Quicksilver fountain + pithing needle was enough vs tron. The fountain is especially great with all my non-islands that allows the flood counter to stick around longer.
Was it really a shout out though? I saw your link to this forum in the comments of that article, and I thank you for that. I didn't see the author make any reference to us though. He (shadowgripper) admitted that he was using my list in this forum too, so a little shout out our way would have been appreciated. I have been working so hard on this deck, playing hundreds and hundreds of games with it on MTGO, and refining it as I go. Seeing someone else trying to take credit for it is quite disheartening, especially after they admitted using my list specifically.
Definitely fair. I guess shoutout may have been a poor choice of words there for the original post and it more obvious credit could have been directed to the origins of each of those decks, but it is positive publicity for the deck and I generally consider that to be a win for archetypes like these. Hopefully linking the two will help a few more people to find their way over here and some more people will start playing around with the awesomeness that is Grand Architect.
So in a nut shell, to really build a Grand Architect deck we need more ways to bring the big guys into play, and ideally ways that aren't as vulnerable to creature removal. So that leaves basically two routes in my own mind...
1) Mono-blue devotion that tries to make use of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx to produce obsurd amounts of mana as plan B.
2) Mono-blue energy theme that Grand Architect slots brilliantly into and make use of Aetherworks Marvel.
3) Do both!
Thrown together really fast so I didn't have time to organize this listing...
You missed Heartless Summoning on that list of options I am a firm believer in the power of the enchantment. It dodges all common removal aside from Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan's Command (yeah Jund is a rough matchup) and sure it does have a drawback, but it is fairly simple to build/play around and also provides some crazily explosive plays.
As far as your list goes, it is intriguing and worth investigating but I am hesitant. Energy does have potential to be broken but it isn't yet. As it currently stands, the mechanic forces you to play a lot of subpar cards for finicky pay off. Magic already has enough luck involved in it and I don't want to add more reliance on luck for cards like Aetherworks Marvel. I also disagree that the "all in for a bomb" is the way to go. In my opinion, one of the most powerful aspects of the Heartless and MUD Architect decks is the wide variety in possible lines of play. An aggro or midrange deck with many options is much more resilient in this unforgiving format and isn't forced to rely on 1 interaction (in this case dropping a leviathan) that doesn't immediately win the game.
I don't have any problems in a world where the Golems can be slammed one after the other unabated. By and large, multiples would be back breaking for a lot of your likely opponents. But Modern is no such place where I see this recurring line of plays, as people usually have an answer. Like I said before, if you mull to a low hand, and your enabler is shot down, how are you powering out numerous 4CMC cards? How do you fight through discard? You are spending 4 mana at a time compared to an opponent's Path to Exile at 1W and Ancient Grudge at 2R or 1G. It hardly seems like a favorable option when you look at the odds of being able to fight through all of the opposition's answers. Can you highlight a list that breaks him, instead of just featuring him in some Magical Christmas Land scenario?
My list is similar to Ulka's list he posted above and I can confirm that multiple Lodestone Golems (or Metamorphed Lodestones) happen in a high percentage of games. Plenty of times you will be playing multiple in a turn and if they eat removal, then they worked as a timewalk + duress puling out a removal spell from the opponent's hand and then we get to drop either something like a wurmcoil or chain sphinxes. I don't know if you have played many games with Lodestone, but if you haven't I would recommend you try him out and see that the performance we are describing is not Magical Christmas Land scenarios (MCL scenarios are much much better than just slamming 2 Lodestones).
Also, I realize that KCommand is a card and as you pointed out in your earlier post, it is highly effective against decks of this style. I don't have much more to say on that other than its something you have to accept and be cognizant of when playing decks, like Jund, that are likely to be running it. When fighting discard, Dodecapods in the SB are great vs Lili and KCommand effects but otherwise you have to play through it just like any other combo or synergy based deck. I guess you could play Witchbane Orbs but that just seems bad...
VoodooKick, I honestly think that Lodestone Golem is a very important piece of this deck and could address the wrath issue that you brought up for your list. Keep in mind I don't play the aggro control lists that you are working off of, but rather the midrange Heartless Build so not all of my insight may translate.
In my experience Lodestone Golem has been a key piece of this deck. Yes it is a nonbo with several cards, but it slows down your opponent much more than it slows down you. And in the case where I get something like a Tezz stuck in my hand, I am happy to hold off playing it for a few turns while I have the stronger and more aggressive board state (depending on the matchup) and then dropping it as soon as I can pay the tax or Lodestone gets removed. Also notably, Lodestone is generally the card that wins me most of my games. Lodestone is also 1 of the ways I rely on for "interaction" with the opponent. You mentioned taxing the opponent by turn 3 to 4 which is exactly the point. Lodestone Golem taxes the combo players to push their win conditions back at least 1 turn while also applying pressure and threating to end the game quickly. Similarly, it is effective vs wrath effects because it does come down by turn 4 and pushes wraths back at least 1 turn while you continue to beat down.
I hope that gets across my thoughts on the Golem and I would be happy to pursue this further or any of your other questions (I think they are valid questions to ask) but I don't believe my lists to be similar enough to be very helpful on this thread.
He is free with heartless summoning, but there is nothing worse than getting stuck with a myr superion in your hand and no enabler and that happens way too often. Superion is great in any "pseudo-affinity" lists that try to puke their hand on the board asap, but in my experience it is unreliable in midrange versions.
Welcome! I originally tried a version of this (without Heartless Summoning) but found that Lodestone Golem is best ran along side other artifacts/enablers. He makes all of your non-artifacts spells, like your planeswalkers and disruption unnecessarily expensive, add to this that multiple Lodetones stack. If you really want to profit from Heartless Summoning, just run 3x Myr Superion instead.
That's not the same experience I have been having with Lodestone. It is a form of disruption itself, putting the opponent off balance while I am still able to continue playing my own threats. Yes it does tax some of my disruption, but knowing that in advance makes me able to plan on it and play around it. Also I mostly play cheap disruption (Dismember, Slaughter Pact, and I'm considering Murderous Cut which I think you were playing in older lists) which help to slightly offset that cost. The only piece that was really hurt by the Golems was the Mana Leaks, but those felt awkward already and will probably be cut very quickly. My main concern about Lodestone is that it is very fragile and I find many times that I don't really want to swing with it. That being said, it hits hard when it connects and can easily close out games.
Myr Superion is a card that I played in the original standard version of the deck, but I cut it a long time ago because it wasn't reliable enough. It led to lots of really explosive game ending plays, but is an awful topdeck and in my experience it relies on the engine too much.
Hello architect enthusiasts! I haven't posted in this thread for about a year and I know that it has shifted to focus on the monoblue/non-heartless lists, but I finally dusted off the old Heartless Architect deck and took it for a spin at a 16-man tournament last night. I made a lot of changes to my list from last summer the day of the tournament but managed to come in 5th place despite never testing the build. My record was 3-0-2 beating Junk, Eggs, and U/W Merfolk, and losing to another U/W Merfolk and G/R Tron.
So I know there are some strange choices in here, but there were several things I played just because I wanted to try and this was a low risk setting to give them a shot. The discard suite is kinda awkward, but I'm working on picking up Thoughtseizes and I didn't play Vedalken Shackles because I don't have fetches yet and can't reliably get enough islands.
My initial thoughts:
Chormatic Star was a fun idea but was ultimately too cute. They got sided out in almost every match and only kinda helped once.
Liliana of the Veil played very well and I'm caught between wanting to bump her up to 2 and thinking she doesn't really fit.
Wurmcoil Engine is a fantastic card, but I guess we all knew that before.
Mainboarded Ghost Quarters were a great idea and won me games.
Mana Leak felt a little awkward. I usually felt like I would rather have removal.
The Trinket Mage toolbox in the sideboard was extremely effective.
I feel like if you don't play it turn 1 it's going to be a liability and then it also sometimes will interfere with Thoughtseize turn 1. But free scry is also nothing to scoff at...
What do y'all think about Slaughter Pact instead of Vendetta? It misses the same targets as Vendetta and has no life loss. You also don't need to worry about what land you leave up and being able to pay for it after seems convenient in a deck that likes to tap all of it's mana every turn. It also has the upside of not tipping off your opponent by leaving a land untapped every turn.
I don't think a U/W is worth it. By dropping black you lose access to Sphinx Summoner and the Paths could be some sort of black removal (ie. Vendetta or Dismember) instead. I don't think Wall of Omens belongs in this deck because this deck wants to tap its creatures on your turn, making the block-ability irrelevant. I would rather have the Walls be able to tutor like Treasure Mage/Sphinx Summoner instead of just draw. Or they could be more Spellskites. That would be good too.
I think you will find trying to play control Engineer kinda awkward. The control aspects and the use all of your mana on your turn aspects of the deck clash and I think most of the time you will end up with a suboptimal mix of the two strategies.
I brought this up in my post above, but it does more, and typically for less life. Most Zoo creatures only eat up 3 life, Snap/Clique/Mite only eat up 1 life, and Exarch is the same. It misses Bob, and Goyf deals an extra point of damage, but it can also kill Wurmcoils and Primevals, so I'm happy to make the trade.
Alright you sold me on Vendetta, I'll take it for a spin.
I think it could maybe be worth it in Tezzeret's slot or or something.
Tezz does a lot more than just draw cards and is less fragile, so idk how I feel about dropping him. However I think you are right that would be it's place in the deck. I'll try it out because it seems powerful and there are some really cool plays you could do.
Out of curiosity, in your Heartless version, have you considered Vedalken Archmage? He dies to everything under the sun, but if you save him for a big turn, you can essentially chain stuff off the top of your deck until you run out of mana.
Apparently I've completely missed that card in the past... My gut reaction is that it would slow down the deck by a turn which isn't the best, but I really want to chain Metamorphs and draw 5 cards... Also, it does mean that you get value out of every (artifact) spell you cast even if it doesn't resolve. I'll be considering this..
How much mana are you normally casting thoughtcast for? I happen to own 3 already (as oppose to 0 serum visions)
I still kinda like judge's familiar.. for example I metamorph + architect chained and so it was a 4/4 flyier and that ends games fast. I guess that is similar in that I like platinium angel as it is a large flyier. I don't like giving my opponent too much time once I have executed my plan. When decks like pod and jund can gum up the ground (although junk clumps the air :S)
However I am definitely in the mood for more card draw another card to test!
Thoughtcast has been kind of iffy for me. I can usually get away with 3 mana, and sometimes two, but in the end I don't really know if ends up being better than Thirst for Knowledge. It might just be blind optimism.
I play Serum Visions in my build because it can be played turn 1 and helps set up my important turns 2 and 3 and I have been very happy with it (although I would be happier if it were Ponder). Thoughtcast and Thirst cannot fill that role
What do you usually Pithing Needle against Tron? And how early are you generally able to get Quicksilver Fountain online?
Definitely fair. I guess shoutout may have been a poor choice of words there for the original post and it more obvious credit could have been directed to the origins of each of those decks, but it is positive publicity for the deck and I generally consider that to be a win for archetypes like these. Hopefully linking the two will help a few more people to find their way over here and some more people will start playing around with the awesomeness that is Grand Architect.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/6985d7/decks_you_didnt_know_you_wanted_to_play_in_modern/
You missed Heartless Summoning on that list of options I am a firm believer in the power of the enchantment. It dodges all common removal aside from Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan's Command (yeah Jund is a rough matchup) and sure it does have a drawback, but it is fairly simple to build/play around and also provides some crazily explosive plays.
As far as your list goes, it is intriguing and worth investigating but I am hesitant. Energy does have potential to be broken but it isn't yet. As it currently stands, the mechanic forces you to play a lot of subpar cards for finicky pay off. Magic already has enough luck involved in it and I don't want to add more reliance on luck for cards like Aetherworks Marvel. I also disagree that the "all in for a bomb" is the way to go. In my opinion, one of the most powerful aspects of the Heartless and MUD Architect decks is the wide variety in possible lines of play. An aggro or midrange deck with many options is much more resilient in this unforgiving format and isn't forced to rely on 1 interaction (in this case dropping a leviathan) that doesn't immediately win the game.
My list is similar to Ulka's list he posted above and I can confirm that multiple Lodestone Golems (or Metamorphed Lodestones) happen in a high percentage of games. Plenty of times you will be playing multiple in a turn and if they eat removal, then they worked as a timewalk + duress puling out a removal spell from the opponent's hand and then we get to drop either something like a wurmcoil or chain sphinxes. I don't know if you have played many games with Lodestone, but if you haven't I would recommend you try him out and see that the performance we are describing is not Magical Christmas Land scenarios (MCL scenarios are much much better than just slamming 2 Lodestones).
Also, I realize that KCommand is a card and as you pointed out in your earlier post, it is highly effective against decks of this style. I don't have much more to say on that other than its something you have to accept and be cognizant of when playing decks, like Jund, that are likely to be running it. When fighting discard, Dodecapods in the SB are great vs Lili and KCommand effects but otherwise you have to play through it just like any other combo or synergy based deck. I guess you could play Witchbane Orbs but that just seems bad...
In my experience Lodestone Golem has been a key piece of this deck. Yes it is a nonbo with several cards, but it slows down your opponent much more than it slows down you. And in the case where I get something like a Tezz stuck in my hand, I am happy to hold off playing it for a few turns while I have the stronger and more aggressive board state (depending on the matchup) and then dropping it as soon as I can pay the tax or Lodestone gets removed. Also notably, Lodestone is generally the card that wins me most of my games. Lodestone is also 1 of the ways I rely on for "interaction" with the opponent. You mentioned taxing the opponent by turn 3 to 4 which is exactly the point. Lodestone Golem taxes the combo players to push their win conditions back at least 1 turn while also applying pressure and threating to end the game quickly. Similarly, it is effective vs wrath effects because it does come down by turn 4 and pushes wraths back at least 1 turn while you continue to beat down.
I hope that gets across my thoughts on the Golem and I would be happy to pursue this further or any of your other questions (I think they are valid questions to ask) but I don't believe my lists to be similar enough to be very helpful on this thread.
Foundry Inspector
Edit: Apparently it hasn't been added to mtgSalvation yet. Spoiler can be found here.
That's not the same experience I have been having with Lodestone. It is a form of disruption itself, putting the opponent off balance while I am still able to continue playing my own threats. Yes it does tax some of my disruption, but knowing that in advance makes me able to plan on it and play around it. Also I mostly play cheap disruption (Dismember, Slaughter Pact, and I'm considering Murderous Cut which I think you were playing in older lists) which help to slightly offset that cost. The only piece that was really hurt by the Golems was the Mana Leaks, but those felt awkward already and will probably be cut very quickly. My main concern about Lodestone is that it is very fragile and I find many times that I don't really want to swing with it. That being said, it hits hard when it connects and can easily close out games.
Myr Superion is a card that I played in the original standard version of the deck, but I cut it a long time ago because it wasn't reliable enough. It led to lots of really explosive game ending plays, but is an awful topdeck and in my experience it relies on the engine too much.
4 Grand Architect
3 Heartless Summoning
3 Etherium Sculptor
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Sphinx Summoner
2 Spellskite
1 Treasue Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chromatic Star
3 Serum Visions
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Mana Leak
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Watery Grave
8 Island
1 Swamp
1 Treasure Mage
1 Duplicant
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Spellskite
1 Dismember
1 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
2 Trinket Mage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
So I know there are some strange choices in here, but there were several things I played just because I wanted to try and this was a low risk setting to give them a shot. The discard suite is kinda awkward, but I'm working on picking up Thoughtseizes and I didn't play Vedalken Shackles because I don't have fetches yet and can't reliably get enough islands.
My initial thoughts:
What do y'all think about Slaughter Pact instead of Vendetta? It misses the same targets as Vendetta and has no life loss. You also don't need to worry about what land you leave up and being able to pay for it after seems convenient in a deck that likes to tap all of it's mana every turn. It also has the upside of not tipping off your opponent by leaving a land untapped every turn.
Alright you sold me on Vendetta, I'll take it for a spin.
Tezz does a lot more than just draw cards and is less fragile, so idk how I feel about dropping him. However I think you are right that would be it's place in the deck. I'll try it out because it seems powerful and there are some really cool plays you could do.
Apparently I've completely missed that card in the past... My gut reaction is that it would slow down the deck by a turn which isn't the best, but I really want to chain Metamorphs and draw 5 cards... Also, it does mean that you get value out of every (artifact) spell you cast even if it doesn't resolve. I'll be considering this..
I play Serum Visions in my build because it can be played turn 1 and helps set up my important turns 2 and 3 and I have been very happy with it (although I would be happier if it were Ponder). Thoughtcast and Thirst cannot fill that role
Edit: @Balefire: Wouldn't Dismember be better than Vendetta?