It's very slow. You need at least five mana in play, which is quite difficult and not how you want an average game to go anyway. Dryad Arbor is nice because it doesn't require the activation each turn, can be fetched and is better against Liliana.
What do people think of Dromoka's Command? I'm already splashing white for a maindeck Path to Exile and a couple of SB cards, and I figured that Command might be just as good in Infect as it has been in the CoCo decks. Thoughts?
Of note: Stops damage-based sweepers and removal, and the fight mode is solid with the wither effect if you're desperate.
Ha. Well, this is more fun! Thanks for pointing it out!
I presume you are being facetious with the comment of Vapor Snag being superior to Unsummon for the purposes of Infect. The regular damage drawback of taking 1 damage to yourself by bouncing your own creature far outweighs the possibility of bouncing your opponent's creature and having that 1 extra regular damage make a difference. Now if that was "take 1 poison counter..."
With this idea in mind I may brew something up with eliminating Wild Defiance altogether and throwing Monastery Siege in the sideboard. I see Mutagenic Growth and Monastery Siege being swappable in that regard. G1 go /yoloswag and race for Infect damage. G2 and G3 when the match slows down (assuming you aren't facing another fast combo deck), take out the Mutagenic Growths and put in the CA engine or protection option that Siege provides. Siege would be a great replacement to Mutagenic in basically any matchup involving red or a midrange deck.
I kill with damage a reasonable amount of the time, so for me I think the 1 life may matter a nonzero amount of the time. Whatever, man. As for Siege, I have been really liking it in my sideboard. Very powerful against all manner of decks (not Affinity, but most everything else).
Anyone have any additional insight regarding their playtesting of Serum Visions, mainboard Spell Pierce and/or Dismember, or any other techy cards MB or SB?
Maindeck Spell Pierce and removal spell of choice is absolutely correct. Not sure how techy Sylvan Scrying or Vendilion Clique are, but both have been pretty solid for me when I drew them.
Epic Confrontation sounds just worse than anything we could be playing in our maindeck. It's more or less only good to kill cheap creatures (which Dismember does) or alongside pump spells (which is less consistent and also probably worse than just killing them). Hunt the Hunter sounds like it could be well positioned if we see a bit more CoCo.
I don't really want Path and Pierce vs. the same decks, though. Since they're both one-ofs, I think it's relatively safe to play both in the main. Postboard I can just take out the one that's bad in the matchup. Casting Path hasn't been difficult yet, but I'll continue to test with it to see if it's a problem too often.
As for Dismember, I found that I strongly disliked it against the Abzan Company decks. Their clock became a real issue for me if I had to cast even one Dismember, and two is just really hard on my life total. Fetch-shocking once or just having a Hierarch in play is a great deal easier on my life, and I find killing Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence outright to be very important.
Against BGx, their Tarmogoyfs are very frequently 5/6 against us because we play artifacts and enchantments (plus the occasional dead Liliana from their side), and Dismember just wasn't doing it for me.
Glistener Elf actually fits better than Plague Stinger in the second scenario, since you can play it with one mana up and protect it a turn earlier. I'm just looking for a list which allows me to play an Infecter with one mana open as early and as frequently as possible.
Maybe playing a couple of Birds of Paradise will be helpful. You can stick an Elf with double protection or a two-drop with protection up more consistently. Birds also facilitates the BUG shell a bit better.
I figured I'd post my current decklist here, for the betterment of all (and if you've got some feedback and potential changes given the metagame I'd love to hear them):
I'm currently splashing white just for Path to Exile, because I want the extra versatility but don't think a semi-transformational sideboard is at all worth the cost in slots.
Things I'm iffy about on the list:
# Counterspells - Anywhere from 4-6 could be correct.
# Removal - 2 or 3 Paths?
# Wild Defiance - I have been liking 2, but 3 seems pretty nice to have access to.
What do people think of playing Blight Mamba as sideboard tech of choice against BGx and other heavy removal decks? It's worse against Liliana than Carrion Call, but topdecking it after your opponent grinds you out of cards provides a very hard-to-kill threat that will realistically require 2 removal spells, possibly more if you untap with it. It can chump block Tarmogoyf for days (or until the Goyf dies), and I've been fairly happy with it when I've drawn it in some testing.
Not sure that it's better than Scrying for another Inkmoth or casting Carrion Call, though. Has anyone else tried Mamba out?
Re. your other points:
-Maindeck Spell Pierce: Right now I am playtesting a 1:1 split of Spell Pierce and Dismember mainboard and liking it. Pierce is incredibly relevant in the format and being a 1 mana counter is great for a deck that hinges on 1-drops and early plays. Dismember is basically to kill off Melira and opposing Spellskites. I think if you ran Wild Defiance mainboard then the relevance of Dismember drops significantly (i.e.: WD is an "out" of sorts to Melira and Spellskite) such that you could run 2x Pierce. I personally would probably not considering doing more than 2 Pierce mainboard (you don't want to draw multiples) but hey, if someone wants to playtest 2-4 MB then I am all for hearing about it.
-1 mana counters: Pretty much essential. Our clock is very fast and we want to be able to play a threat and either protect it or stop what our opponent is doing for a turn. For example, in the past tournament I played in, I faced against Grishoalbrand. I was able to drop a Glistener Elf, then the following turn counter the Goryo's Vengeance (which it was revealed my opponent could have easily comboed out), then with a Gitaxian Probe I knew the path was clear to go for a Turn 3 kill.
-Re. splashing a 3rd color: I am intrigued by this concept but would like to see some playtesting. Here are my initial thoughts:
White: Pros: Can play some very hateful SB cards (Stony Silence, Rest in Piece). Can use Noble Hierarch dork mana to cast spells very efficiently (including Apostle's Blessing) but also things like Path to Exile, which is relevant with CoCo in the format. Cons: For as powerful as some of the cards are, is it really necessary to muck up the mana base? Apostle's Blessing is already easy to cast, Dismember may just be a competent replacement to Path to Exile, and the deck already has good SB hate cards (e.g., Hurkyl's Recall over Stony Silence). Assessment: Unsure at this time, leaning towards no.
Black: Pros: Access to discard and Abrupt Decay, as well as Plague Stinger is you really want more evasive infect creatures. Cons: Harder to cast BUG colors since it does not pair well with Noble Hierarch. Assessment: Intriguing. I don't know if discard is needed with reactive counters. However, Abrupt Decay seems ridiculously relevant to kill off Melira, Spellskites, Twin creatures, and the like. If I were to splash black I would probably splash the removal but not the discard (due to having blue counters).
Red: Unsure. Normally Lightning Bolt is a gimme card but in a deck that wins through Infect damage this may not be an auto-include. Assault Strobe seems cool. Haven't taken the time to consider what red offers in the SB. May be difficult to cast Red due to Noble Hierarch.
I think of the possible color combinations, BUG may be superior to Bant or Temur colors.
I was on Pierce and Dismember in the main as well, but for me the four life off of Dismember really added up. Having a maindeck way to answer frequent 5/6 Goyfs has been feeling pretty great.
I was more surprised that Collins had seven one-mana counters. I have five in my 75 (and four might be the right number), and 4 Dispel + 3 Spell Pierce sounds like a bit too much.
---------
How many Wild Defiance are you guys playing in your 75? Two have been enough for me, but I've seen lots of lists with three and I'd like to know if potential clunkiness is outweighed by the power.
Henning has all four Ichorclaw Myr in the main, which is rather odd considering that he's also playing an Overgrown Tomb to cast Abrupt Decay out of the sideboard. The rest of his list is rather stock, with notable choices being Rancor, Ranger's Guile in the sideboard and all four Spell Pierce in the sideboard.
Splashing a color just for sideboard cards/removal. I think the best would be white for Path, Stony Silence and Rest in Peace among others, but red for Grudge and black for Decay/Dismember/Thoughtseize like Henning did seem reasonable as well.
Got to playtest against Abzan Company and Burn last night with some of these changes. My comments:
-Monastery Siege is incredible against Burn. I was able to stall out my opponent who had explosive opening T1/2 plays. However, I do wonder if in the other 90% of matches Wild Defiance isn't better. Unfortunately I never drew Monastery Siege against Abzan Company to find out.
-I don't know whether having 1x or 2x Spellskite MB makes a difference. I think 1x mainboard Spellskite is necessary, 2x is fine, and then having 1-3x SB (for a total of 3-4x main plus side).
-2x mainboard Spell Pierce turned out to be quite lovely - in one game, I was able to surprise my opponent who was going to Chord of Calling in combat into Melira - I cast Spell Pierce - poison damage gets through FTW. However, I may be inclined to do a 1/1 mainboard split of Spell Pierce and Dismember just to have more options available G1, and then bring in more SB Spell Pierce or Dismember as needed.
-Running 2x Rancor mainboard (a list that included Monastery Siege but no Wild Defiance) was very strong, particularly for Glistener Elf, which got me 2 massive early wins (Rancor+pump gets through multiple blockers and usually is enough damage for the kill). However, I don't know whether Rancor is better than Distortion Strike. In one of the games I had a Pendelhaven feebly sitting there and unable to pump my Infect creature since he was Rancor'ed. I think the argument between 2x Rancor versus 2x Distortion Strike may come down to personal preference.
-I was not able to use/cast Rapid Hybridization yet so I have no comment on the card.
-I have not had an opportunity to playtest Serum Visions yet.
I agree with pretty much all of your sentiment here. I haven't played Rancor in a long while, and that's mainly because it was best with Ichorclaw Myr. Without that, I think Strike is just the better card because it lets you get in a couple of hits without additional pump to stop your Elf from dying.
I don't think Rapid Hybridization is that great unless you are playing multiple Strikes. Splashing for Path or just plain old Dismember is just fine for me.
I wouldn't bring in Nature's Claim against Burn. That's way too reactive, especially since it's for a card they won't have in more than 50% of the games you play. It's more of a race than a battle for positioning.
I totally agree with Spell Pierce in the main, I was on Dispel for a while (mostly because my games often go to a point where Pierce is dead) but now that I think about it you're absolutely correct.
Regarding Gitaxian Probe, I have to say I disagree. The whole "worthless if you're experienced enough" idea is pretty misguided in my mind, because even if you're the best player in the world you won't have perfect information and your opponents can always be playing all sorts of weird stuff. I feel alright conceding the burn matchup game 1, especially since my builds have access to Dispel postboard.
Finally, about your sideboard: I'm interested in your choice to include no Dispel. I like having 4 counterspells in the 75, especially given the likely rise of Twin following the PT. I'd also say your Dryad Arbor should have been in the main, but you knew that already.
Golgari charm seems to be a card that we could get some mileage out of. Thoughts???
I think I'd much rather play Nature's Claim, assuming you want to kill enchantments. As for the regeneration part, I'd rather just have one-mana counterspells (Stubborn Denial could be interesting to try). I don't know that -1/-1 would be too useful for us, especially since it kills our guys too.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
Of note: Stops damage-based sweepers and removal, and the fight mode is solid with the wither effect if you're desperate.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
I kill with damage a reasonable amount of the time, so for me I think the 1 life may matter a nonzero amount of the time. Whatever, man. As for Siege, I have been really liking it in my sideboard. Very powerful against all manner of decks (not Affinity, but most everything else).
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
Maindeck Spell Pierce and removal spell of choice is absolutely correct. Not sure how techy Sylvan Scrying or Vendilion Clique are, but both have been pretty solid for me when I drew them.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
As for Dismember, I found that I strongly disliked it against the Abzan Company decks. Their clock became a real issue for me if I had to cast even one Dismember, and two is just really hard on my life total. Fetch-shocking once or just having a Hierarch in play is a great deal easier on my life, and I find killing Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence outright to be very important.
Against BGx, their Tarmogoyfs are very frequently 5/6 against us because we play artifacts and enchantments (plus the occasional dead Liliana from their side), and Dismember just wasn't doing it for me.
Maybe playing a couple of Birds of Paradise will be helpful. You can stick an Elf with double protection or a two-drop with protection up more consistently. Birds also facilitates the BUG shell a bit better.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
4x Blighted Agent
4x Glistener Elf
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Spellskite
Instants (19)
2x Apostle's Blessing
3x Become Immense
2x Groundswell
2x Might of Old Krosa
4x Mutagenic Growth
1x Path to Exile
1x Spell Pierce
4x Vines of Vastwood
2x Distortion Strike
4x Gitaxian Probe
Enchantments (1)
1x Wild Defiance
Lands (20)
2x Breeding Pool
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Pendelhaven
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
1x Carrion Call
3x Dispel
3x Nature's Claim
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Path to Exile
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spellskite
1x Sylvan Scrying
2x Twisted Image
1x Wild Defiance
I'm currently splashing white just for Path to Exile, because I want the extra versatility but don't think a semi-transformational sideboard is at all worth the cost in slots.
Things I'm iffy about on the list:
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
Not sure that it's better than Scrying for another Inkmoth or casting Carrion Call, though. Has anyone else tried Mamba out?
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
I was on Pierce and Dismember in the main as well, but for me the four life off of Dismember really added up. Having a maindeck way to answer frequent 5/6 Goyfs has been feeling pretty great.
I was more surprised that Collins had seven one-mana counters. I have five in my 75 (and four might be the right number), and 4 Dispel + 3 Spell Pierce sounds like a bit too much.
---------
How many Wild Defiance are you guys playing in your 75? Two have been enough for me, but I've seen lots of lists with three and I'd like to know if potential clunkiness is outweighed by the power.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
Bryan Henning's Infect
Jason Collins's Infect
Nan Johnson's Infect
Henning has all four Ichorclaw Myr in the main, which is rather odd considering that he's also playing an Overgrown Tomb to cast Abrupt Decay out of the sideboard. The rest of his list is rather stock, with notable choices being Rancor, Ranger's Guile in the sideboard and all four Spell Pierce in the sideboard.
Collins has three Spell Pierce in his maindeck, as well as four Dispel in the board and only one Become Immense.
Johnson has a Sylvan Scrying in the main, and that's mostly it as far as interesting things go.
What I think is worth exploring:
Opinions?
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
I agree with pretty much all of your sentiment here. I haven't played Rancor in a long while, and that's mainly because it was best with Ichorclaw Myr. Without that, I think Strike is just the better card because it lets you get in a couple of hits without additional pump to stop your Elf from dying.
I don't think Rapid Hybridization is that great unless you are playing multiple Strikes. Splashing for Path or just plain old Dismember is just fine for me.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
Regarding Gitaxian Probe, I have to say I disagree. The whole "worthless if you're experienced enough" idea is pretty misguided in my mind, because even if you're the best player in the world you won't have perfect information and your opponents can always be playing all sorts of weird stuff. I feel alright conceding the burn matchup game 1, especially since my builds have access to Dispel postboard.
Finally, about your sideboard: I'm interested in your choice to include no Dispel. I like having 4 counterspells in the 75, especially given the likely rise of Twin following the PT. I'd also say your Dryad Arbor should have been in the main, but you knew that already.
Sweet deck, congratulations on the finish!
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU
I think I'd much rather play Nature's Claim, assuming you want to kill enchantments. As for the regeneration part, I'd rather just have one-mana counterspells (Stubborn Denial could be interesting to try). I don't know that -1/-1 would be too useful for us, especially since it kills our guys too.
RUGTemur ScapeshiftGUR
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
UGUG InfectGU