So roughly half of Modern Horizon has been spoiled so far. What do you guys think about Sultai in Modern with the new additions? Anything you want for this deck?
Force of Despair looks cool, but another removal piece for a deck that's got tons of removal already? doesn't look like much impact hehe. Still a very cool card.
Midrange ain't getting too much so far.
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Very different from normal builds but I’m wondering if it’s possible to make something reasonable using Noble Hierarch, Scryb Ranger, Spellstutter Sprite, Coatl, and some of the new Ninjas (not sure which yet), alongside a bunch of instants.
Thought Scour plus Angler/Tasigur is also an edge. Goyf + Stubs is strong too. I worry that Trophy doesn't fully make up for Sultai's underlying and historic weaknesses, but I do think that Snap/Trophy on its own is a potent one-for-one removal strategy.
Trophy won't be a 4 of, but it's pretty good. It's going in my BUG list for sure, and my list can hold it's own well enough.
Just finished a league with the above list, plus an FNM. Humans and Bridgevine are unfavorable, you can beat humans but Bridgevine is real bad. Burn, Bogles, anything midrange, Affinity, and a few others were even to favorable.
This is what I'll be trying next, after playing my previous build for a bit, I've become a bit skeptical on the fastland approach. The life savings is nice, but I'm still usually hitting the fetch/shock openers. As a result I was questioning Field of Ruin, but I'm not quite willing to totally abandon the fastlands. So I decided to split the difference, plus I put in 2 Jace. Here's the result
So what do people think of the manabase? I've seen two directions you can go with it. Save life with fastlands or be more interactive with Field of Ruins. Field is really good in the current metagame, but so is not taking 7 damage a game from land.
Hey folks, I've been brewing with Sultai for a bit after buying into the BGx Midrange core, to which I added parts of my UB Fae deck. I saw Fabiano's video and loved it, but I'm personally torn between two directions for this deck. It's the choice between going all out on Grim Flayer or playing Delve threats. The delve creatures are the more resilient threats, but I feel like Grim Flayer is less clunky in terms of GY use and more low to the ground. I also prefer more Snapcasters over Baby Jace. What do you guys think of this list?
I'm not a fan of flayer, if you want some trample power I would use a Rancor instead. I also find that he's often too small to trigger consistently.
Played my above list a bit now with the updates. It's working pretty well, though 2 Jace CC is feeling a bit high so I think I've got one more slot to change. I'm considering a Garruk Relentless given that 3 damage is well positioned in the meta again lately.
Slaughter Pact has been my MVP
Edit: Changed my SB a bit too, here's the current list
I'm also playing something based on Gfab's list. I used that as a starting point and then made a few changes. Been playing this build for about a week and a half.
After playing it a bit, I'm finding that Ashiok could go, as could the Scarab God and Kalitas. I wouldn't mind cutting those for another Delve creature like a Hooting Mandrills or perhaps a Rancor, another Bitterblossom, and another Jace, CC. Though the lifegain from Kalitas has come in handy a couple of times. I think I might like swapping the numbers on Angler/Tasigur too.
In the SB I wouldn't mind seeing an Engineered Explosives turn into another Pulse, and Relic should probably be a second Spellbomb. A surgical could be nice too, but I'm not sure what it would be coming in over.
I will say, that Bitterblossom into Jace, into triggers to fuel Goyf/Delve/Azcanta gets real broken real fast.
I've been playing something pretty similar to the GFab list for a couple weeks now, I'll likely just switch to it entirely, I really liked how it played out on stream. One thing I will note though is that the D&T matchup is nearly an autolose.
Thought this might be reasonable to post here (cross posted in Sultai Delirium thread). I lean a little closer to midrange but this has a lot of CA+removal. So far it's just an idea. I need to pick up a couple Azcanta's to make it a reality. Basically though, I've been playing with Tracker's Instincts a lot in Legacy lately alongside Jace VP and the two combo amazingly well, so I wanted to try taking that sort of shell to Modern. It's a very natural BUG build. I think TI has been overlooked in favor of Collected Company which requires a few more creatures. TI generates similar levels of value (albeit a little slower) but it also requires a lower creature count, and more importantly fuels GY spells. This makes delve+TI very synergistic, which puts you firmly into BUG territory.
Then I got to thinking about this a little more and thought it might be cool to add Azcanta. It also fuels delve if you can get a window to cast it, TI pushes the flip, and the back side both helps a deck be greedy on mana, and digs into even more CA. Most decks I've seen have tried to pair with Snapcaster, but Snapcaster generally wants a higher spell count than Jace does. So I have fewer flashback targets in here, but that's ok because you'll fill your GY with some between TI+Thought Scour+Azcanta. The odds are about 80% to hit on either TI or Azcanta uses, and then Grim Flayer can also come in and give you some triggers. There's also some excellent top deck control going on between Courser, Azcanta, Flayer, and Jace. Finally, you round things out with a few 5 drops that end the game.
So here's the list right now, it's currently 61 to make the numbers work, but I think 61 is better than 60 in this case between the dig and the fact that the 61st card is a land, which you need to make the colors work. It simply improves your chances of hitting anything relevant off either TI or Azcanta and the mana to cast those things.
Running both Bauble and Wraith does not render Jace and Snapcaster void. There are plenty of targets for Snapcaster despite running a 4-of of both. We can still Snap back that Push, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Brutality or Denial.
Running Thought Scour instead feels suboptimal and underwhelming, particularly if its main purpose is to achieve Delirium for a Flayer that has been otherwise under-performing in this build. This is coincidentally something we do agree on.
Personally, I think Flayer feels at home in Abzan alongside Lingering Souls, but little elsewhere. When I first built my Sultai Midrange, I thought to myself "it's going to be great, pitching spells with Flayer for Mage to snapcast back". Unfortunately, that just didn't happen as often as I'd wanted it to, and I certainly don't think it will in a build where instant/sorc slots are occupied by cards like Shadow and Wraith.
One thing Thought Scour does have going for it is that it feeds Goyf, so it's not ruled out for me just yet. If it had a [less expensive] Flashback effect like Forbidden Alchemy, I'd maybe be more incentivised to running it but I can't tell for sure.
What I think I'll do is drop the Charm (does nothing Abrupt Decay doesn't ready do for us 90 % of the time and is hard to cast) and possibly a Denial to bring back a pair of Decays. How have these been working out for you in this build?
Bauble still takes up deck space, as does Street Wraith. Giving up 8 deck slots can be an issue. I guess an argument can be made that you can just run fewer Snaps, but then you again get into the issue of what blue is doing for you when you cut the blue cards. Thought Scour is there, because the one thing I learned when playing RUG Delver with Traverse (which was pretty good btw... and something I'm trying to replicate here) is that you need cards that can get to the GY on their own. That's why Bauble/Wraith are good. Wraith is good specifically because it puts creature in the GY while removal like Path doesn't. Why this matters is that Thought Scour puts itself (instant) into the GY alongside two more cards, presumably one more type. Instant speed removal doesn't do this reliably because it forces you to kill something you may or may not care about. Worse, it does nothing if the opponent has nothing like say against Ad Naseaum. This is where sorcery cantrips also come into play, but I think discard fills a similar space.
Flayer Delirium doesn't really matter, I'll probably just drop it from the list. Delirium for Traverse does matter though. Traverse is a great way to increase threat density.
Very different from normal builds but I’m wondering if it’s possible to make something reasonable using Noble Hierarch, Scryb Ranger, Spellstutter Sprite, Coatl, and some of the new Ninjas (not sure which yet), alongside a bunch of instants.
Trophy won't be a 4 of, but it's pretty good. It's going in my BUG list for sure, and my list can hold it's own well enough.
Went 4-1 in the league.
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Field of Ruin
Creatures 13
3 Stitcher's Supplier
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells 19
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Opt
2 Serum Visions
1 Despise
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Fatal Push
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Bitterblossom
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Collective Brutality
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Damping Sphere
It's very playable.
Tick up, draw/discard in a deck like this is potent. It digs, it fuels delve, and it turns into threats. Bitterblossom/Jace is a very potent combo
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Field of Ruin
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Manddrills
1 Gurmag Angler
Planeswalkers 6
2 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Opt
3 Serum Visions
3 Thought Scour
1 Duress
2 Fatal Push
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bitterblossom
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Despise
Forgot to dig out the sideboard, so not including that right now.
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Field of Ruin
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
Creatures 10
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells 22
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Opt
2 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour
1 Duress
2 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Bitterblossom
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
1 Negate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
SB feels a little loose right now, suggestions welcome.
I'm not a fan of flayer, if you want some trample power I would use a Rancor instead. I also find that he's often too small to trigger consistently.
Slaughter Pact has been my MVP
Edit: Changed my SB a bit too, here's the current list
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
Creatures 11
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Garruk Relentless
Spells 21
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Opt
2 Fatal Push
2 Thought Scour
2 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bitterblossom
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
Creatures 12
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 The Scarab God
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells 20
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Opt
2 Fatal Push
2 Thought Scour
2 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bitterblossom
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
After playing it a bit, I'm finding that Ashiok could go, as could the Scarab God and Kalitas. I wouldn't mind cutting those for another Delve creature like a Hooting Mandrills or perhaps a Rancor, another Bitterblossom, and another Jace, CC. Though the lifegain from Kalitas has come in handy a couple of times. I think I might like swapping the numbers on Angler/Tasigur too.
In the SB I wouldn't mind seeing an Engineered Explosives turn into another Pulse, and Relic should probably be a second Spellbomb. A surgical could be nice too, but I'm not sure what it would be coming in over.
I will say, that Bitterblossom into Jace, into triggers to fuel Goyf/Delve/Azcanta gets real broken real fast.
Yes, but I'm finding it's better to go TI or Azcanta and to not mix the two.
Then I got to thinking about this a little more and thought it might be cool to add Azcanta. It also fuels delve if you can get a window to cast it, TI pushes the flip, and the back side both helps a deck be greedy on mana, and digs into even more CA. Most decks I've seen have tried to pair with Snapcaster, but Snapcaster generally wants a higher spell count than Jace does. So I have fewer flashback targets in here, but that's ok because you'll fill your GY with some between TI+Thought Scour+Azcanta. The odds are about 80% to hit on either TI or Azcanta uses, and then Grim Flayer can also come in and give you some triggers. There's also some excellent top deck control going on between Courser, Azcanta, Flayer, and Jace. Finally, you round things out with a few 5 drops that end the game.
So here's the list right now, it's currently 61 to make the numbers work, but I think 61 is better than 60 in this case between the dig and the fact that the 61st card is a land, which you need to make the colors work. It simply improves your chances of hitting anything relevant off either TI or Azcanta and the mana to cast those things.
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thought Scour
2 Thoughtseize
1 Murderous Cut
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Rancor
4 Tracker's Instincts
2 Walking Ballista
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Grim Flayer
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 The Scarab God
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Bauble still takes up deck space, as does Street Wraith. Giving up 8 deck slots can be an issue. I guess an argument can be made that you can just run fewer Snaps, but then you again get into the issue of what blue is doing for you when you cut the blue cards. Thought Scour is there, because the one thing I learned when playing RUG Delver with Traverse (which was pretty good btw... and something I'm trying to replicate here) is that you need cards that can get to the GY on their own. That's why Bauble/Wraith are good. Wraith is good specifically because it puts creature in the GY while removal like Path doesn't. Why this matters is that Thought Scour puts itself (instant) into the GY alongside two more cards, presumably one more type. Instant speed removal doesn't do this reliably because it forces you to kill something you may or may not care about. Worse, it does nothing if the opponent has nothing like say against Ad Naseaum. This is where sorcery cantrips also come into play, but I think discard fills a similar space.
Flayer Delirium doesn't really matter, I'll probably just drop it from the list. Delirium for Traverse does matter though. Traverse is a great way to increase threat density.