Most people split them about 50/50, and I think that's sensible. There are things that IoK doesn't get, but two damage per Thoughtseize adds up fast if you're playing a full set. With both in hand you usually play your IoK first, because that takes care of whatever can be played before you get to Thoughtseize whatever the IoK missed. Right now I like two of each in the main plus a Duress or two in the side.
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blood moon is one of the reason i've start thinking about a Bug list with decay in it....
I've tried, and my advice is this: Don't. Abrupt Decay is a lovely card that answers a lot of different things, but in this deck, Blood Moon is not one of them. As long as your mana base both has some number Mutavaults and is deep enough on blue to reach triple for Cryptic, Decay is so hard to cast in this deck without fetch-shocking yourself half to death that you can't run more than about two. It was one of the pulls towards BUG for me, but mine soon ended up in the sideboard. If you find yourself with black and green between your two first lands and one of your two Decays ready in your hand when they cast Blood Moon, you ought to start buying lottery tickets... and even then, on the draw, you're still likely to have fetch-shocked yourself for 4-6 against a red deck and not played anything else on turn two. It's better to just fetch for the basics you need to run your deck.
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I'm currently trying out Tasigur in another deck, and let me just say that while he is incredibly hyped right now, he actually isn't overrated at all. He's the real deal. I would try him out as a two-of in any deck that needs a solid beater, and I believe that this is an accurate description of most Faerie builds, possibly all Goyf-less builds. For those who haven't tried him out yet, do it.
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4 cavern of souls
4 SECLUDED GLEN
4 DARKSLICK SHORES
2 CREEPING TAR PIT
4 POLLUTED DELTA
4 MUTAVAULTS
3 WATERY GRAVE
not including basics
I DONT KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT WATERY GRAVES ITS A LOT OF DAMAGE WITH BITTERBLOSSOM.
I wouldn't run Cavern. We're greedy on color and we're not running enough tribal creatures for the uncounterability to be worth it. I also would never run more than one shockland on any needed color combination. When you have your first Watery Grave out, it's always okay to fetch basics, you generally only need one black unless you're running Liliana or Victim of Night. So with the stuff from your list, I'd play this:
Your next upgrades would be another Tar Pit (probably over an Island), then some number of River of Tears somewhere in the 25 (over either Glen or fetches/shocks).
Edit: Please watch both the caps and the double posting.
Not really related to the current topic, but since it's mentioned, how often do you guys actually do that? I never risk that unless my opponent is completely tapped out of removal colors or it's late in the game and I can afford to trade the Muta for a spell. The potential 2-for-1 with land setback is just devastating. I think that the usefulness of that specific interaction is a bit overrated. Thoughts?
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I don't see why I wouldn't sideboard in Liliana of the Veil instead (unless my wallet has a say in the matter ofc). The one more mana leaves you with a 1 loyalty Liliana that the opponent will have to spend resources on dealing with. She comes down late in the infect matchup, but on the other hand she's good in several other matchups that Wound isn't playable in.
I'd rather have Deathmark than any sacrifice effect against Junk. We don't want them to sac a Spirit and trade our one card for a quarter of theirs. I also think that the green/white clause is almost exclusively a drawback. What decks run green or white creatures that we want to verdict, and also non-green, non-white creatures that we want to bypass?
Are the sac effects that potent/guaranteed against junk with all of the souls running around? Or do you guys have some sweet tech for handling the souls? I currently am playing with the mainboard damnations posted previously but without drawing 1 of those 2 - and having them over-commit, i can't seem to profitably clear them out (especially when my fairy tokens are 1/1s, vendilion only has 1 toughness, etc). Thanks in advance for the thoughts/info!
Scion of Oona helps us win the token war. I don't like running more than one or maybe two because they're only good with an established board, and it can get removed at awkward moments, but it's still useful tech against Souls and other tokens. I wish we had access to Zealous Persecution.
maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't damnation undo our board state? we don't have ANY good topdecks...
You play around it, basically. It's usually not a problem if you get it early and play it on turn four (which against many decks is just early enough). I usually spend the first few turns dicking around with counters, removal and Bitterblossom anyway. There are times where you top deck it later and you don't want to play it because you have an established board, but that probably means that you're ahead. But we don't have the biggest creatures, and unless we have an established Bitterblossom, we certainly don't have the most, so sometimes blowing everything up off of a top decked Damnation is in our favor. Delver and Little Kid Abzan and some other decks can just go too wide for us to handle.
It's still a WIP, but since you ask, this is where I am right now. Cutting the fourth Mutavault is a new thing that I did when I added the Damnations and the Victim, and I'm not sure if it's necessary. I'm also cannot vouch for 26 lands, just trying it out.
After playing BUG for a few months, I can honestly say that I can barely think of any matchup where I'm not glad to see Tarmogoyf. There are so many decks that don't care about my life total because they win big or combo out (Tron, Nykthos, Twin, Storm), and against those decks the 3-4 life points I have to spend to fetch up green don't matter. In nickel and dime matchup where my life does matter, I either get to save at least that many life points either by blocking or forcing them to spend resources on dealing with Goyf, or I win faster. The highest cost of running Tarmogoyf is that you either have to lower your Faerie count or your answer count by those four slots. That and cutting a manland or two.
By recommendation from an experienced local Faeries player I've started trying out two mainboard Damnations over two of the kill spells, and I like them so far. They saved my ass a lot of times at a PPTQ yesterday. I'd rather side them out when I don't need them than the other way around, there are so many decks that fill the board faster than we can compete with. You'd think it was too symmetrical, especially in a list with Goyfs, but they win me games.
Am I the only one who isn't a fan of Cut? In theory I absolutely loved it as a one-of, and I ran one for a while, but I had several games where I needed an early removal spell, wanted to cast it turn two or three, but couldn't and fell behind or even lost because of that. Maybe I had some very bad luck and gave it up too soon.
Speaking of removal, I recently won a game solely because I could cast Dismember through Blood Moon with a blossom and no basics out. Now that's flexibility.
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I've caught the Faeries bug hard, playtesting with it a bunch and trying to figure it out. I'm slowly building it so all my testing comes from random side games and online. I don't have a meta to tune to, so do you have any tips on a solid list that is generic for me to learn with? There is so much diversity in each player's build, I'm quite lost as to how to approach the deck.
This is how you put together your starting point.
25 lands: 4x Darkslick Shores, 4x Secluded Glen, 4x River of Tears, 4x Mutavault, 3-4x Creeping Tar Pit, the rest is basics with emphasis on Island.
7-9 counterspells, distributed pretty evenly between Spell Snare, Mana Leak and Cryptic Command.
4-6 removal spells. Lots of variation between lists here. I recommend two Dismember and 1-2 Disfigure, and the rest should be able to kill big stuff (i.e. "destroy", not "-X/-X". Victim of Night is the most reliable kill, but double black means it can't always get cast on turn two/three.
4-6 disruption spells. This should be an even split between Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek.
13-17 faerie cards. Start off with full sets of Spellstutter and Bitterblossom, 3x Mistbind, and then you season with with 0-4 Scion of Oona and 0-3 Vendilion Clique by preference. Those two last cards are usually where lists start diverging, you should decide for yourself how aggressive/controlling you want to be and make that choice for yourself.
0-3 other creatures, where your choices are Snapcaster Mage, Tasigur and Batterskull. I might start with 0-1 Snapcaster and 2 Tasigur and put the 'skull in the side.
Here's a pretty typical Oona-less maindeck thrown together:
Renwotac can probably fill you in on how to best convert that to an Oona list, but maybe -2 Vendilion Clique -1 Snapcaster +3 Scion of Oona could be a way to go.
Sweepers are build and meta dependent. I run a lot of Scions and those pump my small guys so I don't usually want to sweep the board. If your opponent is getting way more creatures than you than perhaps your counterspell and removal, discard choices should be looked at. The idea of having all that interaction is to NOT fall far behind. Good luck
Definitely agree that sweepers are build and meta dependant. I could actually use a set of eyes on my removal/discard/counter suite if you don't mind, what would you change? Just to get it out of the way, I'm staying away from Cut on purpose, but other than that, I'm open for suggestions. Considering something -> another Dismember, maybe the Blade, but those Wurmcoils give me nightmares.
I don't know that you would need more removal, it seems you devote quite a few slots to removal/counters/discard but I have run 2 Dismember since the beginning and haven't had one game where the life lose seemed at all relevant. I think Dismember is particularly relevant in a 3 color deck as paying the life is a nice option if you are color-screwed. Disfigure is a meta call. A lot of trouble with Wurmcoil? I would think your deck would be well-suited to stop that card. With all those discard spells and 6 maindeck counters to stop it. If it slips through you can always bounce it with Cryptic and recounter, discard it, out tempo it. You can also block it and kill your own token to stop the lifelink and out race it. I can't imagine Wurmcoil should be a huge problem.
I have definitely loved my 1x Dismember so far and I'm pretty set on adding another, it feels like the best kill spell we've got and the option to pay life shouldn't really be considered a downside in any way, it's an option after all. I have had plenty of games where paying 4 life has been the right play, where it either saves you more life in the end or it's in a matchup where your life total doesn't matter. I also love how it's castable through a Blood Moon lock, that actually won me a game last Friday.
About Wurmcoil, I've had too many Tron players spot bluye, see the Mana Leak coming from miles away and wait until they have three extra mana. The fact that they give us extra time is nice, of course, but if you take away the leaks, my mainboard answers to WE is starting to look scarce when Dismember, Disfigure, Throat and Decay doesn't hit ut. Sometimes I really do want to split it to avoid those huge life gains. I should probably take a look at the other spells that doesn't hit it before I hesitate adding another Dismember.
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Sweepers are build and meta dependent. I run a lot of Scions and those pump my small guys so I don't usually want to sweep the board. If your opponent is getting way more creatures than you than perhaps your counterspell and removal, discard choices should be looked at. The idea of having all that interaction is to NOT fall far behind. Good luck
Definitely agree that sweepers are build and meta dependant. I could actually use a set of eyes on my removal/discard/counter suite if you don't mind, what would you change? Just to get it out of the way, I'm staying away from Cut on purpose, but other than that, I'm open for suggestions. Considering something -> another Dismember, maybe the Blade, but those Wurmcoils give me nightmares.
The first thing that sticks out to me as a mistake is the lack of Creeping Tar Pit. I'm slowly starting to realize that it's one of the most important cards in the deck. The unblockability is very important, and far superior to Faerie Conclave's flying because Spirit tokens are everywhere. It also fixes your mana on top of that. In a two color list I would definitely positively never go below three. I'm currently only running two in my three-color list to save some fetch-shocking, but even there I'm considering the third.
I would run very few or zero Polluted Delta and Watery Grave in a two color list when River of Tears and Secluded Glen are available to us. If they are there specifically because of the delve spells and you want to keep it that way, you should run four Deltas and just one Grave, though personally I'd rather cut some delve spells... if that's even necessary, not sure if a set of fetches really have that much of an impact on your delvability. Maybe a cut->dismember. I also like 25 lands.
Your list looks control oriented, and Remand is strictly a tempo card. I haven't tried it myself, so take this as theorycrafting until someone else confirms, but I'd rather stop a spell for good than delay it for a turn.
I have no opinion on Siege, and I think everything else looks good. I'd run the second Thoughtseize over the third IoK, particularly if you cut down on the Watery Graves. I would also jam another Spell Snare or two in there. It looks narrow, but isn't.
One other thing I'm wondering about is the lack of sweepers in this deck. I often find my opponents have way more creatures than me when I'm behind and a sweeper like Damnation, or even Whelming wave would do wonders. However most of the primers and deck lists I've seen don't run them. Is there a reason for this? I've heard of some people playing Damnation, like Osman in his more controlling shell, but it's certainly not as common from what I can tell.
I'm currently about to add some. I really think that they are useful in enough matchups to warrant slots. They feel non-bo-ish because we are also trying to apply pressure with creatures, but there should be plenty of situations where we either start off with it, hold back, play it and then populate the board, or our opponent has an overwhelming board presence and it's worth it for us to reset even though we lose some dudes. Like Osman just wrote, I'll take it over Recall against Affinity in a control build, and I like it against Abzan and Merfolk and some other decks too. The #1 faerie veteran at our LGS actually plays two mainboard without cutting down on creatures, slotting them in over spot removal. Don't know about main even though this is a person whose points of view I regard highly when it comes to this deck, but they feel like they're needed in the 75.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mutavault
1 Watery Grave
5 Island
1 Swamp
Your next upgrades would be another Tar Pit (probably over an Island), then some number of River of Tears somewhere in the 25 (over either Glen or fetches/shocks).
Edit: Please watch both the caps and the double posting.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I'd rather have Deathmark than any sacrifice effect against Junk. We don't want them to sac a Spirit and trade our one card for a quarter of theirs. I also think that the green/white clause is almost exclusively a drawback. What decks run green or white creatures that we want to verdict, and also non-green, non-white creatures that we want to bypass?
Scion of Oona helps us win the token war. I don't like running more than one or maybe two because they're only good with an established board, and it can get removed at awkward moments, but it's still useful tech against Souls and other tokens. I wish we had access to Zealous Persecution.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
It's still a WIP, but since you ask, this is where I am right now. Cutting the fourth Mutavault is a new thing that I did when I added the Damnations and the Victim, and I'm not sure if it's necessary. I'm also cannot vouch for 26 lands, just trying it out.
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Scion of Oona
3 Mistbind Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bitterblossom
1 Victim of Night
1 Dismember
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Secluded Glen
1 River of Tears
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mutavault
1 Swamp
3 Island
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
By recommendation from an experienced local Faeries player I've started trying out two mainboard Damnations over two of the kill spells, and I like them so far. They saved my ass a lot of times at a PPTQ yesterday. I'd rather side them out when I don't need them than the other way around, there are so many decks that fill the board faster than we can compete with. You'd think it was too symmetrical, especially in a list with Goyfs, but they win me games.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Speaking of removal, I recently won a game solely because I could cast Dismember through Blood Moon with a blossom and no basics out. Now that's flexibility.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
25 lands: 4x Darkslick Shores, 4x Secluded Glen, 4x River of Tears, 4x Mutavault, 3-4x Creeping Tar Pit, the rest is basics with emphasis on Island.
7-9 counterspells, distributed pretty evenly between Spell Snare, Mana Leak and Cryptic Command.
4-6 removal spells. Lots of variation between lists here. I recommend two Dismember and 1-2 Disfigure, and the rest should be able to kill big stuff (i.e. "destroy", not "-X/-X". Victim of Night is the most reliable kill, but double black means it can't always get cast on turn two/three.
4-6 disruption spells. This should be an even split between Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek.
13-17 faerie cards. Start off with full sets of Spellstutter and Bitterblossom, 3x Mistbind, and then you season with with 0-4 Scion of Oona and 0-3 Vendilion Clique by preference. Those two last cards are usually where lists start diverging, you should decide for yourself how aggressive/controlling you want to be and make that choice for yourself.
0-3 other creatures, where your choices are Snapcaster Mage, Tasigur and Batterskull. I might start with 0-1 Snapcaster and 2 Tasigur and put the 'skull in the side.
Here's a pretty typical Oona-less maindeck thrown together:
4 Bitterblossom
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Mistbind Clique
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Disfigure
1 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mana Leak
3 Cryptic Command
Renwotac can probably fill you in on how to best convert that to an Oona list, but maybe -2 Vendilion Clique -1 Snapcaster +3 Scion of Oona could be a way to go.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
About Wurmcoil, I've had too many Tron players spot bluye, see the Mana Leak coming from miles away and wait until they have three extra mana. The fact that they give us extra time is nice, of course, but if you take away the leaks, my mainboard answers to WE is starting to look scarce when Dismember, Disfigure, Throat and Decay doesn't hit ut. Sometimes I really do want to split it to avoid those huge life gains. I should probably take a look at the other spells that doesn't hit it before I hesitate adding another Dismember.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
3 Cryptic Command
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Removal (5)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
4x Spellstutter Sprite
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Mistbind Clique
4x Bitterblossom
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Counters (10)
3x Mana Leak
3x Remand
1x Spell Snare
3x Cryptic Command
Removal (5)
1x Victim of Night
1x Smother
1x Dismember
2x Murderous Cut
1x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
Other (1)
1x Monastery Siege
Lands (24)
1x Tectonic Edge
4x Watery Grave
4x Mutavault
4x Polluted Delta
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Faerie Conclave
3x Island
2x Swamp
1x Batterskull
2x Deathmark
2x Disfigure
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Spell Pierce
2x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
The first thing that sticks out to me as a mistake is the lack of Creeping Tar Pit. I'm slowly starting to realize that it's one of the most important cards in the deck. The unblockability is very important, and far superior to Faerie Conclave's flying because Spirit tokens are everywhere. It also fixes your mana on top of that. In a two color list I would definitely positively never go below three. I'm currently only running two in my three-color list to save some fetch-shocking, but even there I'm considering the third.
I would run very few or zero Polluted Delta and Watery Grave in a two color list when River of Tears and Secluded Glen are available to us. If they are there specifically because of the delve spells and you want to keep it that way, you should run four Deltas and just one Grave, though personally I'd rather cut some delve spells... if that's even necessary, not sure if a set of fetches really have that much of an impact on your delvability. Maybe a cut->dismember. I also like 25 lands.
Your list looks control oriented, and Remand is strictly a tempo card. I haven't tried it myself, so take this as theorycrafting until someone else confirms, but I'd rather stop a spell for good than delay it for a turn.
I have no opinion on Siege, and I think everything else looks good. I'd run the second Thoughtseize over the third IoK, particularly if you cut down on the Watery Graves. I would also jam another Spell Snare or two in there. It looks narrow, but isn't.
(edit: card tags)
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'