When I played Mono Green Infect (around Magnus's heyday), I loved seeing an Urza land turn one. I was actually free to go nuts and win by turn three instead of being worried about Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, etc. ruining my day. I don't remember siding anything in the match-up. Maybe I did on the play, but it doesn't take much. Win fast, Vines your opponent's Karn exile ability, play Mutagenic Growth to counter Pyroclasm, and get around Wurmcoil with Apostle's Blessing or Inkmoth Nexus.
And now that it is tier 3 " deck creation" under this forums sticky post for what defines tier 2 is not met. But that is a technicality. Is even more so.
Mtgo-stats it. Google it. Look it up. Read something. This forum requires 17 dailies at 4-0 or 3-1 in the past three months to be established. http://www.mtgo-stats.com/cards/Cathedral of War
Look it up. Read. Google it. Google it.
These are only the Cathedral lists.. There are many more UG and BUG. There are 20 results in June and July.
The Twin match-up is so much harder than the UWR control match-up because they actually have some inevitability and clock. UWR simply takes too long to win.
And if you don't get ELectrolyzed or Lightning Helixed, then I can only assume you're playing like an idiot or your opponent is playing like an idiot and instead of targeting your dome with these spells, he is discarding them. There is a period for a lot of decks against UWR where you let them get to 8 cards and discard or use resources on you before proceeding with the game plan.
So the only thing we can gather from this argument is that horrible_at_magic is appropriately named and can't win a good match-up.
Here are some assertions he's making:
1) Infect players don't know how to play around Cryptic Command.
-False. In fact, from this quote:
Does he not know then to lightning helix, how tap down the creatures that you're swinging with as a result of pump spells being played?
He doesn't even recognize that Might of Old Krosa has been dropped from most lists, and Cryptic Command tap->Draw is a pretty bad play after attackers are being declared, when pump spells are being played (during declare blockers step).
2) Fetchlands are required for a high-level deck.
he is doing something very wrong if he can't beat a tier 3 fringe budget deck with a protour level control deck. That doesn't even run fetchlands.
Take that, Tron, Affinity, and Burn.
3) He can't win a match-up, therefore the match-up is bad.
Let's nevermind the fact that he continuously trolls Infect threads, acknowledging that he plays and has played the deck, and continued to say how bad it is.
Ok so here's what I think happened: he cashed out of the deck before it blew up, and he's regretting it. And if he can't have any fun, no one can.
Terrible at reading, horrendous at logic, horrible at Magic. No Googling required. It's all here.
The UWR matchup is favorable for the Infect player. I have some trouble against the Geist lists, but because they are all so slow to win, you can accumulate a critical mass of protection in hand and build up mana. Let them Electrolyze and Helix/Bolt you a couple of times before laying down your win condition and letting them have it. That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it, but it works for me.
He is unlikely to miss land drops, and if you both go to high land count he can find tectonic edge for your nexus. His spells are simply more mana-efficient - on the turn you decide to go all in you need 2 mana to activate nexus and attack, then one to pump, and one to give protection from bolt - and then he could have mana leak or spell pierce or even dispel postboard. I'm not even talking about spellskite here. If you dont have perfect hand of, like, groundswell plus 2 mutagenic plus 2 guttural response with nexus and cathedral on board - you will lose the counter war. And if you plan to let them counter your spells and just play another - sometimes you are low on green sources - you will need, like, four, and 3 colorless lands is not that unusual for this deck.
Hi my name is experience, and your paragraph is theory-crafting, combining ideal situations for the opponent and unfortunate situations for us. I'm undefeated against UWR control in dailies and queues. I lost once in a queue to a list with Geist, but I've also beaten the lists many times as well. I don't know what ungodly stack you have in mind for the requirements to go off, but really the only spell that matters is the final Vines of Vastwood after lethal has been established. Yeah, I've been blown out before, but only when I calculated that I had to win because I was going to lose next turn, and never more than once in a match.
The UWR matchup is favorable for the Infect player. I have some trouble against the Geist lists, but because they are all so slow to win, you can accumulate a critical mass of protection in hand and build up mana. Let them Electrolyze and Helix/Bolt you a couple of times before laying down your win condition and letting them have it. That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it, but it works for me.
That is if I even win long Grindy matches. The chances of infect winning past turn 4 plummet to near 0 if your opponent does not misplay. Half the time the infect player is the one that misplays. I know I make play mistakes every game everyday..
Sylvan Scrying and Glistener Elf are your win-cons. Ichorclaw Myr is a distant back-up. Scrying is, in my opinion, indisputable. It definitely is "slower," but only in a vacuum. Inkmoth Nexus activates only when you're ready to protect, and saving your creature while killing your opponent is "faster" than running them out there to die. Also Inkmoth Nexus has flying, which makes the kill faster because it requires less.
I must have developed a playstyle with the Sylvan Scrying, Noble Hierarch list that is totally inappropriate for Magnus and Waterd's lists, or the Modern community online must have learned how to respond to it (and perhaps that's why I see Fosprey piloting tokens :)). I can't do anything with a list under $50, even though I see that they 4-0 in the midst of highly reactive lists like deluxeicoff's. I wonder what on earth they're doing differently.
Anyway, I'm bookmarking this sweet idea, though I think I'll still resort back to my old trusty. This deck has more creatures, Aether Vial with a mono-green list, and Savage Summoning main. The Vial and Summoning allow me to play a "haste" creature and get around a lot of hate. Also they prevent counters from being effective hate.
Gosh I hope this works. I really want to build an infect list in paper Magic, and I know the list I keep doing well with won't be an option on my budget.
Oh man, I'm embarrassed. I've played a lot of 2-mans with Hunt the Hunter in my side as a 4-of only to find it ONLY works with my Glistener Elf and only against Melira. Terrible card. I had it in my 60 game 2 against Burn. Embarrassing. Read cards, all.
Don't be overconfident with Storm. They have turn 3 kills often like we do, and they bring in hate as well. I'm 50/50 against them.
Ok so I can't win without Noble Hierarchs anymore, which stinks because I hoped to build this with paper. The list I posted above with Hunt the Hunters in the side has gone 2-0 against burn in 2 two-man events. It's good removal against Burn and Melira! Yay!
Also I enjoy the Guttural Response tech from Magnus. I'm just testing things in 2-mans, but I mix it up with 2 Guttural Response, 2 Savage Summoning and 4 Savage Summoning. Also his Sylvan Scrying tech was so good it went straight into my main. It's an infect creature (uncounterable against most opponents), it's protection, it's pump, it's awesome.
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Mtgo-stats it. Google it. Look it up. Read something. This forum requires 17 dailies at 4-0 or 3-1 in the past three months to be established.
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/cards/Cathedral of War
Look it up. Read. Google it. Google it.
These are only the Cathedral lists.. There are many more UG and BUG. There are 20 results in June and July.
And if you don't get ELectrolyzed or Lightning Helixed, then I can only assume you're playing like an idiot or your opponent is playing like an idiot and instead of targeting your dome with these spells, he is discarding them. There is a period for a lot of decks against UWR where you let them get to 8 cards and discard or use resources on you before proceeding with the game plan.
Here are some assertions he's making:
1) Infect players don't know how to play around Cryptic Command.
-False. In fact, from this quote:
He doesn't even recognize that Might of Old Krosa has been dropped from most lists, and Cryptic Command tap->Draw is a pretty bad play after attackers are being declared, when pump spells are being played (during declare blockers step).
2) Fetchlands are required for a high-level deck.
Take that, Tron, Affinity, and Burn.
3) He can't win a match-up, therefore the match-up is bad.
Let's nevermind the fact that he continuously trolls Infect threads, acknowledging that he plays and has played the deck, and continued to say how bad it is.
Ok so here's what I think happened: he cashed out of the deck before it blew up, and he's regretting it. And if he can't have any fun, no one can.
Terrible at reading, horrendous at logic, horrible at Magic. No Googling required. It's all here.
Anyway, I'm bookmarking this sweet idea, though I think I'll still resort back to my old trusty. This deck has more creatures, Aether Vial with a mono-green list, and Savage Summoning main. The Vial and Summoning allow me to play a "haste" creature and get around a lot of hate. Also they prevent counters from being effective hate.
Gosh I hope this works. I really want to build an infect list in paper Magic, and I know the list I keep doing well with won't be an option on my budget.
Ok so I can't win without Noble Hierarchs anymore, which stinks because I hoped to build this with paper. The list I posted above with Hunt the Hunters in the side has gone 2-0 against burn in 2 two-man events. It's good removal against Burn and Melira! Yay!
Also I enjoy the Guttural Response tech from Magnus. I'm just testing things in 2-mans, but I mix it up with 2 Guttural Response, 2 Savage Summoning and 4 Savage Summoning. Also his Sylvan Scrying tech was so good it went straight into my main. It's an infect creature (uncounterable against most opponents), it's protection, it's pump, it's awesome.