I would switch Vedalken Engineer for another Sculptor. Sculptor has the potential to provide more than two mana's worth over one turn, and he has pseydo-haste, which is critical in a Lightning Bolt world.
I feel like if you don't play it turn 1 it's going to be a liability and then it also sometimes will interfere with Thoughtseize turn 1. But free scry is also nothing to scoff at...
What do y'all think about Slaughter Pact instead of Vendetta? It misses the same targets as Vendetta and has no life loss. You also don't need to worry about what land you leave up and being able to pay for it after seems convenient in a deck that likes to tap all of it's mana every turn. It also has the upside of not tipping off your opponent by leaving a land untapped every turn.
I personally like Vendetta since I find the prospect of spending a bunch of mana on one turn to be less ideal than a teensy bit over several. There's also a lot of mind games that go along with open mana. If nothing else, it's certainly worth testing though, and I could reasonably see a split, or maybe wiggling them in over Dismember in the side.
Brad nelson used merfolk looter in his standard deck just to get more draw off a blue creature.
I've actually thought about Looter, but we need proper draw, not just card selection. We aren't like Pod or Twin where we want specific cards (well, other than Architect), we want critical mass. We already have plenty of tutoring anyway.
Courier's Capsule is a UUDivination with Architect in play, a proper Divination with Sculptor or Engineer, and potentially a measely 1U with Engineer and another creature, so I think it might be a contender for the Thoughtcast slot given it's cheaper on an empty board. If you run lot of sacrifice effects like Phyrexia's Core, then Ichor Wellspring is awesome, but otherwise we're really only left with Howling Mine type symmetrical effects for cheap, artifact-based card draw. It's a little disappointing.
Ok lets give this draka mystic thing a try. I realised I could use it to immidately draw cards put on top with academy ruins which is sweet.
The problem with both my lists is that niether has card draw or deck manipulation and only thoughtsieze for interaction. I like that thoughseize deals with anything but proactively.
That's really what's holding this deck back. If we had an artifact Scroll Thief or something similar, the lack of interaction wouldn't even be as big a deal since we could just overrun opponents with fat artifacts or Architect pumps.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
Alright you sold me on Vendetta, I'll take it for a spin.
I've kept the Dismembers in the board just in case I'm playing versus Black, but beyond that, I've never really had an issue, so I'm a huge proponent. For three-color decks or decks with big color requirements, Dismember is much easier on the mana, but our end goal is to turn our creatures into mana sources, and our threats are mostly blue/colorless, so keeping up a black isn't terribly hard.
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
Apparently I've completely missed that card in the past... My gut reaction is that it would slow down the deck by a turn which isn't the best, but I really want to chain Metamorphs and draw 5 cards... Also, it does mean that you get value out of every (artifact) spell you cast even if it doesn't resolve. I'll be considering this.
Note that if you chain Metamorphs copying the archmage, you draw:
1st Metamorph: 1 card
2nd Metamorph: 2 cards
3rd Metamorph: 3 cards
4th Metamorph: 4 cards
Total: 7 cards (probably with a win condition in the mix)
I think it could maybe be worth it in Tezzeret's slot or or something.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
How much mana are you normally casting thoughtcast for? I happen to own 3 already (as oppose to 0 serum visions)
I still kinda like judge's familiar.. for example I metamorph + architect chained and so it was a 4/4 flyier and that ends games fast. I guess that is similar in that I like platinium angel as it is a large flyier. I don't like giving my opponent too much time once I have executed my plan. When decks like pod and jund can gum up the ground (although junk clumps the air :S)
However I am definitely in the mood for more card draw another card to test!
Thoughtcast has been kind of iffy for me. I can usually get away with 3 mana, and sometimes two, but in the end I don't really know if ends up being better than Thirst for Knowledge. It might just be blind optimism.
As of late, I've really liked Vendettas main, since they kill more things, and you frequently take equal or less damage from it. The only downsides are whiffing on Bob, and the extra Goyf toughness every so often.
I've only played a handful of games with Dakra Mystic, but I'm liking it better than Judge's Familiar so far. Short of boardwipes and Scapeshift, I don't care about very many spells my opponent might cast, and the extra card draw tucked into a a blue one-drop for convoke/Architect has been very nice. Most people usually just slow roll against Familiar anyway. The only major downside is losing my Inkmoth Nexus blocker.
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
That's true. I had always dismissed Master Transmuter as kind of gimmicky and trying too hard to only play really big creatures like Blightsteel Colossus that are too hard to cast without it, but I never really thought about the flash aspect. In this way I think it is a better Shimmer Myr which will make it worth testing.
On a side note, it might be worth it to play a 1-of Staff of Domination because it combos with Tezz and Architect. Something you wouldn't want to rely on, but could be backbreaking if it ever came up.
Master Transmuter wants to abuse CITP effects and faties, which is not quite where this deck is at. She's a goodie, and I've wanted to make her work for ages, but it's a different style of deck. I mean, you could morph the deck into something more attuned to her with Myr Battlespheres/Thopter Assemblies as finishers, Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum as value enablers, but I don't know that it's better given how much it hinges on her.
As for Staff, I could maybe see one in the board in really grindy matches. I'm personally not a fan given we're trying not to actually combo it off with infinite mana (which you could with Pili-Pala, but that's a whole other package). It warrants testing I suppose.
Also, regarding the instant speed Duplicant, if you have to rely on another card to make your card good, it's an argument against it, not for it. Having the potential to cast it instant speed is nice, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
I used those as examples, but really, Hatchling wouldn't be playable in modern, and Shriekmaw has Evoke and evasion. Duplicant definitely does some work, but it's not the same. This is clearly seen by the fact that it only ever gets 1, maybe 2 slots in the deck. We just need more interactive cards because while our game plan is proactive, it's not like Storm where we can just ignore the opponent.
I don't really know how to explain it any better.
I was saying Duplicant is better for 2 reasons. First, it has no restrictions on it's removal like the non-black clause in each of your examples. And second, it is an artifact creature with CMC 6 and therefore fits perfectly into the deck's game plan.
Also, the reason only 1 or 2 get played in most lists is because of the shear number of tutors and various other draw spells. I play 1 mainboard with 5 tutors that can find him. That effectively gives me 6 copies of Duplicant, and the tutors can all be copied by Metamorphs making them each reusable. Serum Visions and Tezz can both dig when it's necessary. I almost never want Duplicant in my starting hand, but I never have trouble finding him if I need him.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but unfortunately, Duplicant can't beat Twin, doesn't do anything to wide decks like Zoo or Affinity, and is incredibly costly to recur if you need to kill multiple creatures (I mean, you could use your Metamorphs, but they're flex slots). It can also be easily circumvented by Pod players if they play their cards right. Duplicant is certainly not bad, and it's easily the best option given the available cards, but there's room for improvement.
I've been considering Dakra Mystic instead of Judge's Familiar since it provides another turn 1 blue creature for Architect/Engineer, but has substantial draw potential. I find that typically, if we come out quickly, we can stabilize against "fair" decks, so I figure the simultaneous draw isn't going to suck, except against Twin. That being said, I don't have any at the moment to test with.
I used those as examples, but really, Hatchling wouldn't be playable in modern, and Shriekmaw has Evoke and evasion. Duplicant definitely does some work, but it's not the same. This is clearly seen by the fact that it only ever gets 1, maybe 2 slots in the deck. We just need more interactive cards because while our game plan is proactive, it's not like Storm where we can just ignore the opponent.
I don't really know how to explain it any better.
Wow i'm glad to see a thread like this getting some attention. I have tried a few times to get a Modern MUD/Metal Worker/Grand Architect thread going in the past, and no one really seemed interested. I guess Chief Engineer got some people excited! Very cool though, this was a pet deck of mine for a while actually, but i stopped playing it a few months back. I guess i'm gonna have to get brewing again!
Back when i was playing the deck,i was using Kuldotha, and Lightning Greaves, to combo into Blightsteel. The deck had some pretty explosive finishes, but just didn't have the consistency i was looking for. There is definitely potential in some sort of Artifact Ramp deck here though.
What I like about the current iterations is that against different decks, you have different lines, all of which stem from the same strategy. You can spam creatures and win off of Grand Architect and Metamorph army pumps (more effective than you might expect), you can spam creatures and ramp into some beastly thing (Inkwell Leviathan or Blightsteel Colossus), or you can spam creatures and chain Sphinx Summoner's into Phyrexian Metamorphs for a big flying army.
I think that deck short two crucial elements: consistent artifact-based card draw, and more interactive elements.
For card draw, Thoughtcast is good but slow since we don't vomit our hand as fast as Affinity, and Tezzeret AoB is decent and provides another threat, but doesn't interact directly with the central strategy. Furthermore, neither of them is an artifact. What we could really use is Baleful Strix to give us more gas and eat Goyfs/Nexi.
For interactive spells - Pod gets by because it can search out specific pieces, so it doesn't have to dedicate as many slots to them. Meanwhile, we can't just wish up an Architect, so our slots get eaten up. I recall some discussion on thingsExecutioner's Capsule with Trinket Mage, but that's just bending over backwards for it. An artifact Shriekmaw/Dark Hatchling would be lovely.
I personally like Vendetta since I find the prospect of spending a bunch of mana on one turn to be less ideal than a teensy bit over several. There's also a lot of mind games that go along with open mana. If nothing else, it's certainly worth testing though, and I could reasonably see a split, or maybe wiggling them in over Dismember in the side.
I've actually thought about Looter, but we need proper draw, not just card selection. We aren't like Pod or Twin where we want specific cards (well, other than Architect), we want critical mass. We already have plenty of tutoring anyway.
Courier's Capsule is a UU Divination with Architect in play, a proper Divination with Sculptor or Engineer, and potentially a measely 1U with Engineer and another creature, so I think it might be a contender for the Thoughtcast slot given it's cheaper on an empty board. If you run lot of sacrifice effects like Phyrexia's Core, then Ichor Wellspring is awesome, but otherwise we're really only left with Howling Mine type symmetrical effects for cheap, artifact-based card draw. It's a little disappointing.
That's really what's holding this deck back. If we had an artifact Scroll Thief or something similar, the lack of interaction wouldn't even be as big a deal since we could just overrun opponents with fat artifacts or Architect pumps.
I've kept the Dismembers in the board just in case I'm playing versus Black, but beyond that, I've never really had an issue, so I'm a huge proponent. For three-color decks or decks with big color requirements, Dismember is much easier on the mana, but our end goal is to turn our creatures into mana sources, and our threats are mostly blue/colorless, so keeping up a black isn't terribly hard.
Note that if you chain Metamorphs copying the archmage, you draw:
1st Metamorph: 1 card
2nd Metamorph: 2 cards
3rd Metamorph: 3 cards
4th Metamorph: 4 cards
Total: 7 cards (probably with a win condition in the mix)
I think it could maybe be worth it in Tezzeret's slot or or something.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
Thoughtcast has been kind of iffy for me. I can usually get away with 3 mana, and sometimes two, but in the end I don't really know if ends up being better than Thirst for Knowledge. It might just be blind optimism.
3x Chief Engineer
3x Etherium Sculptor
2x Spellskite
3x Treasure Mage
3x Grand Architect
3x Lodestone Golem
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Sphinx Summoner
1x Duplicant
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Vendetta
3x Fabricate
3x Thoughtcast
2x Academy Ruins
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Darksteel Citadel
3x Island
2x Phyrexia's Core
3x Sunken Ruins
1x Swamp
3x Watery Grave
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Dismember
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Platinum Angel
2x Shimmer Myr
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Thopter Assembly
2x Trinket Mage
As of late, I've really liked Vendettas main, since they kill more things, and you frequently take equal or less damage from it. The only downsides are whiffing on Bob, and the extra Goyf toughness every so often.
I've only played a handful of games with Dakra Mystic, but I'm liking it better than Judge's Familiar so far. Short of boardwipes and Scapeshift, I don't care about very many spells my opponent might cast, and the extra card draw tucked into a a blue one-drop for convoke/Architect has been very nice. Most people usually just slow roll against Familiar anyway. The only major downside is losing my Inkmoth Nexus blocker.
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
Master Transmuter wants to abuse CITP effects and faties, which is not quite where this deck is at. She's a goodie, and I've wanted to make her work for ages, but it's a different style of deck. I mean, you could morph the deck into something more attuned to her with Myr Battlespheres/Thopter Assemblies as finishers, Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum as value enablers, but I don't know that it's better given how much it hinges on her.
As for Staff, I could maybe see one in the board in really grindy matches. I'm personally not a fan given we're trying not to actually combo it off with infinite mana (which you could with Pili-Pala, but that's a whole other package). It warrants testing I suppose.
Also, regarding the instant speed Duplicant, if you have to rely on another card to make your card good, it's an argument against it, not for it. Having the potential to cast it instant speed is nice, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but unfortunately, Duplicant can't beat Twin, doesn't do anything to wide decks like Zoo or Affinity, and is incredibly costly to recur if you need to kill multiple creatures (I mean, you could use your Metamorphs, but they're flex slots). It can also be easily circumvented by Pod players if they play their cards right.
Duplicant is certainly not bad, and it's easily the best option given the available cards, but there's room for improvement.
I really wish Baleful Strix was Modern legal. :/
I used those as examples, but really, Hatchling wouldn't be playable in modern, and Shriekmaw has Evoke and evasion. Duplicant definitely does some work, but it's not the same. This is clearly seen by the fact that it only ever gets 1, maybe 2 slots in the deck. We just need more interactive cards because while our game plan is proactive, it's not like Storm where we can just ignore the opponent.
I don't really know how to explain it any better.
What I like about the current iterations is that against different decks, you have different lines, all of which stem from the same strategy. You can spam creatures and win off of Grand Architect and Metamorph army pumps (more effective than you might expect), you can spam creatures and ramp into some beastly thing (Inkwell Leviathan or Blightsteel Colossus), or you can spam creatures and chain Sphinx Summoner's into Phyrexian Metamorphs for a big flying army.
I think that deck short two crucial elements: consistent artifact-based card draw, and more interactive elements.