so far 8-2-1 over 2 FNMs with this list. Losses and the draw have been to poor/suboptimal play. I love this list it plays well and has game vs so many things. To the surprise of no one, GB really benefited from getting 8 cantrips. Oko is also bonkers with astrolabes. Having Karn means I have even more game vs decks like urza and other artifact heavy decks. Even though i have no way to power out a lattice, the GB shells means when it comes it's always uncontested. Should one day I cut Karn it would be for +1 liliana OTV, +1 oko and +1 something else either tracker or a pulse main.
round 1: GB midrange
g1 I get buried under too many trackers, plain and simple just couldn't keep up. g2 we have an insane back and forth game. I'm talking like one of the best games of magic I've played in a while. the game ended when I top decked karn cast him and fetched/cast lattice. I had 10 lands in play...g3 was much faster just had fast beatdowns, oko to remove opposing goyfs and ripped what I needed when i needed it.
1-0
r2: Humans
g1 I just had a ton of removal and got to flash in a coatl to kill a rider and from there I was so far ahead so I pumped a hexdrinker up to full and went to town. g2 he saw my hand of tons of snakes so played a plague engineer on snake which was good for me as I didn't have any. later I play my own on human and basically prevent him from doing much else. Goyfs take it home
2-0
r3: UW control
g1 we have a long grindy game but I miss-sequence playing oko and could have played oko animate a labe and attack his jace to kill it. instead I did something else stupidly and regretted it immediately. Jace eventually drew him too many cards and I couldn't come back. g2 I mull to 5 and die.
2-1
r4: mono blue tezz whir prison
g1 mega long game and made a mega stupid mistake by elking his ensnaring bridge but ignoring tezzeret, the seeker and attacking him. To be fair there was an insane amount of permanents on the field and just totally forgot about him in my haste to kill him. Well he ults tezz and kills be on back swing. g2 much shorter game. Goyf and killing bridge gets me there easy. g3 we go to time but my deck just preys on his. Had we had a few more minutes I would have had it. what can ya do, that's what I get for making such a bonehead misplay g1.
2-1-1
r5: bant blade
g1 I was able to answer 3 SFM and 2 of the equipment but ultimately couldn't answer the remaining batterskull in time. g2 I get a snake early and with some backup removal and discard snake takes it home. g3 was SUPER long and awesome. We had dueling oko's for a bit. I beat 4 yes 4 SFM and just kept chipping in with coatl and eventually Karn got to lattice lock him. bant blade is such a sweet deck!
3-1-1
t8: UW control rematch.
g1 lots of discard and liliana and oko won me it without too much trouble. g2 was super long and grindy trading back and forth walkers. I'm not sure I played optimally but I eventually got there with a mishmash of things. All I remember is it was close and I never really felt ahead. I feel like had he ripped some sequence of things he could have won. Pretty much most of my cards are must answer tho so there's that.
4-1-1
t4: 4c snow control
g1 we trade coatls back and forth for a while but i was able to sneak in a hexdrinker and pump before he was able to slam his wren6. after getting it to 8 counters I just had to work through some cryptic commands but he was unable to race it in the end. g2 he gets stuck on 3 lands for a few extra turns and that probably shut the door. We trade elks and okos for a while as well but eventually I was able to play too many things. He was doing things but I know he had a couple 4 drops in hand which definitely would have changed the game. I don't think he had a real way to deal with my oko though. still was pretty close all things considering. I'm not sure how many lands he runs but I know decks that tend to have coatl, labe and wren6 tend to shave on lands so it's a thing that happens. While our decks are similar, I think Karn trumps wren6 in this kind of matchup.
5-1-1
Overall super happy with the list and can never complain with a finals finish even though I made some major booboos throughout the night. I want to add in a 3rd oko but unsure what to cut. Obvious choices are hexdrinker or karn. Both tho have been super good for me. 2 of hexdrinker just feels right, card is an insane late game threat. I got to lattice lock people 3 times throughout the night as well and he just finds things I need like pithing needle and explosives on top of liquimetal coating which works insane with oko being able to elk anything like walkers with coating.
I have played with thopter sword a lot but only in the context with a tezzeret shell. Even in there thopter/sword is only just fine. It's not usually great. It's very slow and not always reliable to find. In your list you have 1 way to really find a piece and that's a singleton muddle. I promise you it's going to be so unreliable it's not worth it. You don't even have grim flayer or visions to filter for it. Both pieces alone are also horrible in that deck.
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I've played something similar to your list. I didn't run architects (played thought scour). I've been goldfishing with them though and I'm not sure which is better honestly. I think I like them both together honestly (scour + architects). Architects is good for fueling delerium more so than fueling delve. Mandrills was ok for me, some matches I wished it was the angler some matches i was glad it was mandrills. As a small tangent, if you run 1 gurmag 1 mandrills you get to say you are playing hootie and the blowfish. /sigh i'm old
my only real critique would probably be -1 stubborn, +1 serum. I personally have almost always wanted the filtering vs the 4th denial as denial is sometimes really bad. I would also HIGHLY recommend 1-2 maelstrom pulse somewhere in your 75. You will find yourself having trouble killing 4+cmc cards. It really is one of the best catch-alls we can play.
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I know I'm super late on the discard discussion but I think discard is fine (I always play decks with them interestingly enough). The reason I like them in sultai is having grim flayer and or serum visions to filter your draws. Decks like this need them early and well obviously not late. Unlike jund, we have some tools to remove them. If you were to play bauble too, you can check the top of your library and fetch shuffle. To this point, the jund death shadow list plays 8 discard. 8!
too bad there's no seamless way of being able to play both easily (counter + discard). There's just always going to be awkward times. I feel the slower your deck is the better counters are as you most likely don't have the pressure to get there before it's too late. With a consistent good clock, discard is better. It's possible i have this backwards, i dunno. I have always been partial to having discard g1 and counters in SB once I know exactly what I have to play against and any random card choices.
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The list is closer to a value chord deck in style. I personally would rather snap over jace but I guess when you have 4 traverse he may be better. Honestly you could fit a couple in there. Snap doesn't have a lot of great targets though. I cannot speak to how good the list actually is. I love the emrakul, I'm sure she ended many of his games. I wish there were thought scours in there somewhere as emrakul is still a very late game play. Deck kind of screams for flayer too but what can you do.
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Back from FNM with my report. I took cryptic delve build with me. SB was different as I didn't have spreading seas. Probably would have made a huge difference
I'm not going to go too indepth in each match. I played against jund, bant eternal command, GW tron and GR tron. For reference, The last 4+ weeks I have been on sultai midrange, jund style deck and loved it. I had 4 top 8s in a row, one being a top 4. I just picked up cryptics and decided to give it a whirl. I went 0-4. Infact, I didn't even win a game. Not a single one. That hasn't happened to me in like 10+ years. I'm not 100% sure why. I didn't make any glaring mistakes although I'm sure my play wasn't super tight as I don't normally play counterspells. What the deck felt like was it just didn't do much. Sure I got to counter some spells but nothing seemed to line up right. I got flooded out a lot late game, didn't have enough threats or didn't have the counters I needed. It's hard to go 0-8 in games and not blame the deck though. I got out valued hard by bant command, he just always had counters to trump mine and got to use like infinity paths. Jund was jund and tron was tron. The lack of seas as I said was a real problem as I basically always lost to ugin's sanctum. my board was just eh vs tron. I think I'll give this build another run just to see but I'm not super impressed honestly. It's possible it was just a fluke week so I'm not going to rule that out.
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It is a great way to go for a more jund style of play although I don't agree with all their choices. I will miss liliana, discard and flayers but I want to try cryptics this friday.
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Yeah that list is strange but somewhat understandable. He is essentially using bauble as a blue card. I personally feel bob would be better off as more blue cards as the splash really isn't worth it for only a few cards. Snapcaster is high impact but not as a 2 of neither is scour.
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thoughts: potentially huge dudes that avoid push. Cheap curve that bodes well with cryptic. I don't like how GY dependent it is. It's not as bad as it could be though.
next variant:
-2 mandrills
-2 denial
-1 thought scour
+3 dark confidant
+2 countersquall
thoughts: I actually really like this version. Lots of filtering and drawing potential. The biggest problem is 4 cryptic and 2 tasigur make bob pretty scary since there's no native life gain. It's possible it's not that big of a deal and there's enough filtering to make it only a rare chance.
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Ran my midrange deck through another FNM. Smaller than normal probably about 20 people or so. Was cut to top 4 only which feels bad.
r1: grissholbrand
These were nervewracking games. game 1 thank the lord for the 2 stubborn denial. had 1 in my opener and it saved my ass. g2 i got WRECKED by t2 blood moon when i had 1 land. g3 he goes to combo but I counter then he pact of negations me...wtf? he then goes off and draws almost his whole deck. turns out the card he needed was in the bottom 2 of his library LOL well that was lucky.
1-0
r2: dredge
I keep really bad starting hands for some reason and get super punished. was dumb. g2 especially i had so much time to do anything but conflags killed everything. I see luck goes both ways haha
1-1
r3: mono red sun and moon
g1 I just dominate him and again stubborn denial wrecks his plan to shut me out with an early chalice. g2 blood moon yet again wrecks me on his t2. I got stuck on lands anyways but combines with that I have no chance. g3 we go back and forth some. I counter some of his lock pieces. I thought i was going to lose as I was racing his chandra poorly but eventually I was able to kill it, land a liliana and start going to town.
2-1
r4: abzan
very long story short we go to time in g3. We end with him way up on life but with only shambling vent and me with liliana and another in hand. He gives me the win. Some notable things in the match. g2 he tries to extraction push in response to snapcaster. I eat it with scooze. I'm surprised I saw that line to be honest as it was the first time it has ever come up. He didn't see it. felt both great and bad. I also got to extract his souls one game with him at 5 mana. presumably to cast removal or something. talk about getting punished.
3-1
I ended up making top 4! I certainly got lucky round 1 I will admit. This is my 3rd top 8 in a row with this deck with a 9th place the week before. I purchased countersqualls and cryptics so next week I will be trying out the cryptic build. I will certainly miss playing discard, flayer and liliana but will be nice to try something new. For the record, flayer and liliana have always been very good for me.
with only 11 creatures there will be plenty of times it's just a bad counterspell or an even worse raise dead. I could be very wrong but that card doesn't seem very good.
if you are looking for sweet 3 mana cards, I've been testing a similar cryptic build with 1 clique and 2 tireless tracker. Trackers are not by any means an early play but good lord do they grind. I've been loving them although I am a bit biased as I just love that card. Still though, they work awesome with the push plan as you already want more fetches to accommodate push. They keep you in the habit of either not playing lands or waiting to crack fetches until you need to. If your meta is filled with very fast decks I wouldn't recommend them. In that case, eternal witness is probably better. Or even better, vengeful rebel
You absolutely need 3-4 thought scour. I play 4 with flayer and tasigur. Not only does that allow you to get t2 tasigur pretty commonly it will certainly help with delerium. I am currently more on the proactive build kind of like yours. Be warned though, even with scour, delerium is not guaranteed but it helps a lot.
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I would recommend disdainful stroke. Sure there are plenty of matches it won't do too terribly much but it hits literally everything relevant in tron. Also hits scapeshift, ad naseum, coco, random walkers like nahiri, gideon, become immense, any delve guys, etc. It's been good for me even though it's almost guaranteed a 1 of kind of card, perhaps a 2 of.
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I don't play a ton of counters in my 75 (admittedly a good amount in sb) so liliana is pretty much always awesome. I play delve route so my hand empties pretty quickly anyways. I think I would only cut her if I were to be running a delver variant.
to other's commenting on how was FP. Most of the time it was great. There were times vs UW control I could not kill a finks or a resto. So be prepared it's not a end all be all removal spell like path.
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Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
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2 hexdrinker
2 scavenging ooze
4 ice-fang coatl
4 tarmogoyf
spells
4 arcum's astrolabe
4 fatal push
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 assassin's trophy
2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
2 oko, thief of crowns
3 karn, the great creator
2 blooming marsh
3 field of ruin
2 nurturing peatland
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 watery grave
2 snow-covered forest
1 snow-covered island
4 snow-covered swamp
2 prismatic vista
4 verdant catacombs
2 fulminator mage
1 plague engineer
1 kalitas, traitor of ghet
1 engineered explosives
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liquimetal coating
1 torpor orb
2 dead of winter
1 maelstrom pulse
1 force of vigor
1 batterskull
1 mycosynth lattice
round 1: GB midrange
g1 I get buried under too many trackers, plain and simple just couldn't keep up. g2 we have an insane back and forth game. I'm talking like one of the best games of magic I've played in a while. the game ended when I top decked karn cast him and fetched/cast lattice. I had 10 lands in play...g3 was much faster just had fast beatdowns, oko to remove opposing goyfs and ripped what I needed when i needed it.
1-0
r2: Humans
g1 I just had a ton of removal and got to flash in a coatl to kill a rider and from there I was so far ahead so I pumped a hexdrinker up to full and went to town. g2 he saw my hand of tons of snakes so played a plague engineer on snake which was good for me as I didn't have any. later I play my own on human and basically prevent him from doing much else. Goyfs take it home
2-0
r3: UW control
g1 we have a long grindy game but I miss-sequence playing oko and could have played oko animate a labe and attack his jace to kill it. instead I did something else stupidly and regretted it immediately. Jace eventually drew him too many cards and I couldn't come back. g2 I mull to 5 and die.
2-1
r4: mono blue tezz whir prison
g1 mega long game and made a mega stupid mistake by elking his ensnaring bridge but ignoring tezzeret, the seeker and attacking him. To be fair there was an insane amount of permanents on the field and just totally forgot about him in my haste to kill him. Well he ults tezz and kills be on back swing. g2 much shorter game. Goyf and killing bridge gets me there easy. g3 we go to time but my deck just preys on his. Had we had a few more minutes I would have had it. what can ya do, that's what I get for making such a bonehead misplay g1.
2-1-1
r5: bant blade
g1 I was able to answer 3 SFM and 2 of the equipment but ultimately couldn't answer the remaining batterskull in time. g2 I get a snake early and with some backup removal and discard snake takes it home. g3 was SUPER long and awesome. We had dueling oko's for a bit. I beat 4 yes 4 SFM and just kept chipping in with coatl and eventually Karn got to lattice lock him. bant blade is such a sweet deck!
3-1-1
t8: UW control rematch.
g1 lots of discard and liliana and oko won me it without too much trouble. g2 was super long and grindy trading back and forth walkers. I'm not sure I played optimally but I eventually got there with a mishmash of things. All I remember is it was close and I never really felt ahead. I feel like had he ripped some sequence of things he could have won. Pretty much most of my cards are must answer tho so there's that.
4-1-1
t4: 4c snow control
g1 we trade coatls back and forth for a while but i was able to sneak in a hexdrinker and pump before he was able to slam his wren6. after getting it to 8 counters I just had to work through some cryptic commands but he was unable to race it in the end. g2 he gets stuck on 3 lands for a few extra turns and that probably shut the door. We trade elks and okos for a while as well but eventually I was able to play too many things. He was doing things but I know he had a couple 4 drops in hand which definitely would have changed the game. I don't think he had a real way to deal with my oko though. still was pretty close all things considering. I'm not sure how many lands he runs but I know decks that tend to have coatl, labe and wren6 tend to shave on lands so it's a thing that happens. While our decks are similar, I think Karn trumps wren6 in this kind of matchup.
5-1-1
Overall super happy with the list and can never complain with a finals finish even though I made some major booboos throughout the night. I want to add in a 3rd oko but unsure what to cut. Obvious choices are hexdrinker or karn. Both tho have been super good for me. 2 of hexdrinker just feels right, card is an insane late game threat. I got to lattice lock people 3 times throughout the night as well and he just finds things I need like pithing needle and explosives on top of liquimetal coating which works insane with oko being able to elk anything like walkers with coating.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
my only real critique would probably be -1 stubborn, +1 serum. I personally have almost always wanted the filtering vs the 4th denial as denial is sometimes really bad. I would also HIGHLY recommend 1-2 maelstrom pulse somewhere in your 75. You will find yourself having trouble killing 4+cmc cards. It really is one of the best catch-alls we can play.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
too bad there's no seamless way of being able to play both easily (counter + discard). There's just always going to be awkward times. I feel the slower your deck is the better counters are as you most likely don't have the pressure to get there before it's too late. With a consistent good clock, discard is better. It's possible i have this backwards, i dunno. I have always been partial to having discard g1 and counters in SB once I know exactly what I have to play against and any random card choices.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
2 hooting mandrills
2 tasigur, the golden fang
spells
4 serum visions
4 thought scour
2 spell snare
2 stubborn denial
4 cryptic command
4 fatal push
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 collective brutality
3 darkslick shores
2 creeping tar pit
2 breeding pool
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
1 forest
1 swamp
3 island
2 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
3 misty rainforest
2 countersquall
1 disdainful stroke
1 dispel
4 spreading seas
2 surgical extraction
1 engineered explosives
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, architect of thought
1 damnation
I'm not going to go too indepth in each match. I played against jund, bant eternal command, GW tron and GR tron. For reference, The last 4+ weeks I have been on sultai midrange, jund style deck and loved it. I had 4 top 8s in a row, one being a top 4. I just picked up cryptics and decided to give it a whirl. I went 0-4. Infact, I didn't even win a game. Not a single one. That hasn't happened to me in like 10+ years. I'm not 100% sure why. I didn't make any glaring mistakes although I'm sure my play wasn't super tight as I don't normally play counterspells. What the deck felt like was it just didn't do much. Sure I got to counter some spells but nothing seemed to line up right. I got flooded out a lot late game, didn't have enough threats or didn't have the counters I needed. It's hard to go 0-8 in games and not blame the deck though. I got out valued hard by bant command, he just always had counters to trump mine and got to use like infinity paths. Jund was jund and tron was tron. The lack of seas as I said was a real problem as I basically always lost to ugin's sanctum. my board was just eh vs tron. I think I'll give this build another run just to see but I'm not super impressed honestly. It's possible it was just a fluke week so I'm not going to rule that out.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
2 hooting mandrills
2 tasigur, the golden fang
spells
4 serum visions
4 thought scour
2 spell snare
2 stubborn denial
4 cryptic command
4 fatal push
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 go for the throat
3 darkslick shores
2 creeping tar pit
2 breeding pool
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
1 forest
1 swamp
3 island
2 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
3 misty rainforest
2 countersquall
1 disdainful stroke
1 dispel
4 spreading seas
2 surgical extraction
1 engineered explosives
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, architect of thought
1 collective brutality
thoughts: potentially huge dudes that avoid push. Cheap curve that bodes well with cryptic. I don't like how GY dependent it is. It's not as bad as it could be though.
next variant:
-2 mandrills
-2 denial
-1 thought scour
+3 dark confidant
+2 countersquall
thoughts: I actually really like this version. Lots of filtering and drawing potential. The biggest problem is 4 cryptic and 2 tasigur make bob pretty scary since there's no native life gain. It's possible it's not that big of a deal and there's enough filtering to make it only a rare chance.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
r1: grissholbrand
These were nervewracking games. game 1 thank the lord for the 2 stubborn denial. had 1 in my opener and it saved my ass. g2 i got WRECKED by t2 blood moon when i had 1 land. g3 he goes to combo but I counter then he pact of negations me...wtf? he then goes off and draws almost his whole deck. turns out the card he needed was in the bottom 2 of his library LOL well that was lucky.
1-0
r2: dredge
I keep really bad starting hands for some reason and get super punished. was dumb. g2 especially i had so much time to do anything but conflags killed everything. I see luck goes both ways haha
1-1
r3: mono red sun and moon
g1 I just dominate him and again stubborn denial wrecks his plan to shut me out with an early chalice. g2 blood moon yet again wrecks me on his t2. I got stuck on lands anyways but combines with that I have no chance. g3 we go back and forth some. I counter some of his lock pieces. I thought i was going to lose as I was racing his chandra poorly but eventually I was able to kill it, land a liliana and start going to town.
2-1
r4: abzan
very long story short we go to time in g3. We end with him way up on life but with only shambling vent and me with liliana and another in hand. He gives me the win. Some notable things in the match. g2 he tries to extraction push in response to snapcaster. I eat it with scooze. I'm surprised I saw that line to be honest as it was the first time it has ever come up. He didn't see it. felt both great and bad. I also got to extract his souls one game with him at 5 mana. presumably to cast removal or something. talk about getting punished.
3-1
I ended up making top 4! I certainly got lucky round 1 I will admit. This is my 3rd top 8 in a row with this deck with a 9th place the week before. I purchased countersqualls and cryptics so next week I will be trying out the cryptic build. I will certainly miss playing discard, flayer and liliana but will be nice to try something new. For the record, flayer and liliana have always been very good for me.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
if you are looking for sweet 3 mana cards, I've been testing a similar cryptic build with 1 clique and 2 tireless tracker. Trackers are not by any means an early play but good lord do they grind. I've been loving them although I am a bit biased as I just love that card. Still though, they work awesome with the push plan as you already want more fetches to accommodate push. They keep you in the habit of either not playing lands or waiting to crack fetches until you need to. If your meta is filled with very fast decks I wouldn't recommend them. In that case, eternal witness is probably better. Or even better, vengeful rebel
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
to other's commenting on how was FP. Most of the time it was great. There were times vs UW control I could not kill a finks or a resto. So be prepared it's not a end all be all removal spell like path.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster