Lovely to see Pillage back.
I want to thank everyone for contributions to the thread here.
I must admit I slightly migrated towards a GW Arbor Elf/Sakura Tribe Elder ramp version of landkill, similar to RG but with the higher slots containing primal command and acidic slimes, maintaining the white. The red landkill was just less flexible and green gave gas with Tireless Tracker
I still believe RW works as a Moon/Bridge/PW deck, Bridge is so good and walkers are still very powerful, although as with everything its time has passed as the format got quicker and the mana became less fetch heavy.
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At this point in time RW needs something that makes UWx a winnable match and something to make the deck perform faster against the linear decks without too much disadvantage. The pyro prison lists offee a fair bit. The answers are there for some decks. but selection is still awful.
I just can't see it right now.
I guess given where the meta is I would go all out for E bridge and take my chances....
The new cards are ok, I can't see them being what the deck in any of its forms need.
So, I run Pyro Prison and was wondering why bridge doesn't see much use in the RW version. I normally just use mom and pop to blow up bridge if I need to, so maybe that would be a good idea to still keep the Emrakul/Nahiri play on.
The reason is just Bridge/Emmy nonbos.
I personally favour bridge, it can allow you to play Spirit Guides and profit in an attempt to benefit by being hellbent, it can protect PWs I guess K command and abrade are more common now though.
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At this point in time RW needs something that makes UWx a winnable match and something to make the deck perform faster against the linear decks without too much disadvantage. The pyro prison lists offee a fair bit. The answers are there for some decks, but selection is still awful.
I just can't see it right now.
I guess given where the meta is I would go all out for E bridge and take my chances....
The new cards are ok, I can't see them being what the deck in any of its forms need.
Traditionally landkill eschewed moon, it switched on fetches as land sources when they often had nothing to fetch.
The reason landkill is less effective these days is simple, people run fewer fetches that get inhibited by SField. In fact SField has less impact in a few matches than it once did. It was always the dirty secret of the deck, the bit that stole matches.
The rise of fast lands really hurt the deck.
The deck has done well in fetch heavy environs, I can recall lending the deck to a player who top 8d a UK event with 100 odd players with it. I myself took it to a small wmcq semi.
If you are lucky enough to hit the right deck it is still good, but realistically it has hard times against uw control and sometimes even jund, and can be a bit slow against some explosive combos.
I will say thst Temple of triumph has always been the best land in the deck, play 4 for my money every time, over a foundry.
I don't see the need for Dragon's claw either, I think it is by and large redundant in what is a
decent match any way.
Dark dwellers is not so hot now, I would consider running dampening sphere in the board, or an Eidolon of Rhetoric, and Boil at two copies perhaps, cutting Rabblemaster that sucks with Magus.
Rip should be there too, despite the miserable nonbo with Flagstones.
Nodes is hilariously good in Heliod decks that play with enough W permanents. I have seen it in early RW lockdown lists, it rapidly fell from favour as the format crystalised. Conflict with Chalice and an abundance of fast critters in decks like Amulet and Grisselbrand meant that it never took hold.
Very few people take the correct line against it.
One of the nice things is that it can't be cheated with pump effects, the abiliry just hits their other stuff.
What it needs to be better is Orim's Chant type utility cards, sadly no such flexi fog exists in Modern that is in that power level. It can still do stuff, as late as 2015 I played it in tge board, it munched a fair few Nobles even back then...
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Agree on mages and b skulls. Mage needs to be in a real landkill list, and even then most do not use it.
Bskull.... Just can't see it.
ATL is a good card, but probably in a Bridge build.....
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It is a "feel bad" for new players, and indeed some older ones who don't know when to scoop, and most casuals. Most of the older ones well versed in older formats know better, and despite WOTC's attempts at drawing casuals in, where they elevated futility and incompetence to art forms, casuals still are not battering down the door to play Standard. As regards new players, WOTC pursue them like a wolf with muzzle outstretched, to quote Ovid (and we all know what he meant when he said it), and their desire to get them playing Standard overrules all- like a bank offering the best deals to new customers. LD keeps greedy manabases honest and hurts public enemy number one - Tron. It also makes people sequence their spells differently and play around potential draws, on both sides of the board. Legacy players accept it in the form of Wasteland and it makes for a splendid format.
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I think the main is pretty close to standard.
As regards the the board, the only thing that strikes me is 2 Leyline. With 4 you get a 40 pc chance of one in the opener, and the card shines when it is there. If the card is important you need ⁴4, if not then I would say cut it completely and run runed halo as a 2 of.
The format is split between aggro control decks like human and spirits, which are not awful matches, counterspell based board control which is hard, tron which is ok, affinity based decks (there are two archetypes) and some aggressive stuff that acts like combo and can put stupid power on the board, such as hollow one or the new vengevine decks,and good stuff decks as exemplified by mardu pyromancer. There are plenty of others like storm, ironworks combo, scapeshift etc. However, the overwhelming message is rest in peace is golden right now, as is stony silence. I would run 3 of each. I would jeep boil as it us good vs uw control. I think spyglass is probably the easiest cut, it is a reasonable card now but not the powerhouse the others are.
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Given where the deck is now, and the preponderance of good U walkers being made, I wonder what is needed in terms of printings to edge the deck up to the percentage levels of, say, rg land kill or some such.
At the moment I think the main form of the deck would need a walker that is specifically red, or RW. In the first case then effectively what is likely to transpire is that the mono Red Chalice prison lists and Skred plus RW here would share such a beast. In the second it would be shared with Jeskai if it is a good control card.
The most hope would for me lie in new tech being printed for the Bridge form of the decks, because they are harder to slip in to the Jeskai control builds that like full hands. RW landkill simply needs the format to go back to fetches in previous numbers, otherwise the main reason to be in W, Suppression Field, becomes pointless when you can ramp into actual t2 landkill in RG.
For the next year there are some good portents. Suppression Field,is one of the few activated ability taxes and is a potentially powerful card in a fetch meta, seeing play in the fringe Soldier Stompy Legacy deck, was originally a Rav block card. Rtr bought Sphere of Safety to the table, beloved of more fringe Enduring Ideal and Pillow Fort builds. Both are taxing cards from Rav themed blocks, it could be there are more on the way.
Recent sets have had attempts at more answer cards aimed at Modern, which is a shift from the days when Stoddard would happily present the latest "fun" threat destined for the banned list. However, most answers aside from Dampening Sphere and perhaps the Blood Sun/Alpine moon at a push have been disappointing.
So there might be something.
One thing I do not expect are good colour hosers. Their recent attempts are still way short of Boil and Scald, let alone Karma, Perish or Gloom. When protection is off the table as being too good, we can't hope to redress the balance in performance compared to I based decks with new goodies aimed at hosing blue mages.
I am marginally more positive than I have been, but honestly expect nothing much.
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Split card and Leyline/PW interactions weakened the deck marginally but definitely a non zero factor. It was definitely collateral damage, but damage nonetheless. Unbanning cards did not help too, Jace offers more than Nahiri, and Uw always predated on RW, plus BBE resurrected Jund, which also got the Leyline redirect boost. Lots of small things that hurt, making more Jund and Uw x will always hurt prison.
Just general attitude to fetches changed too, fewer fetches, more fast lands made the landkill ish variants worse as well, as well as straight up landkill.
Just no really. The core set is a blow out pretty much. The odd option but nothing major.
Right now for control I would rather play Martyr proc, with its great Humans match, or if I was able to put the reps in, Lantern Control. Jeskai control is probably a better colour combo for Walker decks, especially with Teferi and Jace available. RG landkill is better than RW landkill right now due to pace and BBE; the best thing to be in white for was Suppression Field and there are fewer fetches out there for it to hose (frankly I have a homebrew GW land restricting deck that has been performing better than the RW one that did very well for a couple of years).
In short, the RW prison feels a little obsolete. We have 4 drops galore, we have leylines etc., all the good stuff tools, but we are getting nothing new and don't have a reason not to play 3 colours beyond Blood Moon, which feels weak unless it comes down t2. That means to me that Bridge/SSG is probably the way to go.
I would love to be more positive, but what we really need is the meta to be different, and for WOTC to put more into answers, as their recent attempts are way below the mark.
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I once used Kher keep in a Stax ish list with Culling Scales, a bit similar to the Nodes/Heliod lock in Pillow Fort. The Keep was surprisingly good in that it churned out dudes for the Scales to munch or it made a blocker that was not there when the Scales next went a munching. The deck was not bad to OK, but that aspect worked well. The cist if activation was quite low considering the token was just fed to a Modern smokestack style effect. Sadly Scales and guys like World quelled just don't cut it often enough.
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Okay, I hear you. Does it really come down T1 that regularly?
Turn zero, if you wait till turn one it won't come down at all unless you are cheating.
With 4 in the deck the chances are about 37% t0 Leyline, or so I have always thought, but I bow to the response above at 33%.
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I want to thank everyone for contributions to the thread here.
I must admit I slightly migrated towards a GW Arbor Elf/Sakura Tribe Elder ramp version of landkill, similar to RG but with the higher slots containing primal command and acidic slimes, maintaining the white. The red landkill was just less flexible and green gave gas with Tireless Tracker
I still believe RW works as a Moon/Bridge/PW deck, Bridge is so good and walkers are still very powerful, although as with everything its time has passed as the format got quicker and the mana became less fetch heavy.
The reason is just Bridge/Emmy nonbos.
I personally favour bridge, it can allow you to play Spirit Guides and profit in an attempt to benefit by being hellbent, it can protect PWs I guess K command and abrade are more common now though.
I just can't see it right now.
I guess given where the meta is I would go all out for E bridge and take my chances....
The new cards are ok, I can't see them being what the deck in any of its forms need.
The reason landkill is less effective these days is simple, people run fewer fetches that get inhibited by SField. In fact SField has less impact in a few matches than it once did. It was always the dirty secret of the deck, the bit that stole matches.
The rise of fast lands really hurt the deck.
The deck has done well in fetch heavy environs, I can recall lending the deck to a player who top 8d a UK event with 100 odd players with it. I myself took it to a small wmcq semi.
If you are lucky enough to hit the right deck it is still good, but realistically it has hard times against uw control and sometimes even jund, and can be a bit slow against some explosive combos.
I will say thst Temple of triumph has always been the best land in the deck, play 4 for my money every time, over a foundry.
I don't see the need for Dragon's claw either, I think it is by and large redundant in what is a
decent match any way.
Dark dwellers is not so hot now, I would consider running dampening sphere in the board, or an Eidolon of Rhetoric, and Boil at two copies perhaps, cutting Rabblemaster that sucks with Magus.
Rip should be there too, despite the miserable nonbo with Flagstones.
Very few people take the correct line against it.
One of the nice things is that it can't be cheated with pump effects, the abiliry just hits their other stuff.
What it needs to be better is Orim's Chant type utility cards, sadly no such flexi fog exists in Modern that is in that power level. It can still do stuff, as late as 2015 I played it in tge board, it munched a fair few Nobles even back then...
Bskull.... Just can't see it.
ATL is a good card, but probably in a Bridge build.....
As regards the the board, the only thing that strikes me is 2 Leyline. With 4 you get a 40 pc chance of one in the opener, and the card shines when it is there. If the card is important you need ⁴4, if not then I would say cut it completely and run runed halo as a 2 of.
The format is split between aggro control decks like human and spirits, which are not awful matches, counterspell based board control which is hard, tron which is ok, affinity based decks (there are two archetypes) and some aggressive stuff that acts like combo and can put stupid power on the board, such as hollow one or the new vengevine decks,and good stuff decks as exemplified by mardu pyromancer. There are plenty of others like storm, ironworks combo, scapeshift etc. However, the overwhelming message is rest in peace is golden right now, as is stony silence. I would run 3 of each. I would jeep boil as it us good vs uw control. I think spyglass is probably the easiest cut, it is a reasonable card now but not the powerhouse the others are.
At the moment I think the main form of the deck would need a walker that is specifically red, or RW. In the first case then effectively what is likely to transpire is that the mono Red Chalice prison lists and Skred plus RW here would share such a beast. In the second it would be shared with Jeskai if it is a good control card.
The most hope would for me lie in new tech being printed for the Bridge form of the decks, because they are harder to slip in to the Jeskai control builds that like full hands. RW landkill simply needs the format to go back to fetches in previous numbers, otherwise the main reason to be in W, Suppression Field, becomes pointless when you can ramp into actual t2 landkill in RG.
For the next year there are some good portents. Suppression Field,is one of the few activated ability taxes and is a potentially powerful card in a fetch meta, seeing play in the fringe Soldier Stompy Legacy deck, was originally a Rav block card. Rtr bought Sphere of Safety to the table, beloved of more fringe Enduring Ideal and Pillow Fort builds. Both are taxing cards from Rav themed blocks, it could be there are more on the way.
Recent sets have had attempts at more answer cards aimed at Modern, which is a shift from the days when Stoddard would happily present the latest "fun" threat destined for the banned list. However, most answers aside from Dampening Sphere and perhaps the Blood Sun/Alpine moon at a push have been disappointing.
So there might be something.
One thing I do not expect are good colour hosers. Their recent attempts are still way short of Boil and Scald, let alone Karma, Perish or Gloom. When protection is off the table as being too good, we can't hope to redress the balance in performance compared to I based decks with new goodies aimed at hosing blue mages.
I am marginally more positive than I have been, but honestly expect nothing much.
Just general attitude to fetches changed too, fewer fetches, more fast lands made the landkill ish variants worse as well, as well as straight up landkill.
Right now for control I would rather play Martyr proc, with its great Humans match, or if I was able to put the reps in, Lantern Control. Jeskai control is probably a better colour combo for Walker decks, especially with Teferi and Jace available. RG landkill is better than RW landkill right now due to pace and BBE; the best thing to be in white for was Suppression Field and there are fewer fetches out there for it to hose (frankly I have a homebrew GW land restricting deck that has been performing better than the RW one that did very well for a couple of years).
In short, the RW prison feels a little obsolete. We have 4 drops galore, we have leylines etc., all the good stuff tools, but we are getting nothing new and don't have a reason not to play 3 colours beyond Blood Moon, which feels weak unless it comes down t2. That means to me that Bridge/SSG is probably the way to go.
I would love to be more positive, but what we really need is the meta to be different, and for WOTC to put more into answers, as their recent attempts are way below the mark.
Turn zero, if you wait till turn one it won't come down at all unless you are cheating.
With 4 in the deck the chances are about 37% t0 Leyline, or so I have always thought, but I bow to the response above at 33%.