So, no powerful equipment from that direction. That's a shame.
I have a question for some guys here. Why is it ok to run creature removal main, but if some card(s) would possibly require some extra artifact removal main or side, that's bad? Cause that's what some guys here are arguin when talking about unbans like jitte (dangerous imo, don't get me wrong), Sword of the Meek or Stoneforge?
Because the bulk of most decks are creatures. So running creature removal makes sense. Running other types of removal gives you more chance of having dead cards in your hand. It's as simple as that.
i'm actually really excited to see what those new equipment will do. it'll show whether their excuse of banning her is valid or BS. but i cannot see them pushing the bounds beyond swords, batterskull or jitte.
I agree. I remember reading somewhere that WotC didn't realize how powerful the equipment were when they created them, especially after printing SFM and they alluded to them being toned down in the future. I seriously doubt we're going to have anything close to skull or jitte unless they've decided that with SFM permanently banned (it would have to be) they can maybe push the boundaries a little.
But I'm not holding my breath. I think what we have now is as good as it's going to get for equipment, just like the early instants and sorceries (Bolt, Recall, Time Walk, etc.) were as good as we were going to get out of them.
In EDH you don't see decks that can pack up to 4 Abrupt Decays... Not to mention other possible hates (Illness in the Ranks might become a decent sideboard option if Blossom get too popular), and losing more life with the already painful Modern manabases is not something to be ignored either. People won't be able to run rampant full sets of fetches + shocks, tougthseize and blossom... well they can do this, but this will probably lead them to having about 10 life in turn 4 without even being hit by the opponent if they are not careful.
This, some people just say that because the bomb will not explode in their hands if they are wrong. It's easy to say things like "Jitte will not warp the meta" or "JTMS is safe" when they are not the ones who will deal with the negative effects of this proving to be wrong.
I think Wizards defensive position on this matter is good, although they a bit overprotective sometimes (GGT, AV and Sword come to mind)
I think it's exactly the opposite: wizard do not know what is goint to happen, and wizards is not willing to pay (literally) to see the results. They want to keep modern under control, to avoid things like the attendance drop that happened more than once, when they simply "left things fix themselves".
But they did prove to be ban worthy in a similar enviroment (at the time these bans did take place), the point is just that people don't agree with the arguments.
You are saying that first they should let the world burn, and only after that take action?
Extended, at the time of modern birth, was a good starting point for reference of wich card would be problematic on modern. The new expansions have changed this now, the only real problem is that wizards is too slow in taking these changes into account when talking about unbanning cards.
People might not like this protective position of wizards, but that do not mean this is wrong. IMO it's not that bad to see wizards actively trying to keep modern diverse and safe from some aburde decks, they just need to be slightly less protective, because cards such as GGT and AV do not belong this list anymore.
The whole problem with this line of thinking is that since these cards were legal in their respective formats, thousands of cards have entered into the card pool. There is no way to know how these new cards will either strengthen or weaken previous cards without giving them a chance.
I'm not asking something like Skullclamp to be unbanned which is obviously so broken that the only format you can play it in is Vintage. I'm talking about cards that are reasonable to at least be given a chance. If they're never given a chance, we'll never know and ultimately they'll just stay on the banned list forever.
That isn't the way we did things historically and it shouldn't be done this way now just because WotC is too scared that it might do anything to harm their precious new format.
At least if they give these cards a chance and they blow up in their faces, they can say "Hey we tried, it didn't work, and now they're banned for good."
But to ban them for good (which is essentially what is going to happen) without any opportunity to test them out in the current Modern environment is just wrong.
I don't know the entire original banned list before the format even started off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure Jace and SFM were among them and those cards should definitely be given a chance.
Look, this is the bottom line to a good portion of this banned list (the cards that were never even allowed to see play)
Essentially what WotC is saying is this.
"We are fortune tellers. We know exactly what's going to happen if we allow Card X into the format and therefore we are preemptively banning it."
This goes contradictory to every banned list ever maintained in the history of this game where cards were allowed to "prove" themselves ban worthy before giving them the ax.
Of course from here on in every card that is banned or taken off WILL be because of performance. But all the cards on it that were never given a chance, we will never know what the meta would have been like had they been allowed to have that chance.
Of course all the other fortune tellers in the Magic community are going to tell me how wrong I am.
Does anyone think that the ban list list is pretty good at where it is now?
For the most part? I guess. GGT has no business being on it but unbanning it won't do a darn thing because Dredge still won't be playable.
Unbanning Nacatl will make Naya more competitive but won't add any new decks and might take a couple away so that unbanning probably isn't worth it either.
Since URW is a powerhouse now, there's probably no reason to unban AV.
Taking off either Ponder or Preordain won't do enough to help anything. Not really. Both cards need to come off or there's no point to removing any of them.
BB will probably help Fae. How much? No clue. Independent testing has shown the card is no longer the green eyed monster it used to be. But players still irrationally hate it so unbanning it will probably do nothing but piss people off.
In short, yeah, the banned list is probably where it's going to be for a while until something breaks with Theros.
I would never play Chrome Mox in Storm. Does that make me a bad player? LED in SI or Belcher is one thing but Chrome Mox just looks like it would suck a lot in Storm.
Legacy TES plays Chrome Mox. So does Belcher. These decks need as much mana as possible early as they play very few land (TES about 14, Belcher 1 or 2 max)
Granted, Modern isn't Legacy but I can see running Mox in UR Storm to get an early PA out.
Better retire your cane with the Lotus attached to it and throw away your rocking chair. Make sure to tell everyone to get ON your lawn. You've been demoted to newbie, Steve. Can you tell me where the fountain of youth's been hiding all along? I want to throw Betty White in it and see if she was ever sexy.
About Chrome mox; Aside from helping Twin kill you on turn 3 the most powerful thing Chrome Mox is gonna' enable in Modern is a turn 1 Dark Confidant or Chalice of the Void for one. I don't remember the legacy deck that actually does this but with Mox Diamond instead. it's actually a really strong play either way. Not even close to broken, though.
As for the banned list, I think Chrome Mox is safe now that UR Storm is dead in the water. If I recall, the reason it was banned was because they thought storm decks would go off too quickly. Well, no chance of that happening anymore. And a turn 1 Bob isn't the end of the world either.
I play Magic since limited/revised Editions and I can safely say that both Homelands, Fallen Empires and also Chronicles or the Dark were bought a ton no matter what the set was like and besides were not really that weak in comparison to the format both sets had some cards that were actually played back then.
Fallen Empires specifically I remember the black and white wheenie knights.
Seems to me you are just a relatively new Magic player who has only seen Magic sets on sale since they marked rarity on the cards and are simply spoiled by the power level of modern cards.
It's not like Alliances, Mirage etc were super powerful sets compared to today either just because Alliance has a broken standout card that is still a legacy staple.
Balduvian Horde was a 30$ card back then, today it is a joke of a card in terms of powerlevel as is Juzaam Djinn it is a bit of a shame that the power level of cards has increased so dramatically.
Relatively new? OMG, thank you for my laugh of the day. I've been playing since Revised and have seen it all in this game. And I distinctly remember when boxes of Fallen Empires tanked to $20. You couldn't give them away they were so bad and overproduced.
What does any of this have to do with the banned list? Stay on topic people.
As for myself, I'd like to see Bitterblossom come off the banned list the most. I think it fits into a couple decks but I don't forsee it warping the format in any negative way.
I'm sorry. It came up because of Bocephus arguing that players don't want powerful cards and want balance and thus the banned list we have. I insist that this is nonsense that historically players want powerful cards and evidenced this by the fact that Fallen Empires and Homelands almost killed Magic because the sets we weak and crap.
Therefore, I contend that the banned list is hurting more than helping Modern because there are many cards on it that players want to play because they are powerful and fun and not allowing them to be played is driving players away from the format.
And some of the cards are marginally powerful by today's standards, such as BB. That card is perfectly fair today and won't warp Modern in the least. It has no business being on the list anymore.
AV has no business being on the list, drawing 3 cards on turn 5. It is simply not that big a deal.
I'd go on but I'm only going to end up getting frustrated.
The banned list is oppressive and not good for the health of this format, period.
Not at all. Back then some of the cards we now consider weak were actually pretty decent, e.g. Memory Lapse (Remand kinda obsoleted it), Eron the Relentless, Autumn's Willow, Order of the Ebon Hand, etc.
But even by today's standards there's High Tide, Goblin Grenade, and Merchant Scroll.
What sales figures? I'm very curious as to where you got this data, as this claim that it "breathed new life into Magic" runs counter to practically everything I've heard from people at Wizards in regards to the Urza's block.
Please, just stop it. Everybody who played back then knows that Fallen Empires and Homelands were the most horrible sets ever made and didn't sell. At one point, Fallen Empire boosters were selling for under a dollar. A box was about $20. You couldn't give the **** away. I don't care if there were a few playable cards. The sets were universally hated and almost killed this game.
Urza's was a better selling block, period. You can't even argue this. Was it Ravnica level of sales? Of course not. But it did sell and Magic went on. Was it as big as it became when Ravnica was released? Of course not. But Magic didn't die after Urza's nor long after it. But Fallen Empires and Homelands literally almost killed it as it was their lowest sales in the history of this game outside of Alpha where there simply weren't that many cards made.
So tell me again what set High Tide was printed in?
When Fallen Empires came out and this game almost died a horrible death, High Tide didn't get a ****'s worth of play. It wasn't until Time Spiral was printed that it saw any play at all.
Fallen Empires and Homelands almost killed this game.
I also disagree about the power issues. People want balanced and diverse more then power. If the format had 1 or 2 decks to play we wouldnt see near the attendance we see now.
Here is where I have historical PROOF that you're wrong.
Do you know why Magic almost died after Fallen Empires and Homelands?
Because there wasn't a spell in the lot worth **** outside if Hymn.
They were the most boring sets of do nothing cards WotC ever made and it almost killed this game.
With all its brokenness, Urza's breathed new life into Magic. The sales figures don't lie.
You can't give players the same old same old boring cards and expect them to keep playing this game. Fallen Empires and Homelands are historical proof of this.
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Because the bulk of most decks are creatures. So running creature removal makes sense. Running other types of removal gives you more chance of having dead cards in your hand. It's as simple as that.
I agree. I remember reading somewhere that WotC didn't realize how powerful the equipment were when they created them, especially after printing SFM and they alluded to them being toned down in the future. I seriously doubt we're going to have anything close to skull or jitte unless they've decided that with SFM permanently banned (it would have to be) they can maybe push the boundaries a little.
But I'm not holding my breath. I think what we have now is as good as it's going to get for equipment, just like the early instants and sorceries (Bolt, Recall, Time Walk, etc.) were as good as we were going to get out of them.
The whole problem with this line of thinking is that since these cards were legal in their respective formats, thousands of cards have entered into the card pool. There is no way to know how these new cards will either strengthen or weaken previous cards without giving them a chance.
I'm not asking something like Skullclamp to be unbanned which is obviously so broken that the only format you can play it in is Vintage. I'm talking about cards that are reasonable to at least be given a chance. If they're never given a chance, we'll never know and ultimately they'll just stay on the banned list forever.
That isn't the way we did things historically and it shouldn't be done this way now just because WotC is too scared that it might do anything to harm their precious new format.
At least if they give these cards a chance and they blow up in their faces, they can say "Hey we tried, it didn't work, and now they're banned for good."
But to ban them for good (which is essentially what is going to happen) without any opportunity to test them out in the current Modern environment is just wrong.
I don't know the entire original banned list before the format even started off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure Jace and SFM were among them and those cards should definitely be given a chance.
Essentially what WotC is saying is this.
"We are fortune tellers. We know exactly what's going to happen if we allow Card X into the format and therefore we are preemptively banning it."
This goes contradictory to every banned list ever maintained in the history of this game where cards were allowed to "prove" themselves ban worthy before giving them the ax.
Of course from here on in every card that is banned or taken off WILL be because of performance. But all the cards on it that were never given a chance, we will never know what the meta would have been like had they been allowed to have that chance.
Of course all the other fortune tellers in the Magic community are going to tell me how wrong I am.
For the most part? I guess. GGT has no business being on it but unbanning it won't do a darn thing because Dredge still won't be playable.
Unbanning Nacatl will make Naya more competitive but won't add any new decks and might take a couple away so that unbanning probably isn't worth it either.
Since URW is a powerhouse now, there's probably no reason to unban AV.
Taking off either Ponder or Preordain won't do enough to help anything. Not really. Both cards need to come off or there's no point to removing any of them.
BB will probably help Fae. How much? No clue. Independent testing has shown the card is no longer the green eyed monster it used to be. But players still irrationally hate it so unbanning it will probably do nothing but piss people off.
In short, yeah, the banned list is probably where it's going to be for a while until something breaks with Theros.
For Modern? As far as I know, Dark Depths was always on the banned list right from the start.
The new Legend rule with Thespian's Stage.
The card is so bad, Legacy Lands is starting to move to Dark Depths and other win cons including Punishing Fire.
If you are beaten by a Mindslaver lock you DESERVED to lose.
Unbelievable.
Can we please go back to talking about semi sensible cards to be added to the banned list?
Legacy TES plays Chrome Mox. So does Belcher. These decks need as much mana as possible early as they play very few land (TES about 14, Belcher 1 or 2 max)
Granted, Modern isn't Legacy but I can see running Mox in UR Storm to get an early PA out.
Aggro Loam uses Mox Diamond for such shenanigans.
As for the banned list, I think Chrome Mox is safe now that UR Storm is dead in the water. If I recall, the reason it was banned was because they thought storm decks would go off too quickly. Well, no chance of that happening anymore. And a turn 1 Bob isn't the end of the world either.
Relatively new? OMG, thank you for my laugh of the day. I've been playing since Revised and have seen it all in this game. And I distinctly remember when boxes of Fallen Empires tanked to $20. You couldn't give them away they were so bad and overproduced.
Thank you. I needed that little chuckle.
I'm sorry. It came up because of Bocephus arguing that players don't want powerful cards and want balance and thus the banned list we have. I insist that this is nonsense that historically players want powerful cards and evidenced this by the fact that Fallen Empires and Homelands almost killed Magic because the sets we weak and crap.
Therefore, I contend that the banned list is hurting more than helping Modern because there are many cards on it that players want to play because they are powerful and fun and not allowing them to be played is driving players away from the format.
And some of the cards are marginally powerful by today's standards, such as BB. That card is perfectly fair today and won't warp Modern in the least. It has no business being on the list anymore.
AV has no business being on the list, drawing 3 cards on turn 5. It is simply not that big a deal.
I'd go on but I'm only going to end up getting frustrated.
The banned list is oppressive and not good for the health of this format, period.
Please, just stop it. Everybody who played back then knows that Fallen Empires and Homelands were the most horrible sets ever made and didn't sell. At one point, Fallen Empire boosters were selling for under a dollar. A box was about $20. You couldn't give the **** away. I don't care if there were a few playable cards. The sets were universally hated and almost killed this game.
Urza's was a better selling block, period. You can't even argue this. Was it Ravnica level of sales? Of course not. But it did sell and Magic went on. Was it as big as it became when Ravnica was released? Of course not. But Magic didn't die after Urza's nor long after it. But Fallen Empires and Homelands literally almost killed it as it was their lowest sales in the history of this game outside of Alpha where there simply weren't that many cards made.
This fact is not even arguable.
When Fallen Empires came out and this game almost died a horrible death, High Tide didn't get a ****'s worth of play. It wasn't until Time Spiral was printed that it saw any play at all.
Fallen Empires and Homelands almost killed this game.
Here is where I have historical PROOF that you're wrong.
Do you know why Magic almost died after Fallen Empires and Homelands?
Because there wasn't a spell in the lot worth **** outside if Hymn.
They were the most boring sets of do nothing cards WotC ever made and it almost killed this game.
With all its brokenness, Urza's breathed new life into Magic. The sales figures don't lie.
You can't give players the same old same old boring cards and expect them to keep playing this game. Fallen Empires and Homelands are historical proof of this.