Is it just too expensive to pay 3 up front and 2 more to sacrifice? Seems like it could help turn on Delirium for Traverse and get the last two lands out of the deck for 'Belcher.
No, I get it. It's a very powerful card. I'm just wishing it was as useful (for our deck) early game as it is late game. Heck, I'm still looking for a modern Nature's Lore reprint!
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but triggering Delirium is going to be very difficult for this deck.
Because three mana is more than you want to play for the effect, and by the time you could cast it you often have less than 3 basics left in your deck. I used to run it as a 1-of and even then it was an awful top deck I almost never cast for full value. If you actually test with it you'll come to the same conclusion. A full playset is definitely not where you want to be.
It also means you need to ditch BoP and Arbor Elves, but that's another issue entirely.
While an early and pitifully small example of the new Meta, the top 16 of the SCG Modern Classic in Atlanta this week does not bode well for a more controlling/midrangey format. So if we do cut BoP and Elves, what's a good replacement? More spells, or something like Wild Cantor because we're not expecting recurring value out of it anyway? (But it is another way to help cast Return) Maybe I'm wrong, but I also feel like opponent will be less likely to "bolt the bird" on a cantor.
Also, I've been reading though the Ad Nauseam thread a bit, and what do you guys think about the return of good ol-fashioned Fog in the Sideboard? Ad Nauseam players use fog effects to get one more vital turn against aggro and blank infect's all-in combo turn. I know I ran it when I played this deck more than a year ago, but it seems we've all gone a way from it. It's such a "bad" card that no one expects a fog in response to their alpha strike.
Been heavy testing my list this week. It's doing pretty well. Been playing against a few Bx eldrazi decks and doing well against them. Game 2 and 3 are much easier after sideboarding. I think I'll just have to remove Warping Wail. I haven't played it once. Twin is gone and haven't played any LE decks either so the use it pretty limited for me.
Also been thinking of running a 1 of World Breaker so I can have the chance of use Kozilek's second ability.
I really like the look of this deck. I ran some tests against my buddy's infect deck last night with my Blood-Moon-in-the-main deck list and it. . . did not go well. A sweeper in the main would have been clutch a couple of times, and I really like that we can hit Return off stirrings.
How was the 1-of wastes for you? Did it ever cause problems with an opening hand? You said the Bx Eldrazi decks got better after board, what did you bring in? Blood Moon? Also, did you ever miss having access to Wurmcoil? How did the Sower/Smasher duo work out?
I've also thought about Kozilek's return MB, and, for that reason, about running a 1-of World Breaker to help trigger the second half of the card. I might gin this list up on XMage this weekend and try that out. If so, would you swap out a Hangaback Walker, or one of the other Eldrazi?
As for Endless One, I myself went to Hangarback Walkers instead. Endless wasn't great for me and easy to remove. Hangarback at least can get bigger and make tokens when put to the graveyard. I found this very useful vs aggro decks as I can get more blockers. I run three main right now and it feels right. However I might drop down to two if exiling is a big deal or I decide to up my Wurmcoil Engine or Oblivion Sower count.
Thanks for the feedback. I can definitely see the appeal in a cheap blocker that gives you more free blockers when it dies. Obviously not a win con on his own, but I guess Endless One really isn't either. More of a roadblock to get us to the mid-game.
Also for those that are going more grindy would it be better to add in the eighth land? If you plan on prolonging the game longer you have more time to get lands out. I'm just curious.
I don't think we should be aiming to slow down too much, which is why I'm not all in on the grindy plan. My hope is that if we have a Blood Moon in our opener we can drop it early and slow our opponents down long enough to safely fire off Belcher around turn 5. It's by necessity going to be one turn slower because we took a turn off to drop Moon. With no early moon we still play our A game, which is 'Belch as fast as possible.
People smarter than me keep saying that running Moon to disrupt decks in Modern only works if you also have a clock. Tron and the Eldrazi decks will just eventually cast their spells anyway if we're not also pressuring them, no matter what we're doing to their mana base. Well, I think 'Belcher is a heck of a great clock, and one that can end the game in one turn instead of attacking a bunch with Goyfs.
That's why I look at Blood Moon the same as I do Endless One or Hangarback. A speed bump to keep our opponents occupied long enough to still win with 'Belcher.
For running Blood Moon main, what's the optimal number? If we're not on the Full-bore Magus/Moon/Bridge plan, is a playset required or should we run 3 main to avoid duplicates? Have people been testing with it main? What feels right?
Also, there was a lot of talk a few pages back about Endless One. Obviously, he's just a vanilla beater, but I love that he can be played at any spot on the curve. For the people that played him, was he just too easy to remove? Is anyone still playing it?
I thought the consensus over the last few months was that Batterskull is poorly positioned right now because of Kolaghan's Command. Is that still not the case?
I think both Sower and Coil are great brick walls vs. aggro, and Sower's on-cast trigger can net us some lands to ramp even if he gets removed, unlike Coil and Skull. Could become more relevant as the BW Eldrazi decks pick up steam. They're running 4 Path to Exile. Also, not being an artifact means Sower dodges any anti-artifact hate decks may board in against us.
Fairly certain we can reliably be a fast mana deck with disruption (moon) threats (wurmcoil) and a combo finish (Belcher)
I think so, too. Even more so with Twin leaving the format.
So right now I'm still testing the Main Board Blood Moon, but I have to ask if that's even necessary anymore with twin gone? Can we just stay mono green and be all-in on the combo knowing that comboing out on turns 4 and 5 is no longer a death sentence?
This deck is already well position against the meta with the exception of Twin and Affinity. With the right sideboard cards, we can beat Affinity. Twin on the other hand was almost impossible and really held this deck back. With that threat being removed from the metagame, I firmly believe it is Belcher's time to shine.
So how do we best take advantage of this sea change? Which version best competes in a Twin-less meta?
On that topic, what do the rest of you think about playing Oblivion Sower in the Wurmcoil/Hangaback spot? It's still a six mana threat that is incredibly difficult for other decks to deal with, and should help ramp us AND avoids artifact hate. Am I on to something?
I don't understand how this is true because they will still be playing Basic Lands? Or are there non-Basic Lands in Modern that tap for colorless?
Regardless, I think a Blood Moon plan is called for. So much so that I'm going to be going for a prison deck with a Belcher finish. I have had games where I play a T2 Blood Moon, and the opponent scoops. It's viable.
The Eldrazi decks are not running any Wastes at the moment. Even the Mono-B versions are relying on their Ghost Quarters, Eldrazi Temples, Cavern of Souls, pain lands, and in some cases even Tendo Ice Bridges in order to pay the colorless costs necessary to play the new cards, ie: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Matter Reshaper, activate the ability of Eldrazi Displacer, or cast Warping Wail. Until now, the colorless Eldrazi cards they played could be paid for with mana of any color, which is why they've been able to fight through a Blood Moon pretty successfully.
Now they will actually have to produce colorless mana to cast the new spells, which short of already having a few Scions on the field would be impossible with the non basics they are using under a Blood Moon.
As no fetches will allow them to grab Wastes, their only outs to a blood moon if they need to cast a new Eldrazi is to either Expedition Map for it (slow) or Ghost Quarter their own lands to get one (painful), and in either case they would have to be playing Wastes in the first place. None of the proposed decks I've seen on the various Bx Eldrazi discussions are running Wastes. I think most players feel confident from their success so far that they don't have to worry about blood moon.
I think with the more of the new Eldrazi cards they play, the harder a blood moon hits them.
I actually also play Mono-B Eldrazi deck, and I'm only adding 6 of the new cards (4 thought-knot/2 Warping Wail) to my deck just for this reason.
Well, the more I think about the need to have colorless mana to cast the new Eldrazi, the less excited about it I become. I think it's still possible in a Mono-green shell to run a singleton Waste, fetch it early off land search and make that work, but I'm unsure. (someone please prove me wrong--I'll play it)
It's been a while since I was active on the thread so I went back and read the last 4 pages or so and it looks like there have been a ton of versions of the deck proposed. I like the red splash people have been gravitating to, and it seems like the strongest color combination so far. I know that some people have been running blood moon in their sideboards in the red-splash, but have we tried main-boarding Blood Moon? (I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death and I just haven't gone far enough back to see)
As a format-defining hate card, it hits more of the Modern Metagame than any other card I can think of. Even the new Eldrazi decks, which have been fairly immune to Blood Moon, are going to open themselves up to being more vulnerable to it by trying to cram a lot of the new colorless Eldrazi from OGW in their decks. And even though it doesn't thwart the current decks too much, it does slow them down--maybe enough to belch for the win.
Anyway, here would be my very rough first attempt at an all-in on Blood Moon 'Belcher list:
The object is to maximize the ways to get red online, with Spirit Guide, Utopia Sprawl, Birds, and Safewright Quest giving us 16 ways to get red mana early. With the right opening hands, we should be able to get Blood Moon down turn 2 (and on turn 1 in a Christmas Land scenario). The sideboard is all about maximizing our chances to beat our toughest match-ups in Affinity and Twin. We beat up on a lot of the fair decks, and the combo of Moon and Crumble should take care of the Big mana strategies. Against burn I am counting on blocking their early creatures and landing a wurmcoil, and we are blessed by the fact that we take almost zero damage from lands (it could actually be zero if we ran Cinder Glade over Stomping Ground).
I would love to get feedback or thoughts on this type of Blood Moon-centric list. Again, I apologize if this has been covered to death.
Is it just too expensive to pay 3 up front and 2 more to sacrifice? Seems like it could help turn on Delirium for Traverse and get the last two lands out of the deck for 'Belcher.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but triggering Delirium is going to be very difficult for this deck.
While an early and pitifully small example of the new Meta, the top 16 of the SCG Modern Classic in Atlanta this week does not bode well for a more controlling/midrangey format. So if we do cut BoP and Elves, what's a good replacement? More spells, or something like Wild Cantor because we're not expecting recurring value out of it anyway? (But it is another way to help cast Return) Maybe I'm wrong, but I also feel like opponent will be less likely to "bolt the bird" on a cantor.
Also, I've been reading though the Ad Nauseam thread a bit, and what do you guys think about the return of good ol-fashioned Fog in the Sideboard? Ad Nauseam players use fog effects to get one more vital turn against aggro and blank infect's all-in combo turn. I know I ran it when I played this deck more than a year ago, but it seems we've all gone a way from it. It's such a "bad" card that no one expects a fog in response to their alpha strike.
I really like the look of this deck. I ran some tests against my buddy's infect deck last night with my Blood-Moon-in-the-main deck list and it. . . did not go well. A sweeper in the main would have been clutch a couple of times, and I really like that we can hit Return off stirrings.
How was the 1-of wastes for you? Did it ever cause problems with an opening hand? You said the Bx Eldrazi decks got better after board, what did you bring in? Blood Moon? Also, did you ever miss having access to Wurmcoil? How did the Sower/Smasher duo work out?
I've also thought about Kozilek's return MB, and, for that reason, about running a 1-of World Breaker to help trigger the second half of the card. I might gin this list up on XMage this weekend and try that out. If so, would you swap out a Hangaback Walker, or one of the other Eldrazi?
Thanks for your continued work on this deck!
Thanks for the feedback. I can definitely see the appeal in a cheap blocker that gives you more free blockers when it dies. Obviously not a win con on his own, but I guess Endless One really isn't either. More of a roadblock to get us to the mid-game.
I don't think we should be aiming to slow down too much, which is why I'm not all in on the grindy plan. My hope is that if we have a Blood Moon in our opener we can drop it early and slow our opponents down long enough to safely fire off Belcher around turn 5. It's by necessity going to be one turn slower because we took a turn off to drop Moon. With no early moon we still play our A game, which is 'Belch as fast as possible.
People smarter than me keep saying that running Moon to disrupt decks in Modern only works if you also have a clock. Tron and the Eldrazi decks will just eventually cast their spells anyway if we're not also pressuring them, no matter what we're doing to their mana base. Well, I think 'Belcher is a heck of a great clock, and one that can end the game in one turn instead of attacking a bunch with Goyfs.
That's why I look at Blood Moon the same as I do Endless One or Hangarback. A speed bump to keep our opponents occupied long enough to still win with 'Belcher.
For running Blood Moon main, what's the optimal number? If we're not on the Full-bore Magus/Moon/Bridge plan, is a playset required or should we run 3 main to avoid duplicates? Have people been testing with it main? What feels right?
Also, there was a lot of talk a few pages back about Endless One. Obviously, he's just a vanilla beater, but I love that he can be played at any spot on the curve. For the people that played him, was he just too easy to remove? Is anyone still playing it?
Thanks for your thoughts!
I thought the consensus over the last few months was that Batterskull is poorly positioned right now because of Kolaghan's Command. Is that still not the case?
I think both Sower and Coil are great brick walls vs. aggro, and Sower's on-cast trigger can net us some lands to ramp even if he gets removed, unlike Coil and Skull. Could become more relevant as the BW Eldrazi decks pick up steam. They're running 4 Path to Exile. Also, not being an artifact means Sower dodges any anti-artifact hate decks may board in against us.
I think so, too. Even more so with Twin leaving the format.
Edited to add my latest deck configuration. The sideboard is loaded for bear against the decks that can give us the most trouble:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Spells:28
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Rampant Growth
3 Blood Moon
4 Goblin Charbelcher
6 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
4 Nature's Claim
4 Feed the Clan
3 Creeping Corrosion
4 Crumble to Dust
So right now I'm still testing the Main Board Blood Moon, but I have to ask if that's even necessary anymore with twin gone? Can we just stay mono green and be all-in on the combo knowing that comboing out on turns 4 and 5 is no longer a death sentence?
This deck is already well position against the meta with the exception of Twin and Affinity. With the right sideboard cards, we can beat Affinity. Twin on the other hand was almost impossible and really held this deck back. With that threat being removed from the metagame, I firmly believe it is Belcher's time to shine.
So how do we best take advantage of this sea change? Which version best competes in a Twin-less meta?
On that topic, what do the rest of you think about playing Oblivion Sower in the Wurmcoil/Hangaback spot? It's still a six mana threat that is incredibly difficult for other decks to deal with, and should help ramp us AND avoids artifact hate. Am I on to something?
The Eldrazi decks are not running any Wastes at the moment. Even the Mono-B versions are relying on their Ghost Quarters, Eldrazi Temples, Cavern of Souls, pain lands, and in some cases even Tendo Ice Bridges in order to pay the colorless costs necessary to play the new cards, ie: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Matter Reshaper, activate the ability of Eldrazi Displacer, or cast Warping Wail. Until now, the colorless Eldrazi cards they played could be paid for with mana of any color, which is why they've been able to fight through a Blood Moon pretty successfully.
Now they will actually have to produce colorless mana to cast the new spells, which short of already having a few Scions on the field would be impossible with the non basics they are using under a Blood Moon.
As no fetches will allow them to grab Wastes, their only outs to a blood moon if they need to cast a new Eldrazi is to either Expedition Map for it (slow) or Ghost Quarter their own lands to get one (painful), and in either case they would have to be playing Wastes in the first place. None of the proposed decks I've seen on the various Bx Eldrazi discussions are running Wastes. I think most players feel confident from their success so far that they don't have to worry about blood moon.
I think with the more of the new Eldrazi cards they play, the harder a blood moon hits them.
I actually also play Mono-B Eldrazi deck, and I'm only adding 6 of the new cards (4 thought-knot/2 Warping Wail) to my deck just for this reason.
It's been a while since I was active on the thread so I went back and read the last 4 pages or so and it looks like there have been a ton of versions of the deck proposed. I like the red splash people have been gravitating to, and it seems like the strongest color combination so far. I know that some people have been running blood moon in their sideboards in the red-splash, but have we tried main-boarding Blood Moon? (I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death and I just haven't gone far enough back to see)
As a format-defining hate card, it hits more of the Modern Metagame than any other card I can think of. Even the new Eldrazi decks, which have been fairly immune to Blood Moon, are going to open themselves up to being more vulnerable to it by trying to cram a lot of the new colorless Eldrazi from OGW in their decks. And even though it doesn't thwart the current decks too much, it does slow them down--maybe enough to belch for the win.
Anyway, here would be my very rough first attempt at an all-in on Blood Moon 'Belcher list:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Spells:29
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
1 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Goblin Charbelcher
6 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
4 Nature's Claim
4 Rending Volley
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Crumble to Dust
The object is to maximize the ways to get red online, with Spirit Guide, Utopia Sprawl, Birds, and Safewright Quest giving us 16 ways to get red mana early. With the right opening hands, we should be able to get Blood Moon down turn 2 (and on turn 1 in a Christmas Land scenario). The sideboard is all about maximizing our chances to beat our toughest match-ups in Affinity and Twin. We beat up on a lot of the fair decks, and the combo of Moon and Crumble should take care of the Big mana strategies. Against burn I am counting on blocking their early creatures and landing a wurmcoil, and we are blessed by the fact that we take almost zero damage from lands (it could actually be zero if we ran Cinder Glade over Stomping Ground).
I would love to get feedback or thoughts on this type of Blood Moon-centric list. Again, I apologize if this has been covered to death.
Edit: grammar
Exiles Spellskite, Deceiver Exarch and Pestermite. Oof
Edited to add: If we were looking for a reason to splash colorless to combat Twin and Affinity, this might be the best reason yet.