Still, the vast majority of players people are unable to get into Legacy now. How will they get into Modern when it gets that expensive?
How old is Legacy? Yeah people have been making the same claim as long as Legacy has been a format. Before that it was Vintage or type 1. Nothing has changed, its just the new group of new players realizing the same thing that has been going on for 20 years.
The thing is that Modern was created as an alternative to Legacy. If it gets to Legacy prices, it will defeat the one of the main points of the format.
And as I told you earlier, my budget is very small so I can't afford fetchlands and will never be able to afford fetchlands until I get a fulltime job that pays enough for me to have enough to spend $400 on a single Scadling Tarn (it will get there sooner or later, and most likely sooner). That is most likely going to be at least 5-10 years from now. Also, fetchlands aren't on the Reserved List and they don't have collector value. They shouldn't be that expensive. And as I keep saying, while the manabase is the most expensive part of the game, if it costs $1800 to make a single manabase, how are newer players going to be able to get into the fromat?
$1800 mana bases are all relative. 5 years ago people complained about the cost of the mana base in Standard and Legacy. 10 years ago the people complained about the mana base in Legacy, Standard, and Extended. 15 years ago people complained about the price spikes and the cost to play the game. What you are explaining IS part of the game.
As many have told you, you are going to have to work up to it like a majority of the older player base has.
Magic is a game of many pieces and it takes time and money to get those pieces to play at a certain level. Always has, always will.
The difference is that prices are higher now and they increase fast enough that people have trouble working their way up. It was easier before. Also, I have asked you this question many times. How many newer players do you see working their way up to Legacy nowadays? If Modern gets to that point, it will be just as bad.
Quote from Celstial_Assault »
This, yes, totally agree. If price becomes such a barrier that new players will not enter, that combined with attrition will cause Modern to slowly die as a format.
If we didnt have Legacy and Vintage where people take out second mortgages and trade away expensive things outside of Magic for cards, I might agree with you. Modern could get more expensive as Legacy is right now and people will play.
I will say, Wotc and the player base probably have a different definition of successful. Just because a portion of the player base feels the format is a failure, doesnt mean Wotc or the other parts of the player base will feel the same.
I haven't met any players who actually want the format to be more expensive. Even you seem like you are just accepting that it is going to be expensive, not saying that the format would be better if it is more expensive and less people can play it.
There is no difference between then and now, people actually have more disposable income now then back then, hence one of the reasons the prices are doing now what they are. Thats why I keep telling you its all relative, which it is, you just cant see it how it was, but there were people saying the exact same thing you are now, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and any year in between. Its part of the game. Its not a better or worse thing, its just part of the game and the economy of the game. I have gotten use to it, adapted, and roll with it. Just like any competitive hobby, its pay to play.
Still, the vast majority of players people are unable to get into Legacy now. How will they get into Modern when it gets that expensive?
And as I told you earlier, my budget is very small so I can't afford fetchlands and will never be able to afford fetchlands until I get a fulltime job that pays enough for me to have enough to spend $400 on a single Scadling Tarn (it will get there sooner or later, and most likely sooner). That is most likely going to be at least 5-10 years from now. Also, fetchlands aren't on the Reserved List and they don't have collector value. They shouldn't be that expensive. And as I keep saying, while the manabase is the most expensive part of the game, if it costs $1800 to make a single manabase, how are newer players going to be able to get into the fromat?
$1800 mana bases are all relative. 5 years ago people complained about the cost of the mana base in Standard and Legacy. 10 years ago the people complained about the mana base in Legacy, Standard, and Extended. 15 years ago people complained about the price spikes and the cost to play the game. What you are explaining IS part of the game.
As many have told you, you are going to have to work up to it like a majority of the older player base has.
Magic is a game of many pieces and it takes time and money to get those pieces to play at a certain level. Always has, always will.
The difference is that prices are higher now and they increase fast enough that people have trouble working their way up. It was easier before. Also, I have asked you this question many times. How many newer players do you see working their way up to Legacy nowadays? If Modern gets to that point, it will be just as bad.
Quote from Celstial_Assault »
This, yes, totally agree. If price becomes such a barrier that new players will not enter, that combined with attrition will cause Modern to slowly die as a format.
If we didnt have Legacy and Vintage where people take out second mortgages and trade away expensive things outside of Magic for cards, I might agree with you. Modern could get more expensive as Legacy is right now and people will play.
I will say, Wotc and the player base probably have a different definition of successful. Just because a portion of the player base feels the format is a failure, doesnt mean Wotc or the other parts of the player base will feel the same.
I haven't met any players who actually want the format to be more expensive. Even you seem like you are just accepting that it is going to be expensive, not saying that the format would be better if it is more expensive and less people can play it.
And how are they going to reprint the cards. If they reprint them in Standard, there is a possibility of the Mutavault effect happening (especially with the fetchlands). If they reprint them in a supplemental product that isn't printed enough, the prices will go up. If it has an unlimited print run it will cause the speculators to cry about Chronicles 2.0.
They will have to find a way, otherwise new-blood stops entering the format and with older player attrition the format loses momentum and begins shrinking. I still believe that printing them in a Standard set stabilize the market for the foreseeable future. People will buy ass-loads of packs and people will be able to get some fetches that way, then they can trade them with another player who needs a different fetch. Almost everyone wants Mutavault in their Standard deck, but that will not be the case for Polluted Delta and Arid Mesa (especially without shocks in the format). Some decks will want Delta, some will want Mesa, and people will trade for the one they need. It will not be quite like Mutavault. I anticipate it will still end up being a bit expensive to get a good mana base (like $60 fetches), but for a while at least it will regulate the spikes.
If fetchlands are $60, that is still too high for Standard. Wizards cannot afford to have its main money-maker cost over $500 just for a single 2-color manabase.
What you are talking about has been talked about for years in all formats about the mana bases being the most expensive part of a deck.
$60 fetchs I think are a pipe dream now. I would say $75 or better is going to be the price. By the time they do reprint them, the blue ones will be pushing the upper hundreds. I doubt we see a crash in price down to under $60.
Lesson to be learned, dont trade away your mana base.
And still Bocephus, you don't see a problem with fetchlands becoming as expensive as ABUR duals?
No I dont. I see it as a part of the game. ABUR duals are what fetches are to Modern right now. All formats have there expensive mana bases. To some the price of shocks are too expensive. Just wait till shocks are back up to the $20-$30 range. If Wotc doesnt reprint them again in 5 years, shocks will be up to $50 or better. Mana bases have always been costly. The lands that are going to be cray, and I suspect higher then fetches in the long run, are the role players, Horizon canopies, and the hide away lands. Filters are climbing also.
Like i said to you earlier, we have all been there. It takes time to build a collection. Even on MTGO its going to take you time and money to track down the cards you want/need. Be smaert about your budget and prioritize what you need/want.
And as I told you earlier, my budget is very small so I can't afford fetchlands and will never be able to afford fetchlands until I get a fulltime job that pays enough for me to have enough to spend $400 on a single Scadling Tarn (it will get there sooner or later, and most likely sooner). That is most likely going to be at least 5-10 years from now. Also, fetchlands aren't on the Reserved List and they don't have collector value. They shouldn't be that expensive. And as I keep saying, while the manabase is the most expensive part of the game, if it costs $1800 to make a single manabase, how are newer players going to be able to get into the fromat?
And how are they going to reprint the cards. If they reprint them in Standard, there is a possibility of the Mutavault effect happening (especially with the fetchlands). If they reprint them in a supplemental product that isn't printed enough, the prices will go up. If it has an unlimited print run it will cause the speculators to cry about Chronicles 2.0.
They will have to find a way, otherwise new-blood stops entering the format and with older player attrition the format loses momentum and begins shrinking. I still believe that printing them in a Standard set stabilize the market for the foreseeable future. People will buy ass-loads of packs and people will be able to get some fetches that way, then they can trade them with another player who needs a different fetch. Almost everyone wants Mutavault in their Standard deck, but that will not be the case for Polluted Delta and Arid Mesa (especially without shocks in the format). Some decks will want Delta, some will want Mesa, and people will trade for the one they need. It will not be quite like Mutavault. I anticipate it will still end up being a bit expensive to get a good mana base (like $60 fetches), but for a while at least it will regulate the spikes.
If fetchlands are $60, that is still too high for Standard. Wizards cannot afford to have its main money-maker cost over $500 just for a single 2-color manabase.
What you are talking about has been talked about for years in all formats about the mana bases being the most expensive part of a deck.
$60 fetchs I think are a pipe dream now. I would say $75 or better is going to be the price. By the time they do reprint them, the blue ones will be pushing the upper hundreds. I doubt we see a crash in price down to under $60.
Lesson to be learned, dont trade away your mana base.
And still Bocephus, you don't see a problem with fetchlands becoming as expensive as ABUR duals?
And how are they going to reprint the cards. If they reprint them in Standard, there is a possibility of the Mutavault effect happening (especially with the fetchlands). If they reprint them in a supplemental product that isn't printed enough, the prices will go up. If it has an unlimited print run it will cause the speculators to cry about Chronicles 2.0.
They will have to find a way, otherwise new-blood stops entering the format and with older player attrition the format loses momentum and begins shrinking. I still believe that printing them in a Standard set stabilize the market for the foreseeable future. People will buy ass-loads of packs and people will be able to get some fetches that way, then they can trade them with another player who needs a different fetch. Almost everyone wants Mutavault in their Standard deck, but that will not be the case for Polluted Delta and Arid Mesa (especially without shocks in the format). Some decks will want Delta, some will want Mesa, and people will trade for the one they need. It will not be quite like Mutavault. I anticipate it will still end up being a bit expensive to get a good mana base (like $60 fetches), but for a while at least it will regulate the spikes.
If fetchlands are $60, that is still too high for Standard. Wizards cannot afford to have its main money-maker cost over $500 just for a single 2-color manabase.
The problem is that the demand would still be huge. Prices will keep going up. Newer players will not be able to join the format. As they try to save up to join the format, prices will just keep rising. This is a massive problem for Modern's growth.
This has become a major issue for Modern, and Wizards definitely needs to address this. The question is, will they?
I'd say that the better question is how will they?
Regulate the secondary market. They themselves set how much the price should be. And they should prevent funny business such as SCG setting their buylist higher than other stores' sell price, and then buying out other stores, and then raising the price, and then repeating this process.
I support this idea and have brought it up before.
If SCG alternated between Legacy and Modern through the year, I dont think the demand would be as bad as some are thinking. Remember, not every venue SCG rents to run these events can handle huge numbers. I think you would see attendance maybe a bit higher then Legacy simply because of the availability of Modern cards over Legacy. Richmond was a perfect storm event and the first one after a shake up B&R announcement. I doubt we would see those numbers every week if SCG was running Modern regularly.
The problem is that the demand would still be huge. Prices will keep going up. Newer players will not be able to join the format. As they try to save up to join the format, prices will just keep rising. This is a massive problem for Modern's growth.
This has become a major issue for Modern, and Wizards definitely needs to address this. The question is, will they?
Sure they will...as soon as they can given that printing cards and developing sets takes time. We want cards, and they want our money, so it is pretty reasonable to think that they will find a way to make both parties happy.
And how are they going to reprint the cards. If they reprint them in Standard, there is a possibility of the Mutavault effect happening (especially with the fetchlands). If they reprint them in a supplemental product that isn't printed enough, the prices will go up. If it has an unlimited print run it will cause the speculators to cry about Chronicles 2.0.
If SCG alternated between Legacy and Modern through the year, I dont think the demand would be as bad as some are thinking. Remember, not every venue SCG rents to run these events can handle huge numbers. I think you would see attendance maybe a bit higher then Legacy simply because of the availability of Modern cards over Legacy. Richmond was a perfect storm event and the first one after a shake up B&R announcement. I doubt we would see those numbers every week if SCG was running Modern regularly.
The problem is that the demand would still be huge. Prices will keep going up. Newer players will not be able to join the format. As they try to save up to join the format, prices will just keep rising. This is a massive problem for Modern's growth.
This has become a major issue for Modern, and Wizards definitely needs to address this. The question is, will they?
I'd say that the better question is how will they?
If SCG alternated between Legacy and Modern through the year, I dont think the demand would be as bad as some are thinking. Remember, not every venue SCG rents to run these events can handle huge numbers. I think you would see attendance maybe a bit higher then Legacy simply because of the availability of Modern cards over Legacy. Richmond was a perfect storm event and the first one after a shake up B&R announcement. I doubt we would see those numbers every week if SCG was running Modern regularly.
The problem is that the demand would still be huge. Prices will keep going up. Newer players will not be able to join the format. As they try to save up to join the format, prices will just keep rising. This is a massive problem for Modern's growth.
There are more Legacy staples over seas also, so I would expect the Legacy scene to be better over there.
It will be interesting how SCG handles this. Will we see more SCG Modern events?
Please no. The format is already mostly inaccessible to newer players. Can you imagine the price increase if SCG endorsed Modern?
They do seem interested, as demonstrated by their wilingness to host GP Richmond.
I know. It is just incredibly depressing. If SCG Modern Opens happened, I am almost positive that the tier 1 decks would all be over $2000 (except for Affinity, which would still be over $1000).
I think the most interesting question is what is the future of SCG and Modern based off of the amazing success of Richmond. If SCG decides to divert some (or eventually all) of its resources from Legacy to Modern we would surely see even more Modern growth than we have already. Legacy would die off quickly and this might lower the cost of some Modern staples...unless the Legacy players made the switch to Modern.
Any way you slice it I see Modern as the format of the future for WOTC.
SCG isn't going to give up on Legacy. If anything, they would reduce their support for Standard. Also, if SCG made the switch to Modern, they would be running Modern Opens. This would cause the prices of Modern cards to spike in price enormously. Do you want to see $200 fetchlands and $400 Goyfs? That is what will happen when SCG embraces Modern.
Shuffle it once when you draw. That's legit. Shuffling for the sake of looking like the biggest douche in the world is .... well douchy. Usually I just slap the opponent and they stop. I tried slapping LSV, but it did not work over the internet. LOL
You may be able to get away with that crap at your LGS, but I think it's important for everybody with silly pet peeves to realize that quite a few MTG players practice at least one martial art and aren't afraid to prove it. Get into a pissing match with the wrong guy and you could very quickly regret your inability to ignore an innocent thing.
lol this is a joke, right?
Not at all. Maybe it's just where I live, but I don't have many neckbeards at my LGSs, but instead far more people who look like they should be playing football. And it's fairly well known that a significant number of pros have MMA backgrounds as well. If somebody tried to slap me just for shuffling my hand I'd probably end up breaking his arm.
Whooooaaa. Watch out. It's the cool, tough dude from the popular kids clique.
Aren't people who do Martial Arts usually picked on as kids. Breaking someone's arm is a great way to get a criminal record. I definitely would call the cops and put a restraining order on anyone who did that at a LGS. It must feel awesome to think you can beat up people at a card shop. If you have a negative body image and an inferiority complex maybe MTG isn't for you. Let us regular folks enjoy a card game. MTG is ruined by people like you with rage issues.
To be fair, he was responding to someone saying that they would slap people for shuffling their hands. Breaking that person's arm could be counted as self defense.
Totally agree with this, a tad worried that the "ban pod" has already started, kinda wish the road would be more "let's find a new deck that hoses pod and has game against others" or "hope wizards will print X or Y" or some unbans, I really think this top8 kinda crushes interest in the format a bit(for me atleast), but it's the second big event after last changes, meta will adapt given time I hope. Kinda sad to not have seen more of the fringe decks come inside, what happened to merfolk that was 13-0? Kinda missed a few things here, was pretty pumped to see more variety!
There is a deck like that already. Its tron. I'm happy to see pod do so well since it is such an easy matchup for tron players. It's the combo that stifling the deck so hopefully the amount of combo comes down a bit so Tron can be a big player again.
This. That top 8 is wide open for Tron.
Doesn't Tron have bad Affinity and Splinter Twin matchups?
The thing is that Modern was created as an alternative to Legacy. If it gets to Legacy prices, it will defeat the one of the main points of the format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Still, the vast majority of players people are unable to get into Legacy now. How will they get into Modern when it gets that expensive?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The difference is that prices are higher now and they increase fast enough that people have trouble working their way up. It was easier before. Also, I have asked you this question many times. How many newer players do you see working their way up to Legacy nowadays? If Modern gets to that point, it will be just as bad.
I haven't met any players who actually want the format to be more expensive. Even you seem like you are just accepting that it is going to be expensive, not saying that the format would be better if it is more expensive and less people can play it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That is also the most boring, linear, and skill-less deck in that entire format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
And as I told you earlier, my budget is very small so I can't afford fetchlands and will never be able to afford fetchlands until I get a fulltime job that pays enough for me to have enough to spend $400 on a single Scadling Tarn (it will get there sooner or later, and most likely sooner). That is most likely going to be at least 5-10 years from now. Also, fetchlands aren't on the Reserved List and they don't have collector value. They shouldn't be that expensive. And as I keep saying, while the manabase is the most expensive part of the game, if it costs $1800 to make a single manabase, how are newer players going to be able to get into the fromat?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
And still Bocephus, you don't see a problem with fetchlands becoming as expensive as ABUR duals?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If fetchlands are $60, that is still too high for Standard. Wizards cannot afford to have its main money-maker cost over $500 just for a single 2-color manabase.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I support this idea and have brought it up before.
And how are they going to reprint the cards. If they reprint them in Standard, there is a possibility of the Mutavault effect happening (especially with the fetchlands). If they reprint them in a supplemental product that isn't printed enough, the prices will go up. If it has an unlimited print run it will cause the speculators to cry about Chronicles 2.0.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd say that the better question is how will they?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The problem is that the demand would still be huge. Prices will keep going up. Newer players will not be able to join the format. As they try to save up to join the format, prices will just keep rising. This is a massive problem for Modern's growth.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I know. It is just incredibly depressing. If SCG Modern Opens happened, I am almost positive that the tier 1 decks would all be over $2000 (except for Affinity, which would still be over $1000).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Please no. The format is already mostly inaccessible to newer players. Can you imagine the price increase if SCG endorsed Modern?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
SCG isn't going to give up on Legacy. If anything, they would reduce their support for Standard. Also, if SCG made the switch to Modern, they would be running Modern Opens. This would cause the prices of Modern cards to spike in price enormously. Do you want to see $200 fetchlands and $400 Goyfs? That is what will happen when SCG embraces Modern.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
To be fair, he was responding to someone saying that they would slap people for shuffling their hands. Breaking that person's arm could be counted as self defense.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Doesn't Tron have bad Affinity and Splinter Twin matchups?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.