The thing about blood moon IMO is i am in doubt i can close the game fast enough before they can recover from the moon. I like me molten rains coupled with a well timed extraction to permanently(ish?) deal with the land threat. I thought about crumble but it does not beat the nuts.
I dont see how molten rain in that situation would not also close up the game.
For the same reason FMage doesn't, because they can simply search for another land with Stirrings, Scrying, Map and eggs. Also, a turn4/5 FMage does much less than a turn3 one, while a turn4/5 Moon with two islands and a Swamp allows us to slow them while we play normally.
If you have gotten to turn 5 before u drew moon you already lost, unless you had a clean answer for all 3 turns that elapsed with tron online, which is doubtful. It is possible to delver turn 1 and moon turn 3 and still lose, so long as you don't have the threats to close up. In that scenario, I'd just rather not include enchantments that don't flip delver, are useless in multiples, and don't reduce the opponent life total. (not sure why FMage was brought up as I didn't mention it at all, its a different animal from Rain)
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The thing about blood moon IMO is i am in doubt i can close the game fast enough before they can recover from the moon. I like me molten rains coupled with a well timed extraction to permanently(ish?) deal with the land threat. I thought about crumble but it does not beat the nuts.
This is exactly why I stopped using blood moon and switched to moltens and/or crumbles. Moon slows them down but not so significantly that our low threat density can close before the first wurmcoil. Also worth noting is that any early Delvers plunked down can be pyroclasmed and one does not have any og the maindeck 6-10 counterspells on hand. Blood Moon is great if you have at least 2 threats pushing the clock, like turn 1 delver turn 2 tas turn 3 moon would be ideal. But again I dont see how molten rain in that situation would not also close up the game.
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Ive been using counterbore lately and am very pleased, as for tron,spreading seas is my card of choice recently,I MB two since I am commandless and have two sb.
how many lands do you run? a 5 cmc counter is quite a stretch for this deck. Also, doesn't having 2 enchantments squeeze your instant/sorcery count and delver flip %?
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Yeah lol, although it think it's fair to wonder if Peezy is still a worthwhile include for the deck, it has to be a serious discussion about his playability. The reddit modern forum was hating him the other day and some of the things they were saying got a bit ridiculous.
Agreed that it's fair to consider cutting or modifying his number, but at least stick with legit arguments.
Also, I wouldn't really put too much trust in Reddit's opinion of anything. Let the facts speak for themselves: virtually every single well-placed Grixis Delver list (Excepting Overturf) in the past couple months has been lists with Young Pyromancer. Maybe a YP-less version now might be good, but since my initial posts thinking of going for a more Overturf build, I've changed my mind and still plan on keeping 2 in my list.
That YP is bad when played on curve is a legitimate argument against it. This and the consideration that it's a bad top-deck should give anyone pause.
The argument that it's good with counter-magic backup is specious at best. What isn't?
No, I don't think it's (the poor on curve critique) a legitimate argument because always taking a card's spot on the curve as the CMC on the upper right hand corner of the card is wrong. Pyromancer's spot on the curve would be 2 if u lined it up in xmage or cockatrice or w/e, but its really not the "real curve". Other good examples of this are Abbot of Keral Keep and Snapcaster mage. Does it make sense to play these on turn 2 and then complain that they suck on curve? No, it would be ridiculous because its quite plain to see that these guys aren't meant to be paid for using your last 2 mana, which is your only mana on turn 2. (side note: this is why so many people find abbot clunky, because they're all tied up in that upper right corner and trying desperately to cast him early, instead of understanding he has to be built around, just like delver)
The argument that it's good with countermagic is valid - you save tasigur or angler or delver with countermagic, they're alive but still exactly the same for your efforts. You save YP with countermagic, you have another 1/1. I thought this was straightforward enough that it didn't need elaboration.
inb4 why are u arguing so hard for yp: I'm not a HUUUGE fan of YP, but I acknowledge he can run away with games that go beyond turn 4. I'm not so into him that I want to run 4 and I have previously cut him totally, and at the peak I've run 3 (presently it's 2). I just feel that the arguments against YP are getting ridiculous (oh, he dies to bolt without value if u play him turn 2). The not-so-secret modern standard for a creature to be viable is that it provides value even if it gets removed the turn its played. It should be fairly obvious to even a moderately competent player that YP is not to be played "on curve".
Oh come on. When someone taps out to cast a fragile threat that's powerful when unanswered and it gets killed, its not the threat's fault.
At the very least tell me you inquisition T1 to check if the coast is clear before you tap out and put peezy on the board. Starting with "T2: young pyro-" is just a display of poor play, not a poor card.
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Some people aren't "hybrid" people, and that's perfectly OK. Certain mages are just wired to go "all-in". If I'm playing control, I am. If I'm going aggro, I am. Delver AND 20 lands with countermagic? Halfway feels awkward.
Myself, I like hybrids. I like being able to adjust on the fly. I acknowledge and accept that I won't be as consistent as a specialist, but I like the fact I can handle more situations, albeit not as well. I liked Overturf's list but I didn't play 20 lands maindeck: the 20th land (lighthouse) sat in my sideboard, and came in with AV for attrition games. This applies to even when I play elves - I like both GB Shaman and GW Toolbox, so I play Abzan elves with fetches and mix 3 shamans with skite and rec sage.
I played grixis control following the ban of twin (i was on grixis twin) and I can vouch for the fact that grixis control has issues with closing games, especially if you didn't draw a manland. AV maybe helps now in drawing threats or answers for leftover opponent's threats, but the general "can't close this" feel is there. Having a 3/2 flier you can plunk down for a 1 mana investment just feels right.
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Hallo to the Grixis Delver community. Recently I managed to acquire 4 Snapcasters to finish my Grixis Delver list and now try to find out the insides of the deck. I want to know your opinions regarding a specific opening line of play so here it goes ... I keep a one lander with Serum and Delver, which one I play first? The Delver to have a chance to flip it or the Serum Vision to improve the probabilities of hitting my second land ?
Congrats for this great thread.
Definitely serum visions first if its a one lander. You don't want to miss land drops in modern. Additionally, I would assume this one lander has other 1 cmc spells such as bolt or scour. If you can hit the second land by turn 2 via scry or draw from visions, it would let you drop the delver turn 2 and keep 1 mana up for interaction, mitigating the risk on your one land keep.
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I've been thinking on Telling Time for a while as a possible card to slot in, but it never outclassed the other options. Now with Probe banned, I'm reconsidering this again for making Delver flips in the midgame a lot more assured (as well as bottoming excess lands).
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Besides it seems counter-intuitive to think that playing Fulminator on turn 3 and then attacking and cracking him on turn 4 is fast enough, but turn 4 Crumble is too slow. If crumble on turn 4 is too slow Fulminator isn't going to get the job done.
You can crack him the turn you play him. If they're behind on Tron lands, then he swings in until they hit their second.
Rain is likely better since flipping Delver ASAP is really important to the deck, of course.
Yes of course. But what I'm saying is that if you're making the argument of Fulminator being a good beater you have to acknowledge that he won't be destroying any lands on turn 3
The point is that you have the option to do either. If my opponent goes Grove/Brushland into Tron piece and I'm on the play then I have the option to beat down with my Fulminator a bit. This gets more relevant if they miss land drops or make irrelevant land drops, which Tron sometimes does. If they do go Tron piece into Tron piece, you can play and sac immediately.
and if you do use him on turn 3 instantly then he's a strictly worse molten rain.
Fulminator costs R/B and R/B, not RR. He can't be strictly worse even if you use him turn 3 immediately because he's easier to cast than Molten Rain.
If the scenario is firing off lande on turn 3 against tron, 1RR is no more difficult to achieve than 1RB/1RR/1BB. Fetching and shocking twice is perfectly fine when facing tron. We're the ones counting to twenty, and they just want their Tron online. So I don't feel like the casting cost is strong argument for fulminator in this specific scenario.
On a separate note, the odds of snap-rain are higher than kommand-fulminator given the numbers of snap:kommand. And of course, someone has already pointed out that rain flips delver. And a flipped Delver contributes significantly to beating Tron if at all.
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I don't understand all this talk about Surgical Extraction against Jund and not being able to deal with Tarmogoyfs.
The deck has Terminate, EE, Spell Snare and Snapcasters to flash them back. Also Tasigurs and Gurmags to bounce off them, YP tokens to chump. Goyfs just shouldn't be a problem.
That's because its not a vacuum where you have your entire library in your hand and they have just the goyf. They inquisition your bolt turn 1, play a bob turn 2, you spend your terminate on that, then they play lily turn 3 and uptick, your hand is nearly gone, and THEN the goyf comes down and they leave up mana for terminate/decay for your own threats.
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Yahenni's is quite squarely a Control card and not Delver. It hits so many of our threats - pyros and delvers - and the cmc is beyond your typical land count by the end of your typical game. AV isn't mainboarded for Delver, and not even a sideboard staple for all, and that's arguably one of the best cards you can chain off of Expertise with. I'm excited to play Control with this new toy, but definitely not Delver. For all intents and purposes, Anger is the wipe that's relevant to Delver in terms of speed and that exile clause, if at all.
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Remand is really a placeholder for more specific answers like Countersquall or Dreadbore which come in after we know what our opponent is trying to do. Because it cantrips and catches anything (except 0 cost stuff), its the favored plan A answer, because our plan A is beating them to death before they can develop their board. Against highly efficient decks, it can be hard to wield. Catching a cranial plating or blighted agent works, but Remand definitely comes out postboard for more... suitable answers.
Unless what they are trying to do is Living End. Then Remand should stay. There might be a few other match-ups as well. It's actually pretty sweet against anything that Delves.
Well yea there are definitely situations where Remand can shine. I also keep remand in against blue durdle decks (works wonders against AV and remanding your own spell that's being targeted by Cryptic Command).
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Remand is really a placeholder for more specific answers like Countersquall or Dreadbore which come in after we know what our opponent is trying to do. Because it cantrips and catches anything (except 0 cost stuff), its the favored plan A answer, because our plan A is beating them to death before they can develop their board. Against highly efficient decks, it can be hard to wield. Catching a cranial plating or blighted agent works, but Remand definitely comes out postboard for more... suitable answers.
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Hey guys! I know this list is very unconventional for Grxis delver, but I'd like to share it.
I have gone 4-0 for the past 3 weeks at my LGS FNM's and have had succes against many modern decks ( valakut.dredge.infect.death and taxes. Abzan. Control) .
The deck works by playing hand hate early game then following up with attrition and creature removal. You also run many redundant spells to see your opponents hand constantly.
The main idea is to delay early game and play lots of instants/ sorceress as well as loose life. Then when you and your opponent are both at low or no cards. U follow up with a bedlam reveler. Discard usually 1 or 0 cards then draw 3.
We are a suicide deck so deaths shadow can easily close up games but the life loss mechanic is optional . Against burn we choose to pay for our probes and fetches as to not take to much damage to fast . Anyway lemme know what you think!
Well, firstly, your deck is not unconventional, Grixis Death's Shadow has been around; its a thing. nice deck, by the way.
Secondly, Grixis Delver is not a suicide deck. Its manabase was pretty suicidal before UR fastlands, but that's a downside rather than an objective. We have capitalized on it in Burn match ups by having Death's Shadow in the side, but again, that's more of improvising rather than the intended outcome.
Your deck is built specifically to move toward the low life total while the Delver decks are playing fairly with theirs. Incidentally, I am surprised to see zero copies of Temur Battle Rage. That's the spell that makes Death Shadow so scary. I can understand not playing 4, but zero seems to be giving up the best part of playing Shadow.
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If you have gotten to turn 5 before u drew moon you already lost, unless you had a clean answer for all 3 turns that elapsed with tron online, which is doubtful. It is possible to delver turn 1 and moon turn 3 and still lose, so long as you don't have the threats to close up. In that scenario, I'd just rather not include enchantments that don't flip delver, are useless in multiples, and don't reduce the opponent life total. (not sure why FMage was brought up as I didn't mention it at all, its a different animal from Rain)
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This is exactly why I stopped using blood moon and switched to moltens and/or crumbles. Moon slows them down but not so significantly that our low threat density can close before the first wurmcoil. Also worth noting is that any early Delvers plunked down can be pyroclasmed and one does not have any og the maindeck 6-10 counterspells on hand. Blood Moon is great if you have at least 2 threats pushing the clock, like turn 1 delver turn 2 tas turn 3 moon would be ideal. But again I dont see how molten rain in that situation would not also close up the game.
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there is no limit per se. but u can be called out for delaying/slow play. Especially if you won round 1.
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how many lands do you run? a 5 cmc counter is quite a stretch for this deck. Also, doesn't having 2 enchantments squeeze your instant/sorcery count and delver flip %?
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No, I don't think it's (the poor on curve critique) a legitimate argument because always taking a card's spot on the curve as the CMC on the upper right hand corner of the card is wrong. Pyromancer's spot on the curve would be 2 if u lined it up in xmage or cockatrice or w/e, but its really not the "real curve". Other good examples of this are Abbot of Keral Keep and Snapcaster mage. Does it make sense to play these on turn 2 and then complain that they suck on curve? No, it would be ridiculous because its quite plain to see that these guys aren't meant to be paid for using your last 2 mana, which is your only mana on turn 2. (side note: this is why so many people find abbot clunky, because they're all tied up in that upper right corner and trying desperately to cast him early, instead of understanding he has to be built around, just like delver)
The argument that it's good with countermagic is valid - you save tasigur or angler or delver with countermagic, they're alive but still exactly the same for your efforts. You save YP with countermagic, you have another 1/1. I thought this was straightforward enough that it didn't need elaboration.
inb4 why are u arguing so hard for yp: I'm not a HUUUGE fan of YP, but I acknowledge he can run away with games that go beyond turn 4. I'm not so into him that I want to run 4 and I have previously cut him totally, and at the peak I've run 3 (presently it's 2). I just feel that the arguments against YP are getting ridiculous (oh, he dies to bolt without value if u play him turn 2). The not-so-secret modern standard for a creature to be viable is that it provides value even if it gets removed the turn its played. It should be fairly obvious to even a moderately competent player that YP is not to be played "on curve".
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At the very least tell me you inquisition T1 to check if the coast is clear before you tap out and put peezy on the board. Starting with "T2: young pyro-" is just a display of poor play, not a poor card.
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Myself, I like hybrids. I like being able to adjust on the fly. I acknowledge and accept that I won't be as consistent as a specialist, but I like the fact I can handle more situations, albeit not as well. I liked Overturf's list but I didn't play 20 lands maindeck: the 20th land (lighthouse) sat in my sideboard, and came in with AV for attrition games. This applies to even when I play elves - I like both GB Shaman and GW Toolbox, so I play Abzan elves with fetches and mix 3 shamans with skite and rec sage.
I played grixis control following the ban of twin (i was on grixis twin) and I can vouch for the fact that grixis control has issues with closing games, especially if you didn't draw a manland. AV maybe helps now in drawing threats or answers for leftover opponent's threats, but the general "can't close this" feel is there. Having a 3/2 flier you can plunk down for a 1 mana investment just feels right.
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Definitely serum visions first if its a one lander. You don't want to miss land drops in modern. Additionally, I would assume this one lander has other 1 cmc spells such as bolt or scour. If you can hit the second land by turn 2 via scry or draw from visions, it would let you drop the delver turn 2 and keep 1 mana up for interaction, mitigating the risk on your one land keep.
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If the scenario is firing off lande on turn 3 against tron, 1RR is no more difficult to achieve than 1RB/1RR/1BB. Fetching and shocking twice is perfectly fine when facing tron. We're the ones counting to twenty, and they just want their Tron online. So I don't feel like the casting cost is strong argument for fulminator in this specific scenario.
On a separate note, the odds of snap-rain are higher than kommand-fulminator given the numbers of snap:kommand. And of course, someone has already pointed out that rain flips delver. And a flipped Delver contributes significantly to beating Tron if at all.
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That's because its not a vacuum where you have your entire library in your hand and they have just the goyf. They inquisition your bolt turn 1, play a bob turn 2, you spend your terminate on that, then they play lily turn 3 and uptick, your hand is nearly gone, and THEN the goyf comes down and they leave up mana for terminate/decay for your own threats.
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Well yea there are definitely situations where Remand can shine. I also keep remand in against blue durdle decks (works wonders against AV and remanding your own spell that's being targeted by Cryptic Command).
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Well, firstly, your deck is not unconventional, Grixis Death's Shadow has been around; its a thing. nice deck, by the way.
Secondly, Grixis Delver is not a suicide deck. Its manabase was pretty suicidal before UR fastlands, but that's a downside rather than an objective. We have capitalized on it in Burn match ups by having Death's Shadow in the side, but again, that's more of improvising rather than the intended outcome.
Your deck is built specifically to move toward the low life total while the Delver decks are playing fairly with theirs. Incidentally, I am surprised to see zero copies of Temur Battle Rage. That's the spell that makes Death Shadow so scary. I can understand not playing 4, but zero seems to be giving up the best part of playing Shadow.
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