Well with twin gone Monastery Mentor as a card becomes a whole lot better I think. Unfortunately I don't see the meta changing in such a way that this deck become any better. Tron matchup is still dire and aggro decks like infect and affinity are still dificult as well. The problem in the new meta will be IMO that Tron is so consistent and fast (just not fast enough to beat the likes of infect) that midrange decks like these will be pushed out of the meta unless we can seriously improve our fast aggro matchup.
I tried a deck very similar to that one (with 2 Liliana's) and it's somewhat a mixed bag IMO.
On the one hand she can generate so much card advantage that she can just take the game with little support.
On the other hand her +1 doesn't play nice with our counter suite. And my biggest issue with her is that she really stretches the manabase making us a lot more vulnerable to blood moon, this is not really an issue otherwise as I can cast everything of 1 plains + 1 swamp + 1 island.
If you are playing Esper mentor then you need to run 3-4 Mentors mainboard. It seems like you could just be playing the card at the wrong times. Monastery Mentor is like Pack Rat in that they both die to everything, but they are insane when our opponents have exhausted their resources.
This is definately true, but Mentor kills a lot quicker then Pack Rat, while the rat is more resistant to spot removal.
It performs really well vs BGx, Twin, Grixis Control and miscellaneous creature decks. Not that great vs Griselcannon, Bloom, Ad Nauseum and so forth. I'm not sure whether it's even possible to tweak the deck to be acceptable against both. Possibly add more counterspells to the board.
IMO, this deck is pretty poor in the current grixis-heavy meta. It was already going downhill when Jund made its comeback. The bolt decks (bar twin) are hard to overcome IMO. I've switched to "big Abzan": no creatures that die to bolt and some Thruns in the sideboard.
Playtested with a hyper Aggresive version of BW tokens and got stomped. Never did any damage, his tokens were better than mine. Early aggression kept me on thr backfoot the entire game. Sideboard options for that deck?
Zealous Persecution is my go-to answer. I currently run a single one main and one in the side. It is crushing vs a lot of decks atm.
What's the GR tron matchup like? Rely on hand disruption and counters?
Pretty bad IMO. We're usually not fast enough to kill them before the big guns come down. Oblivion Stone and Ugin are beatings (and they often play Pyroclasm in the side). We have stony silence from the board but you really want land destruction as well.
Whelp, just had a my reply eaten by MTGS. So I'll just go over the synopsis. Thoughtscour has a ~15% to mill at least one souls T2/T3 in any given game where you've seen none, not something that I'd put into its favor. It also only increases your chance to see souls (over Visions, disregarding Scry) is ~10%. And if you do hit the 15% mill chance, its reward is a 1 mana reduction but only one usage; its useful, certainly but not something that would make me pick it over visions.
The mana efficency against combo/control isn't something that, again, would make me want it over Visions. Consider that Twin will typically only place Twin on a creature if it can protect it from our removal and/or counter magic. That means that you'll generally want to remove the flasher on your EoT, where their mana is most constrained. This is, of course, disregarding the common event where Twin takes out the combo in favor of grind-cards like Jace/Keranos and board sweeps.
The combat trick, to me, is the most useless "perk" of thoughtscour. In my opinion, any competent opponent won't block a prowess creature where a single instant makes the combat math terrible for them. So I don't see much of a difference between an in-combat thought scour and a first main Vision. It could, perhaps, protect an already buffed mentor from a bolt but your opponent would have had to let the first prowess trigger resolve (or you have another instant in hand) for that to matter.
My major thing about visions is that it allows for more hands to be kept. A 1-land hand, with mostly our 1 cmc instants, is eminently keepable with visions, probably not so much with thought scour.
But I could be wrong. Maybe 4 5/6cmc delve spells necessitates the thought scours in order to cast them comfortably. As I said, I'm only a few matches into this deck, there remains much to be seen.
I play 4 scours and 2 Serum Visions. IMO scour is more important in this deck. This is where it has made a difference in my games:
- fuels delve and snappies (gives you better selection) and especially enables turn 2 Tasigur, it's not common but when it happens it's a big play.
- instant speed token producer. You have 4 mana, cast mentor with U open, if they bolt you cast the scour and get a token. This is a pretty common play in my experience. And yes, a mini swiftspear token often is very relevant.
- instant speed combat trick, doesn't happen often but sometimes it helps.
- extra card advantage with lingering souls: doesn't happen often but when you scour a lingering souls that's a 'free' extra spell to trigger prowess and generate tokens.
IMO tought scour is an auto 4-of. Ok, sometimes you mul a one-lander on the play. It usually doesn't matter that much though, the deck muls pretty good. I've won 4-handers by landing T2 Tasigur.
1) I see some list playing a playset of Snapcaster and some others just 1 or 2. How much is he mandatory in this deck? (as I don't own them and don't plan to buy them soon, already too much stuff to get with MM2015 and fetches^^). Could he be replaced by Bob, as Snapcaster work a bit like card draw on a stick too?
Snappy is vital IMO. He gets powered up by the tought scours can close out games if need be. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card, but in a deck with multiple tasigurs and murderous cuts it's just asking for trouble.
With 8 fetches and a full set of Thought Scours, it's never a problem having enough stuff to delve. In addition 22 lands never felt like enough, particularly in a deck with no copies of Serum Visions. I think that the ability to make our turn 1 plays painlessly, especially given our subpar burn matchup, is very worth 1 less fetchland.
The turn 2 Tasigur play is so powerfull against a lot of decks I try to maximize the odds of it. I do play 1 Darkslick Shores and 1 Seachrome coast though.
I agree that 22 lands without Serum Visions is tough, I play 2 and I think this is the bare bones minimum.
Round 2 vs BW tokens
I make a misplay on my inquisition taking dismember (I only have Tasigur as my only threat) instead of spectral procession, he plays the procession + an anthem enchantment and beats me down.
I'm pretty sure spectral procession counts as a 6cmc spell and you can't IoK it.
Hm, didn't know that, makes sense I guess. Thanks!
Round 1 vs Affinity:
Game 1 he has a slow start allowing Lingering Souls to keep me in the game against cranial plated vault skirges. Finally I get to stick a Mentor and swamp him with monks taking him down from 35-ish life to 0. Second game I draw land 4 or 5 turns in a row. Last game I get to go engineered explosives into zealous persecution into stony silence while Tasigur hits for the win.
Round 2 vs BW tokens
I make a misplay on my inquisition taking dismember (I only have Tasigur as my only threat) instead of spectral procession, he plays the procession + an anthem enchantment and beats me down.
Second game I see none of sideboard cards and draw tons of land. 2-0 loss against a matchup I generally consider favourable if we get a mentor out, but this didn't happen.
Round 3 vs Scapeshift.
First game an early tasigur gets a fast clock going and closes it out. Second game I'm not fast enough and he combos off. Third game early Tasigur again while toughtseize gets rid of a Scapeshift and the boarded in counter suite does its work snagging remands and dispelling cryptics.
Round 4 vs Jund.
He plays threat after threat, I need my spot removal to get rid of 2 confidants but get overrun by goyfs and scoozes. Second game I make a side boarding mistake, I should have sided in the timely reinforcements and some other stuff instead of the counters (stupid, we don't want to trade 1 for 1 with Jund). To make matters worse my first 7 are a stinker, and I mull to a pretty crappy 6 card hand. Shoud have mulled that too but kept. I draw no spot removal can't answer his t2 confidant and get overrun again.
Round 5 vs Merfolk
First game I get a nut hand and the fish die under an avalanche of prowessing monks. Second game I barely stabilise at 3 life: I have a mentor and a monk with untapped mana, he has 3 mutavaults and the mana to activate them. He attacks with all 3, I play a tought scour, block them all (kill 2), mentor lives and I draw lingering souls from the top giving me enough bodies to turn the tables and finish him off.
Round 6 vs gifts ungiven/unburial rites.
First game he gets to reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria naming white. I find no pact or cut so I die.
Second game was really freakish I managed to get 2 myth realized at 8/8 ish but he draws 2 tec edges and 4 ghost quarter cutting me completely off white. I get close (he's down to 4) but die to Gideon beats in the end.
Lots of (bad) misplays on my part but also some bad matchups (especially the last one) and strangely there was not a single Grixis Delver or Splinter Twin deck in the entire tourney (which are the big fish we prey upon IMO).
Stars of the day: Monastery Mentor (if he sticks, we win) and Tasigur (I'm definately keeping 3 of these monsters in)
Flop of the day: Myth Realized: either ddn't see him in the matchups where he could have mattered, or I didn't draw any spells to get it big enough or it was just too slow to matter (or my opponent destroyed all my white source).
Yeah, it's more midrange rather than aggro. Although sometimes on turn 2 you can drop Tasigur.
I used to play a single supreme verdict in the side, but have switched it to engineered explosives to give me a bit more options vs artfifact/enchantment heavy decks. It can't be snapped back though, which is a definate downside when you scour it. Otoh it wins me games vs 8rack, elves and merfolk by blowing up racks, the 1 cmc enchantment that does damage if you have 1 card or less in hand, elf weenies, spreading seas and fish lords.
I'd love to see your 4 Myth Realized list Lectrys. I am still running 3, sometimes they are great sometimes not. I cut the permission for them which sometimes bites you pretty badly (especially vs the all-in combo decks).
@BadMcFadden: the power level is definately in the deck. I often close out long, grindy games with snappies, tokens or tar pits (especially with vault of the archangel in play). Some general pointers: don't always use your discard T1. Use it the turn before you want to drop a Mentor to see whether you can play the mentor or have to wait. If you have a mentor in hand hold on to your thought scours unless you need to cantrip for an answer or need the delve fuel. Once the mentor sticks and you have 1 or 2 monks you can close out the game quickly. I often even path my own summoning sick tokens to boost those prowess attackers and close the game out if the opponent tapped out (or has no cards). Vs wrath decks obviously deploy your threats one by one.
What Ym1r said. Geist is pretty useless if your opponent can go wide with blockers, and lingering souls is everywhere these days.
Monastery Mentor just keeps churning out the wannabe swiftspears while you advance your board yourself (hello Lingering Souls again).
Let's make a little comparison a turn 3 Geist on an empty board will deal:
6 damage by turn 4
12 damage by turn 5
18 damage by turn 6
A Mentor will do this, assuming you can cast 2 spells on turn 4 and then 1 every subsequent turn (which is not a stretch at all in this deck, you can often do even better):
4 damage by turn 4
11 damage by turn 5
20 damage by turn 6
A geist is better of course if your opponent is holding spot removal (mentors tend to get killed on sight, but we have more threats and discard and possibly permission), but it doesn't have as good synergy in this deck as mentor.
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On the one hand she can generate so much card advantage that she can just take the game with little support.
On the other hand her +1 doesn't play nice with our counter suite. And my biggest issue with her is that she really stretches the manabase making us a lot more vulnerable to blood moon, this is not really an issue otherwise as I can cast everything of 1 plains + 1 swamp + 1 island.
This is definately true, but Mentor kills a lot quicker then Pack Rat, while the rat is more resistant to spot removal.
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Watery Grave
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Marsh Flats
1 Vault of the Archangel
11 CREATURES
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Thought Scour
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
2 Thoughtseize
2 Remand
1 Murderous Cut
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Serum Visions
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Stony Silence
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Zealous Persecution
It performs really well vs BGx, Twin, Grixis Control and miscellaneous creature decks. Not that great vs Griselcannon, Bloom, Ad Nauseum and so forth. I'm not sure whether it's even possible to tweak the deck to be acceptable against both. Possibly add more counterspells to the board.
Zealous Persecution is my go-to answer. I currently run a single one main and one in the side. It is crushing vs a lot of decks atm.
Pretty bad IMO. We're usually not fast enough to kill them before the big guns come down. Oblivion Stone and Ugin are beatings (and they often play Pyroclasm in the side). We have stony silence from the board but you really want land destruction as well.
I play 4 scours and 2 Serum Visions. IMO scour is more important in this deck. This is where it has made a difference in my games:
- fuels delve and snappies (gives you better selection) and especially enables turn 2 Tasigur, it's not common but when it happens it's a big play.
- instant speed token producer. You have 4 mana, cast mentor with U open, if they bolt you cast the scour and get a token. This is a pretty common play in my experience. And yes, a mini swiftspear token often is very relevant.
- instant speed combat trick, doesn't happen often but sometimes it helps.
- extra card advantage with lingering souls: doesn't happen often but when you scour a lingering souls that's a 'free' extra spell to trigger prowess and generate tokens.
IMO tought scour is an auto 4-of. Ok, sometimes you mul a one-lander on the play. It usually doesn't matter that much though, the deck muls pretty good. I've won 4-handers by landing T2 Tasigur.
Snappy is vital IMO. He gets powered up by the tought scours can close out games if need be. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card, but in a deck with multiple tasigurs and murderous cuts it's just asking for trouble.
The turn 2 Tasigur play is so powerfull against a lot of decks I try to maximize the odds of it. I do play 1 Darkslick Shores and 1 Seachrome coast though.
I agree that 22 lands without Serum Visions is tough, I play 2 and I think this is the bare bones minimum.
Hm, didn't know that, makes sense I guess. Thanks!
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant/Sorcery 23
2 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Thought Scour
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalker 1
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Enchantments 3
3 Myth Realized
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Disenchant
2 Spell Snare
2 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
Round 1 vs Affinity:
Game 1 he has a slow start allowing Lingering Souls to keep me in the game against cranial plated vault skirges. Finally I get to stick a Mentor and swamp him with monks taking him down from 35-ish life to 0. Second game I draw land 4 or 5 turns in a row. Last game I get to go engineered explosives into zealous persecution into stony silence while Tasigur hits for the win.
Round 2 vs BW tokens
I make a misplay on my inquisition taking dismember (I only have Tasigur as my only threat) instead of spectral procession, he plays the procession + an anthem enchantment and beats me down.
Second game I see none of sideboard cards and draw tons of land. 2-0 loss against a matchup I generally consider favourable if we get a mentor out, but this didn't happen.
Round 3 vs Scapeshift.
First game an early tasigur gets a fast clock going and closes it out. Second game I'm not fast enough and he combos off. Third game early Tasigur again while toughtseize gets rid of a Scapeshift and the boarded in counter suite does its work snagging remands and dispelling cryptics.
Round 4 vs Jund.
He plays threat after threat, I need my spot removal to get rid of 2 confidants but get overrun by goyfs and scoozes. Second game I make a side boarding mistake, I should have sided in the timely reinforcements and some other stuff instead of the counters (stupid, we don't want to trade 1 for 1 with Jund). To make matters worse my first 7 are a stinker, and I mull to a pretty crappy 6 card hand. Shoud have mulled that too but kept. I draw no spot removal can't answer his t2 confidant and get overrun again.
Round 5 vs Merfolk
First game I get a nut hand and the fish die under an avalanche of prowessing monks. Second game I barely stabilise at 3 life: I have a mentor and a monk with untapped mana, he has 3 mutavaults and the mana to activate them. He attacks with all 3, I play a tought scour, block them all (kill 2), mentor lives and I draw lingering souls from the top giving me enough bodies to turn the tables and finish him off.
Round 6 vs gifts ungiven/unburial rites.
First game he gets to reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria naming white. I find no pact or cut so I die.
Second game was really freakish I managed to get 2 myth realized at 8/8 ish but he draws 2 tec edges and 4 ghost quarter cutting me completely off white. I get close (he's down to 4) but die to Gideon beats in the end.
Lots of (bad) misplays on my part but also some bad matchups (especially the last one) and strangely there was not a single Grixis Delver or Splinter Twin deck in the entire tourney (which are the big fish we prey upon IMO).
Stars of the day: Monastery Mentor (if he sticks, we win) and Tasigur (I'm definately keeping 3 of these monsters in)
Flop of the day: Myth Realized: either ddn't see him in the matchups where he could have mattered, or I didn't draw any spells to get it big enough or it was just too slow to matter (or my opponent destroyed all my white source).
I used to play a single supreme verdict in the side, but have switched it to engineered explosives to give me a bit more options vs artfifact/enchantment heavy decks. It can't be snapped back though, which is a definate downside when you scour it. Otoh it wins me games vs 8rack, elves and merfolk by blowing up racks, the 1 cmc enchantment that does damage if you have 1 card or less in hand, elf weenies, spreading seas and fish lords.
@BadMcFadden: the power level is definately in the deck. I often close out long, grindy games with snappies, tokens or tar pits (especially with vault of the archangel in play). Some general pointers: don't always use your discard T1. Use it the turn before you want to drop a Mentor to see whether you can play the mentor or have to wait. If you have a mentor in hand hold on to your thought scours unless you need to cantrip for an answer or need the delve fuel. Once the mentor sticks and you have 1 or 2 monks you can close out the game quickly. I often even path my own summoning sick tokens to boost those prowess attackers and close the game out if the opponent tapped out (or has no cards). Vs wrath decks obviously deploy your threats one by one.
Monastery Mentor just keeps churning out the wannabe swiftspears while you advance your board yourself (hello Lingering Souls again).
Let's make a little comparison a turn 3 Geist on an empty board will deal:
6 damage by turn 4
12 damage by turn 5
18 damage by turn 6
A Mentor will do this, assuming you can cast 2 spells on turn 4 and then 1 every subsequent turn (which is not a stretch at all in this deck, you can often do even better):
4 damage by turn 4
11 damage by turn 5
20 damage by turn 6
A geist is better of course if your opponent is holding spot removal (mentors tend to get killed on sight, but we have more threats and discard and possibly permission), but it doesn't have as good synergy in this deck as mentor.