^Talks about "competitive format," is terrified of unbans on clearly safe cards. Who's being unreasonable again?
Honestly I stand by the opinion that most of the banlist can come off. The fact that this glass-cannon Griselbrand deck can't even make tier 1 despite being explosive as all hell means that the format can adapt for fast, fragile combo. So why are the dredge pieces and Chrome Mox banned? No combo deck with those pieces would be any faster or more consistent than the stupid griselbrand deck, especially since Chrome Mox by definition leads to inconsistency, because not all Chrome Mox hands are keepable. Play with the card before you pull out your pitchforks. It's fine.
The GSZ/Nacatl bans were supposed to "diversify aggro archetypes." Aggro is basically nonexistent outside of affinity. So why not throw G/x a bone and make a viable Zoo deck that people actually have to worry about? The format has changed a ton, and now there are actual decks that can run Wrath effects maindeck to punish Zoo, where before that wasn't the case, since control was killed with the initial banlist and took forever to really start to emerge.
Punishing Fire is the fairest magic you can possibly play. In Legacy Punishing Jund/Maverick are the definition of fair. All it does is kill creatures. It does it well, yes, but it's inefficient and wastes time to keep recurring and firing every turn. Plus a lot of things dodge Fires as it is, and Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite have been printed since the ban and prey on that card naturally. So why not let essentially fair decks have an engine that isn't a planeswalker? Sword of the Meek is an engine too: it's not a combo, it doesn't win the game when assembled, it merely lets you efficiently turn open mana into resources. It comes on too late to really stall aggro and it's easily countered by control. It's not hard to die after ThopterSword is assembled, any combo deck ignores it, so the only thing it really blanks completely is creature-based midrange with no disruption or reach. And doesn't that deck deserve a predator?
Jitte is rough in that the new legend rule made it harder to unban. Essentially every creature deck will want to play it, but BGx will have the most answers to it in the form of Decay and Pulse, and therefore will win most Jitte mirrors and cement the deck even further as the best archetype. Before you could just play your own Jitte and legend rule them, but now since each one has to be removed the whole idea just isn't worth it for what benefit it would give to the format. The same reasoning applies to Jace: it's not too good or unfair or anything, in fact it's weaker in this format than in Legacy, but the fact that matchups will come down to landing Jace AND answering the opponents means it causes too many headaches.
It all depends on what your vision of the format is and would others play said format. When you can have 2 'pro' players write 2 very different articles on what the unbans/bans should be in the format, it just goes to show everyone is looking for something different from the format. (It seems the pros who seem to all enjoy the same format, should be a little closer to the same then random guys/gals on a forum).
A faster, more broken format sounds like fun, until everyone realizes wins are more luck based then skill based. Granted now you can play a T1-T1.5 deck flawlessly and still lose to a random top deck on turn 4. Making the format faster would just increase those odds of losing that way and make your opening hand exponentially more important. How much fun would it be to lose a game or match because you didnt get the right starting hand? How hard would it be to bring newer players into a format like that?
I was not comparing the formats mate, I was simply saying that is always how I have seen the card played. Since that's all I know it as, what would the difference be.
I know they are different and I know my knowledge is limited. That is why I asked a question and did not assume to know the answer. Also you did not answer my question.
Actually I did. Mox would speed up decks/format. Wotc is struggling to keep decks from winning consistently before turn 4. Adding mox would make it harder. Once one deck got faster because of mox, all decks would have to do the same to keep up. So mox would warp the format.
Ok coming from my normal Legacy Viewpoint, so do not think I am trolling. This is a real question.
Mox in Legacy is used to power only a handful of decks. Of them only TES is a fast combo deck. Most of the decks it finds itself in are Prison decks that use the quick mana to lock down games. Cards like Moon and 3Sphere played in the opening turns to lock down the game.
It is in these situations also used alongside the SOL lands for optimum speed. Now since this format does not have SOL lands, is the card really that broken or am I looking at everything though my "Nothing is broken when everything is" lens again?
I thought we had gotten past the comparing of Modern to Legacy.
Just because something is fine in Legacy, does not mean it will be fine in Modern. Modern does not have the policing cards Legacy has so effects will be different and magnified.
Quote from Hinotama »
Chrome mox is fine.
No it isnt. It speeds up the format. So much that decks that probably wouldnt run it, have to run it to keep up. Being a turn 4 format, Wotc does not want to give twin the ability to win turn 3 consistently.
He is a player also. He has his own views and bias in writing the article. Like others have said, as soon as he said chrome mox was ok to come off, I stopped taking him serious, and read it just like I would some of the posters on here.
Ok well as a Jund player, let me ask you, how do you feel your chances are going into a big tournament? Do you feel like your $2000 deck stacks up well in the current meta? I'm fairly new to Jund, but it just seems like with the rise in Affinity and Twin, we just don't match up very well.
This is exactly why they had to nerf Jund. There can not be a single deck everyone know sis the best deck in the format and thats all anyone plays, at least those who are serious about placing in a tournament. Wotc had to bring the deck back to the field for diversity reasons. If they didnt, they could just rename the format Jund.
P&P lead to much higher consistency of blue decks, tilting the format towards a blue format since no other color has that type of deck manipulation. They also make combo much more consistent and a bit faster. I could see preordain coming off leaving ponder on.
The hexproof dude kinda protects itself.
Sure, Tithe makes an already annoying uninteractive game even more dickish, but they're really reliant on their deck letting them assemble an overpowered pantsed-up weenie with the magic H-word.
That said if I recall right they should still run Path to Exile, so I guess if the meta's right that slot can just as well be a Mana Tithe slot.
Path doesnt stop sac spells. The biggest weakness for bogle.
I have to admit I only read about Tithe, not about Tithe in Bogles, though it sounds like it would delude the deck far more than it would help.
Premature conceding has nothing to do with the powerlevel of a card btw, this happens all the time for whatever reason people will randomly scoop after a blowout.
It doesnt dilute the deck at all. I feel it strengthens it to a degree. Most people play against bogle have a certain mind set when they see the first hexproof dude. Having ways to protect that dude throws them off their game plan. If you figure most bogle decks run 12-16 hexproof dudes and 20-24 auras/enchantments, running 3-4 tithes doesnt hurt the deck at all.
They're not a turn behind, since you'Re leaving up W to make them play a turn late. So technically you'Re putting both sides a turn behind, unless you're up on manasources.
The tilting factor is definitely there though, I've seen people playing horrible after they got blown out by anything^^
You have to remember bogle runs on one drops. There is like 2 2 drops in the deck. Leaving a mana open is not hurting you in the long run. the tilt factor and caution play the rest of the match works volumes.
I have tithed a lilly turn 2 on jund and had the guy scoop right there.
Pisshah, they said the same thing about Valakut when they banned it...
And look where we are now...
AF didnt talk any where near as much about Kut as he did BB.
Quote from dotmatrix »
I'll let you in on a secret, Bogles is a very unstable deck that lives and dies on being able to drop a Bogle and suit it up as early as possible. Keen Sense is like duct tape for the deck.
Also the manabase is total crap, overly reliant on nonbasics and folds over if it suddenly can't make colors.
What it gains in taking these risks, though, is that it's just untouchable. Hexproof is that powerful that it's worth making an unstable deck just to ride on possibly doing busted things.
Also if it shows up too much Bogles gets hated out via stuff like Hallowed Burial or whatever that pre-Terminus card is called. It's to be feared at a meta level, where it can just rinse the competition when it catches it off guard.
This is partially correct. Certain builds are very bogle dependent. Some 3 color versions run abundant growth. Turn 1 bogle into a turn 2 abundant growth into keen sense and ethereal armor is usually a rough start for people to over come.
A turn 2 Lily usually kills the game plan right then and there. With most bogle decks only running 12 creatures, its difficult to get a flow of creatures on board to sac every turn.
Quote from Valanarch »
Actually, from what I've seen, the reason why those two decks don't do well is that they don't have enough room for disruption and just auto-lose to combo.
Mana tithe usually puts people on tilt. Hit an early spell game one and most times all you have to do is leave white mana open and people balk at trying to tap out to hit any thing. It seriously changes how people play for the entire match. I run them main and side them out for game 2. The fear of the tithe usually gets me the match.
I went back and watched AF talking about BB. I dont think BB will come off for some time either. Wotc is very afraid of single deck being dominate, and they fear Fae could be that deck. Personally I know the UB version would not be, but the UBr and UBw are more powerful then the UB versions.
You are assuming the Zoo player will only have 1 kitty. I really think you are underestimating Zoo, then and what it would be if kitty was unbanned. But we will see in a few days if we get a chance to find out. I doubt it comes off, but maybe.
Dont forget, Zoo is the colors of the enchantment hate that would feast on Bogles. Also sliding pyroclasm or some other red sweeper in the side wouldnt be a stretch at all. Bogles only run 12-16 creatures.
Zoo has the ability to fight off most other aggro decks. Adding kitty just gives the deck bigger quicker beats.
Burn still existed when Nacatl was in the format. Soul Sisters and Bogles have a huge advantage against fair decks. Adding Nacatl to the format might make them do better. Hatebears is strong enough in the unfair matchups that I think that it could stick around. And good luck with Boros.
Thats a lot of theory crafting. Burn is T1.5, maybe T2 in the format right now. Its a meta call, can be solid, can be terrible. Bogle is in a bad place at the moment. So much hate and people have learned to play against the deck. Life gain (Soul sisters) is another meta call. Life gain doesnt always get you there. And Hatebears, The deck was built to feast on Jund. Hatebears would probably loose some ground with full aggro Zoo in the format.
So more or less what you are asking for is moving a T1.5-T2 deck, current Zoo, to T1, hurting a couple other decks along the way.
Lets not forget about Affinity. Zoo had good match ups with Affinity pre bans. Would they be the same or worse now? I dont see how they could get much worse.
No changes.
It all depends on what your vision of the format is and would others play said format. When you can have 2 'pro' players write 2 very different articles on what the unbans/bans should be in the format, it just goes to show everyone is looking for something different from the format. (It seems the pros who seem to all enjoy the same format, should be a little closer to the same then random guys/gals on a forum).
A faster, more broken format sounds like fun, until everyone realizes wins are more luck based then skill based. Granted now you can play a T1-T1.5 deck flawlessly and still lose to a random top deck on turn 4. Making the format faster would just increase those odds of losing that way and make your opening hand exponentially more important. How much fun would it be to lose a game or match because you didnt get the right starting hand? How hard would it be to bring newer players into a format like that?
Actually I did. Mox would speed up decks/format. Wotc is struggling to keep decks from winning consistently before turn 4. Adding mox would make it harder. Once one deck got faster because of mox, all decks would have to do the same to keep up. So mox would warp the format.
I thought we had gotten past the comparing of Modern to Legacy.
Just because something is fine in Legacy, does not mean it will be fine in Modern. Modern does not have the policing cards Legacy has so effects will be different and magnified.
No it isnt. It speeds up the format. So much that decks that probably wouldnt run it, have to run it to keep up. Being a turn 4 format, Wotc does not want to give twin the ability to win turn 3 consistently.
He is a player also. He has his own views and bias in writing the article. Like others have said, as soon as he said chrome mox was ok to come off, I stopped taking him serious, and read it just like I would some of the posters on here.
This is exactly why they had to nerf Jund. There can not be a single deck everyone know sis the best deck in the format and thats all anyone plays, at least those who are serious about placing in a tournament. Wotc had to bring the deck back to the field for diversity reasons. If they didnt, they could just rename the format Jund.
Path doesnt stop sac spells. The biggest weakness for bogle.
It doesnt dilute the deck at all. I feel it strengthens it to a degree. Most people play against bogle have a certain mind set when they see the first hexproof dude. Having ways to protect that dude throws them off their game plan. If you figure most bogle decks run 12-16 hexproof dudes and 20-24 auras/enchantments, running 3-4 tithes doesnt hurt the deck at all.
You have to remember bogle runs on one drops. There is like 2 2 drops in the deck. Leaving a mana open is not hurting you in the long run. the tilt factor and caution play the rest of the match works volumes.
I have tithed a lilly turn 2 on jund and had the guy scoop right there.
AF didnt talk any where near as much about Kut as he did BB.
This is partially correct. Certain builds are very bogle dependent. Some 3 color versions run abundant growth. Turn 1 bogle into a turn 2 abundant growth into keen sense and ethereal armor is usually a rough start for people to over come.
A turn 2 Lily usually kills the game plan right then and there. With most bogle decks only running 12 creatures, its difficult to get a flow of creatures on board to sac every turn.
Mana tithe usually puts people on tilt. Hit an early spell game one and most times all you have to do is leave white mana open and people balk at trying to tap out to hit any thing. It seriously changes how people play for the entire match. I run them main and side them out for game 2. The fear of the tithe usually gets me the match.
Zoo has the ability to fight off most other aggro decks. Adding kitty just gives the deck bigger quicker beats.
Thats a lot of theory crafting. Burn is T1.5, maybe T2 in the format right now. Its a meta call, can be solid, can be terrible. Bogle is in a bad place at the moment. So much hate and people have learned to play against the deck. Life gain (Soul sisters) is another meta call. Life gain doesnt always get you there. And Hatebears, The deck was built to feast on Jund. Hatebears would probably loose some ground with full aggro Zoo in the format.
So more or less what you are asking for is moving a T1.5-T2 deck, current Zoo, to T1, hurting a couple other decks along the way.
Lets not forget about Affinity. Zoo had good match ups with Affinity pre bans. Would they be the same or worse now? I dont see how they could get much worse.
Then why has it not placed? Its not like it has not had plenty of chances.