Paradox Engine seems like a worthy card for testing. I’m only hesitant because I don’t find myself casting too many spells unless I’m dropping my combo and winning that turn. The nice thing is, we don’t have to go infinite to win a game with Krenko. If I can get one in trade, I’ll try it out too.
If you have a critical mass of mana rocks and a buyback spell (such as Shattering Pulse, Fanning the Flames, or Haze of Rage) then you could potentially combo off. Haze of Rage is particularly interesting as you can swing for infinite damage with a haste enabler pumping all the tokens.
Anyone have updates for their lists?? Here my most current list. I sacrificed most of my control elements for more combo enablers. Love some feedback if y'all have any.
I've been playing to lotr Battle for middle earth II for a year now and i fell in love with the goblin faction and its fast early gameplay.
I started magic four month ago and recently I decided to build a goblin commander budget deck. I didn't realize the power of Kranko as a commander (wich is now a very obvious choice ) so i built up my deck around Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician. I want to know if he's a good commander and, if i decided to turn this deck from budget to a OP broken deck, if I could.
Ib Halfheart has potential, but a better forum for ideas on his build might be here (which also happens to be recent). Overall, I think Krenko pumps out goblins more consistently and without the risk of a blowout.
Another thing you can do is not cast Krenko until you can protect him or use him immediately. Casting him off a Cavern of Souls with a haste enabler and other parts on board can win a game on the spot. With regards to spot removal, you can also wait until Krenko is targeted, then use his ability in response and go off; this will at least draw two removal spells from an opponents hand in order to stop you from comboing.
I don't know about Jay, but I don't care for Reforge the Soul in mono-red without a miracle enabler such as Sensei's Divining Top or Scroll Rack. The reason is that whenever I had it in hand, I didn't want to cast it because it tied up too much mana; and if I top decked it, I didn't want to cast it because of an important card in my hand. I do have one in my wish board for Burning Wish to find if I really need that effect, but I found just the original to be enough most games.
That being said, I have edited my list to run Scroll Rack to get card advantage between that and Madblind Mountain but I really have no idea what to cut for Reforge the Soul at this point as the list is very good as is in my opinion. I thought about dropping Nim Deathmantle, but as I've said, I found one Wheel effect to be enough and I can always wish for another.
Edit: I do like Reforge the Soul in UR or BR; it's always so nice to Vampiric Tutor at the EOT into a Wheel on your draw step
Grenzo is super interesting, I'd like to test him out as well. Seems like he can provide card draw at the expense of everyone else; super sweet. I was also looking at cutting Splinter Twin from my build, but I haven't yet. Mostly I feel like I can really get value off it. I'll leave it in for now, but it is on a list of things that could probably get replaced.
The main problem I have with Lightning Greaves is that you can't use certain untap effects with it equipped to Krenko. You can always just move it back and forth if you want to; but then you are opening him up to removal. Have you considered just running Shunt instead as it can just redirect that spot removal to a new target OR let you just use your opponents Time Stretch? Other considerations are the typical Fork, Reverberate, Reiterate, or Wild Ricochet but those only copy and don't protect him. Personally I just let him eat removal and recast since there are multiple haste enablers, but again, meta-dependent.
How do you feel about Goblin Gardener and/or Goblin Settler? Tutorable LD seems really solid, but I'm on the fence about it being a corner case most times. There are only about five lands I feel must get blown up, and only one that really stops us (Glacial Chasm) which mean just being conservative with our Strip Mine is probably enough. There is something to be said for throwing a Splinter Twin on either though...but then it feels like I'm justifying a card for another card.
So, the issue with Basilisk Collar in this deck is thanks to the various combos, it is rarely necessary. I'm more likely to find one of my pieces of untapping equipment. And, overall, it works best with Goblin Sharpshooter. As I mention about Sharpshooter, it takes advantage of all my death triggers to get plenty of kills in anyway.
Skirk Fire Marshal doesn't need it because if I'm casting him or using his ability, I've almost always won the game. The lifelink part is nice, and if you're going for a more battlecruiser magic style of play I'd say go for it. At minimum, you're gaining what, 70 life? That's awesome.
I agree that meta and playstyle have a lot to do with a commander deck. I enjoy winning big with the Skirk Fire Marshal and Basilisk Collar together, but the creature removal I gain off the Sharpshooter synergy is valuable in my brew due to the limited answers I run for spot removal in that deck.
I've had no problems with Ashling's Prerogative and Kiki-Jiki. Kiki-Jiki tends to be a back-up win con behind Krenko anyway, so the bonus it gives Krenko and the tokens way outweighs the chances of a drawback with Kiki-Jiki.
If I know I'm going for a Kiki-Jiki strategy, I generally won't play it (for instance, if Kiki-Jiki is in my opening hand).
Thank you for the insight, I'll definitely work it into my build. I also noticed that you don't run Anger, is that just because there isn't room or do you have another reason (i.e, mass grave hate in your play group). I've never had any major issues running him, he's great for a discard to Rummaging Goblin or Wheel, and I've even Gambled for him with only one card in hand before just to put him into the graveyard
Those are legit strategies, although I'm not sure there are enough low-cost artifacts to justify Mox Opal. Diamond and Lotus Petal are fine, but I fine that a consistent turn 4 Krenko tends to work out nicely for me, supposing I use the first three turns wisely. From a purely politics perspective, my opponents knowing I can't rush out Krenko means I'm never an immediate priority, but a T1 Krenko is basically a death sentence. This is highly dependent on your meta, however. Early Krenko is sweet, but only if you can survive, and you need a minimum of four of the cards in your opening hand dedicated to getting Krenko out that early, which I've found hurts your mid-game, especially if there is a Wrath turn four or five you've blown your entire opening hand.
This kinda fits right into the reasons I like having a lot of card draw in my brew. Running out an early Krenko with enough mana to cast him again when he gets removed then refilling my hand off a wheel effect or other draw outlet is enough to stay in a game. Also, those wheel effects early on can really hunt your opponents (or help them, so be the power of Mountain). I've had games go T1, mountain, sol ring, mox ~, goblin or useful enchantment/equipment, T2, land, one drop, wheel and forced my opponents to discard their opening hands (effectively). Sure, it doesn't happen every game and I don't always run Krenko out on T2 or 3 with a fast start like that, but the potential is huge.
Another card draw engine I failed to mention earlier is Scroll Rack+Madblind Mountain or your fetch lands (which can actually fetch Madblind Mountain!) it's more card selection instead of draw but again, you can dig deep if you need to finish the game.
Your points on Squee make me sad, but looking back on a few games I know you are correct. I have had a few games where Squee just sits in my hand or I cast and Skullclamp him away to draw some cards without a lot of value. I may look at cutting him from my list and see how much I miss him.
Some other points I want to make after re-reading the primer. I really like Outpost Siege. You don't play it because of the curve, which is understandable, but I would like to point out that it says, "Whenever a creature you control leaves the battlefield, ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player." This effect is pretty significate in my opinion as it means an opponent can't Cyclonic Rift your board without getting punched in the face. It's also nice to gain the ability to target creature or players as the other options Krenko typically run only hit players. Additionally, you can get some card advantage off it in a pinch but I have never used it for that.
Also, I used to run Sword of the Paruns but I really never liked it over Staff of Domination. I pulled the equipment out and replaced it as soon as I could get a copy of the latter. The Staff gives you options in a limited color. The "Tap a creature" ability has been relevant for me on more than one occasion. Also, once you are able to make infinite mana, but can't close out the game due to lack of a passive or direct damage enabler OR lack of haste, you can pour that mana into drawing what you need to draw to win. Overall, I feel like the Staff is better for an untap effect due to the versatility it provides. At the vary least I think it should be mentioned in the Primer as an option for people looking to build a Combo Krenko deck.
For haste enablers I'm worried about Ashling's Prerogative not working well with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, how has it worked for you? Also, I really like running Mass Hysteria as a one drop haste enabler, the global effect doesn't seem relevant for my meta.
For non-budget builds, what do you think about Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, and/or Lotus Pedal? The fast mana can lead to a quick T2/3 Krenko and get to churning little green men much faster. Just my thoughts as I really like getting him out early and going for it.
Lastly, red has always had issues with card draw/card advantage which is why it can't hang in a late game so well, here are my solutions for your consideration:
1. Memory Jar - This is just straight gas. With our low curve we can generally just play the hand we draw and force our opponents to effectively mill seven.
2. Slate of Ancestry - I usually win the turn I activate this. Even if you just use it to dig deeper for answers or combo pieces it is fantastic.
3. Humber Defector+Homeward Path - This is just repeatable card draw that gets better with untap effects and really helps with early game politics.
4. Rummaging Goblin+Squee, Goblin Nabob - Again, repeatable card draw with no downside, what's better is using it with Rings to discard Squee and draw two cards
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BUT, that’s not to say there isn’t potential infinite combos using the Engine. Skirk Prospector + Cloudstone Curio + Paradox Engine + Krenko, Mob Boss is infinite. Any haste enabler could replace Paradox Engine. On a side note, Mogg War Marshal or Siege-gang Commander works in the combo without the need for the Engine.
If you have a critical mass of mana rocks and a buyback spell (such as Shattering Pulse, Fanning the Flames, or Haze of Rage) then you could potentially combo off. Haze of Rage is particularly interesting as you can swing for infinite damage with a haste enabler pumping all the tokens.
Isochron Scepter + any ritual (Brightstone Ritual and Battle Hymn generally finding a way into the deck anyway) will allow us to go infinite with Paradox Engine. I generally don’t want to run Isochron Scepter with only one or two cards to potentially imprint, but it’s a combo.
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Buried Ruin
1x Homeward Path
1x Madblind Mountain
25x Mountain
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Strip Mine
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Wooded Foothills
CREATURES:
1x Anger
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Chirurgeon
1x Goblin Gardener
1x Goblin Matron
1x Goblin Recruiter
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Sledder
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Warchief
1x Goblin Welder
1x Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1x Humble Defector
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Lightning Crafter
1x Mogg War Marshal
1x Moggcatcher
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Rummaging Goblin
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Fire Marshal
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Treasonous Ogre
1x Zealous Conscripts
1x Altar of Dementia
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Coat of Arms
1x Expedition Map
1x Gauntlet of Might
1x Hammer of Purphoros
1x Lifeline
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Echoes
1x Mana Vault
1x Memory Jar
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Ruby Medallion
1x Scroll Rack
1x Skullclamp
1x Slate of Ancestry
1x Sol Ring
1x Staff of Domination
1x Thornbite Staff
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
1x Umbral Mantle
1x Ashling's Prerogative
1x Blood Moon
1x Boggart Shenanigans
1x Burning Wish
1x Gamble
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Impact Tremors
1x Mass Hysteria
1x Outpost Siege
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Stranglehold
1x Warp World
1x Wheel of Fortune
Ib Halfheart has potential, but a better forum for ideas on his build might be here (which also happens to be recent). Overall, I think Krenko pumps out goblins more consistently and without the risk of a blowout.
That being said, I have edited my list to run Scroll Rack to get card advantage between that and Madblind Mountain but I really have no idea what to cut for Reforge the Soul at this point as the list is very good as is in my opinion. I thought about dropping Nim Deathmantle, but as I've said, I found one Wheel effect to be enough and I can always wish for another.
Edit: I do like Reforge the Soul in UR or BR; it's always so nice to Vampiric Tutor at the EOT into a Wheel on your draw step
The main problem I have with Lightning Greaves is that you can't use certain untap effects with it equipped to Krenko. You can always just move it back and forth if you want to; but then you are opening him up to removal. Have you considered just running Shunt instead as it can just redirect that spot removal to a new target OR let you just use your opponents Time Stretch? Other considerations are the typical Fork, Reverberate, Reiterate, or Wild Ricochet but those only copy and don't protect him. Personally I just let him eat removal and recast since there are multiple haste enablers, but again, meta-dependent.
How do you feel about Goblin Gardener and/or Goblin Settler? Tutorable LD seems really solid, but I'm on the fence about it being a corner case most times. There are only about five lands I feel must get blown up, and only one that really stops us (Glacial Chasm) which mean just being conservative with our Strip Mine is probably enough. There is something to be said for throwing a Splinter Twin on either though...but then it feels like I'm justifying a card for another card.
I agree that meta and playstyle have a lot to do with a commander deck. I enjoy winning big with the Skirk Fire Marshal and Basilisk Collar together, but the creature removal I gain off the Sharpshooter synergy is valuable in my brew due to the limited answers I run for spot removal in that deck.
Thank you for the insight, I'll definitely work it into my build. I also noticed that you don't run Anger, is that just because there isn't room or do you have another reason (i.e, mass grave hate in your play group). I've never had any major issues running him, he's great for a discard to Rummaging Goblin or Wheel, and I've even Gambled for him with only one card in hand before just to put him into the graveyard
This kinda fits right into the reasons I like having a lot of card draw in my brew. Running out an early Krenko with enough mana to cast him again when he gets removed then refilling my hand off a wheel effect or other draw outlet is enough to stay in a game. Also, those wheel effects early on can really hunt your opponents (or help them, so be the power of Mountain). I've had games go T1, mountain, sol ring, mox ~, goblin or useful enchantment/equipment, T2, land, one drop, wheel and forced my opponents to discard their opening hands (effectively). Sure, it doesn't happen every game and I don't always run Krenko out on T2 or 3 with a fast start like that, but the potential is huge.
Another card draw engine I failed to mention earlier is Scroll Rack+Madblind Mountain or your fetch lands (which can actually fetch Madblind Mountain!) it's more card selection instead of draw but again, you can dig deep if you need to finish the game.
Your points on Squee make me sad, but looking back on a few games I know you are correct. I have had a few games where Squee just sits in my hand or I cast and Skullclamp him away to draw some cards without a lot of value. I may look at cutting him from my list and see how much I miss him.
Some other points I want to make after re-reading the primer. I really like Outpost Siege. You don't play it because of the curve, which is understandable, but I would like to point out that it says, "Whenever a creature you control leaves the battlefield, ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player." This effect is pretty significate in my opinion as it means an opponent can't Cyclonic Rift your board without getting punched in the face. It's also nice to gain the ability to target creature or players as the other options Krenko typically run only hit players. Additionally, you can get some card advantage off it in a pinch but I have never used it for that.
Also, I used to run Sword of the Paruns but I really never liked it over Staff of Domination. I pulled the equipment out and replaced it as soon as I could get a copy of the latter. The Staff gives you options in a limited color. The "Tap a creature" ability has been relevant for me on more than one occasion. Also, once you are able to make infinite mana, but can't close out the game due to lack of a passive or direct damage enabler OR lack of haste, you can pour that mana into drawing what you need to draw to win. Overall, I feel like the Staff is better for an untap effect due to the versatility it provides. At the vary least I think it should be mentioned in the Primer as an option for people looking to build a Combo Krenko deck.
For haste enablers I'm worried about Ashling's Prerogative not working well with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, how has it worked for you? Also, I really like running Mass Hysteria as a one drop haste enabler, the global effect doesn't seem relevant for my meta.
For non-budget builds, what do you think about Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, and/or Lotus Pedal? The fast mana can lead to a quick T2/3 Krenko and get to churning little green men much faster. Just my thoughts as I really like getting him out early and going for it.
Lastly, red has always had issues with card draw/card advantage which is why it can't hang in a late game so well, here are my solutions for your consideration:
1. Memory Jar - This is just straight gas. With our low curve we can generally just play the hand we draw and force our opponents to effectively mill seven.
2. Slate of Ancestry - I usually win the turn I activate this. Even if you just use it to dig deeper for answers or combo pieces it is fantastic.
3. Humber Defector+Homeward Path - This is just repeatable card draw that gets better with untap effects and really helps with early game politics.
4. Rummaging Goblin+Squee, Goblin Nabob - Again, repeatable card draw with no downside, what's better is using it with Rings to discard Squee and draw two cards