in out against SS/Bogles" rider.
I mean really, Bogles is a flimsy metagame deck that either gets away with denying interaction to degenerate effect or just falls apart. They either have that hexproof 6/6 with the Coronet or they've just been struggling to connect a Keen Sense'd Gladecover Scout with your skull.
Serious answer: bad meta up until perhaps recently.
Not so serious answer: because the last big name build was this shoddy weenie mess that Sullivan and Wescoe took to meh results, if they got there you'd be hard pressed to deny a slight resurgence in the archetype.
YES THEY WOULD.
JUST BECAUSE BOROS ISN'T PLACING DOESN'T MEAN IT CAN'T.
When Nacatl's being talked about, it's in the context of the aggro decks in Naya colors that become inferior when you can just build Naya Zoo instead, not in the grand scheme of all aggro varieties.
I don't think you're allowed to ask that kind of question, even as DA, when you have Necropotence as your avatar.
If I had to ballpark it, about every 5th page or so.
/sarcasm
But seriously the way we all circle around retreading old ground I can only imagine the virtual dirt we've plodded has become a neck-deep trench.
Something something something implying 8Rack is a real deck something something something Necrogen Mists is a thing something something something additional smarmy charms.
For a deck called 8Rack it's funny that a non-rack card would kill it, huh.
Ban uninteractive decks.
Let Bogle exist.
Yep, seems legit Wizards. Seems legit.
Except for when your opponent is playing a Bogle deck and keeps undoing your burn faster than you can scorch them.
And Confidant.
And sometimes Delver.
And Snapcaster but he produces value on entry. Same case with Clique.
And Goblin Guide.
And Vexing Devil but I'd take the 4 to remove him for free than fling a card.
And Treetop Village.
And Ravager until it gets past 3 toughness.
And Melira, along with anything Pod not named Wall of Roots.
And the fact that even when it feels like a dead card it still domes for 3, a relevant amount in pretty much any format.
DRS is just one more card in a long list of cards that already rewarded you for having Bolt on hand.
Final Form Affinity could, or so my understanding of the legends about RavAffinity Standard suggested...
As is it's just acceptably explosive.
Cards like that send it over the top, but a fair Dredge deck is essentially four Narcomoebas, a Dread Return or four, and a mix of things that mill (the dredge) and things that are worth milling (Narcs, Dreads, and reanimation targets).
And it does that job solid.
Wizards hates "mill out three Narcomoebas -> Dread Return"