Guess i will be trying out Censor as a 1-off in my list. Hope it doesn't work out as bad as it looks although my hopes are pretty low on that card. Why couldn't they just make it a miscalculation?
I replaced my 2 mana leaks with 2 Censor. It's really not as bad as I thought it would be, but yes, them not printing Miscalculation was, well, a miscalculation. It's every bit as good as Mana Leak from turns 2-4 vs most decks as they attempt to curve out, and I've had some cool turns where you can cycle it after flipping it on a Delver, as well as being able to blow out someone by Snapcastering a previously cycled Censor.
What about dropping the Anglers for Bone Picker? It lets you leave more stuff in the yard for Snapcaster and Tasigur delves while also keeping you spell density high for Delver flips and removal spells.
Lol, here's a funny thing I was thinking of this morning:
Then you'd have to have a lot more kill spells to make it work, but you could feasibly start running more fatal push and terminate. However, a T2 Fatal Push + Bone Picker could be a pretty sweet play. Young Pyromancer helps turn on Bone Picker more often.
FWIW, Delver-Shadow has sucked so hard for me that I may switch back quite soon.
Care to post your list? It could also be a meta issue. Mine tended to be pretty solid since there was a lot of combo and big mana decks.
:edit:
You know, if you're looking for a new card to slot into Grixis Delver... Bone Picker might be your guy. Only dies to a Revolted Fatal Push, and from what I'm hearing, Lightning Bolt is on the decline as the removal spell of choice. Also our deck is chock full of removal so I can't see any serious problems with it except vs combo and control decks, where YP is much better.
So what do you think about By Force? for artifact hate sb i mean
By Force seems mad decent if you're in an artifact heavy meta. I'm not too worried about Affinity given we already have low-cost removal and Kolaghan's Command plus Snapcaster Mage.
Also regarding enigma drake - yeah it's not very good in Grixis Delver. But something I've been pondering is a Delver deck with Cryptic Serpent and Bedlam Reveler. Enigma Drake could be quite good there too.
Pyro Delver users , how do you guys sideboard against Death Shadow?
Just getting tired to lose
For starers I usually side in Blood Moon against them. Killing mana that produces B really hurts them. I will usually bring in my Engineered Explosives because getting it one X =1 is pretty easy for us. Any and all creature hate cards I would bring it against that deck. Surgical Extraction is pretty against them as well for hitting a key piece in the graveyard. Fatal Push is the hero in these matchups.
What cards do you usually side out for this matchup?
All of your countermagic. Death Shadow decks generally run at least 6-8 pieces of targeted discard and your counters start to look really crappy against that.
Btw, regarding Harsh Mentor - seems like a cool sideboard card as a 1 of. I'm not as convinced of the hype as some people. Realistically, it really will just hit fetches and acts more like a clock than as a piece of control. It's badass vs Lantern though lol
I'll pick up a couple when he hits $5.
Also, call me crazy, but regarding Censor - I want to try it as a 2 of in the deck somewhere. I'll probably replace a single Mana Leak and a single Thought Scour with 2 just to see how it does. Will let y'all know how it goes.
Hm... I hadn't considered that. Might need to make some room for her in my list. BB is more achievable than ever in my current manabase, so it might be worth a try.
Word, she essentially takes the place of the Electrolyze in the list you posted last page. 😋 I think you'll like her!
I've been considering adding Liliana, the Last Hope to my deck, either as a sideboard option or a potential mainboard threat. Has using Liliana been good in the deck? I've been itching to play Grixis Delver lately after playing Dredge lately and the idea of using Liliana, the Last Hope is very tempting.
Liliana is very good in this deck. I said this earlier in the thread:
[Liliana grants all the following:]removal vs tokens and Lingering Souls with her +1 (Thought-knot Seer in particular becomes a 2/3 and thus killable by a Lightning Bolt), recurring threats and enhancing delve with her -2, and let's not forget that Gurmag Angler is a Zombie for her -7.
In short, she strengthens all avenues of the Delver game plan and helps break midrange matches by providing serious value.
Liliana has recently been a powerful sideboard option, but I think moving her to the main is the way to go. I've replaced Young Pyromancer with her and her abilities are all incredibly useful for us. Her plus takes care of public enemy number one for Grixis (Lingering Souls) and deals with smaller creatures, so we can save our removal for more important threats. Her minus helps us grind out other midrangey decks and stock up the graveyard for snapcaster and our delve threats. If we can protect the queen long enough, her ultimate is an auto win against a lot of decks. I would love to hear your thoughts on my list and Lily in the main.
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
👏👏👏👏👏
Great deck, and let me just say that I'm super happy to see that more people are realizing how badass Liliana, the Last Hope is in a Grixis Delver shell. My one small critique is I'm really not a fan of the basic mountain in Delver lists - I'd instead try a second Darkslick Shores. Other than that, very cool list. Let us know how it does!
Double-B casting costs - even in the side-board - definitely indicate additional, fetch-able B-sources. With such costs, it's desirable to have a second Swamp to fetch but I don't think one can afford that in Grixis Delver.
Grixis Delver can most definitely afford additional fetchable swamps especially if you are running more Fatal Push and/or if it is a meta call, as was the case with my sideboard.
I am only running the 8 fetches currently because I don't quite yet know how much I can afford to lose to myself. I can see adding two more in to help fuel delve. Will make that change adding another tarn and delta cutting a spirebluff and blood crypt? I actually pulled 2 young pyros to put in 2 remands last minute. Never playing the deck live I wasn't completely set on which way to go. Maybe I'll pull the two spell snares for the two young pyromancers. Again, the spell snares just never felt great in hand. Also, didn't see a single push against me all night, and only played against one deck that even could play it anyway. Meta at my LGS is super diverse so I'm not terribly concerned about seeing push anyway as only roughly 1/4 of the decks are jund/junk/grixis.
I would keep Blood Crypt. Spirebluff Canal and Darkslick Shores are the flex spots. One might argue about the second Island. Folks seem to be sold on two copies of Watery Grave these days. I think three fetch-able B sources is okay so I haven't yet went for the second Grave but I seem to be in the minority here.
Keep in mind that one needn't always fetch shock-lands. Often, only one such land need be fetched in a game. Also, after the first few turns, one can fetch EoT to reduce damage. After three or four mana are available, one needn't fetch again unless and until it's necessary.
The point in having more is to be sure to have them early.
I think running two copies of Watery Grave (and Steam Vents) is largely a concession to Thought Scour. Milling yourself out of setting up your manabase can absolutely cripple your ability to play spells when you need them.
I'd say this is definitely the main reason. A secondary reason comes down to the type of sideboard you're running - in my traditional Grixis Delver list I had both Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Liliana, the Last Hope in the sideboard and they're very black mana heavy.
I don't see what Delver adds to the Jund shell. It's an inconsistent threat that dies to lightning bolt (which your threats are otherwise immune to) and forces you to play less of the cards that make Death's Shadow, Tarmogoyf, and Traverse the Ulvenwald consistently very good. The 4th color is interesting because Stubborn Denial and Snapcaster Mage solve lots of problems (at the cost of creating others of course), but an inconsistent one drop that is at odds with the rest of the shell is not attractive.
Having played over 30 matches with the deck, Delver adds a flying threat to the Jund shell - although I truly wouldn't call it a Jund shell as much as it is a fusion of Grixis and Jund, and in many ways an evolution of RUG Delver. The deck is also very consistent with a lot of draw power - the first Traverse generally can go get you a land, and you also have the Serum Visions to set up future draws. It has a lot of reach with 2 Tarfire as well as 4 Bolt (something the other decks lack), and personally, Bolt isn't a huge deal since in longer games I'd rather have the Bolt aimed at my Delver than at my own life total.
It's true that Delver doesn't turn on Stubborn Denial, and this can sometimes be an issue. Luckily, we also have Mana Leak in addition to the Thoughtseizes. Also, regarding the Rise//Fall, it definitely is not good against big mana decks, I will agree with you there. Thanksfully, you can use it to recur and reuse Snapcasters with the Rise mode. It's certainly not a great card, but is serviceable.
If you've been watching Michael Major's stream, a really neat card that I picked up a few up back in the day but never really used was Rise // Fall. A lot of the top decks in modern run very few lands (especially Death's Shadow decks) so a lot of times it can be a Hymn to Tourach. The Rise mode is also insane - it provides a ton of value in drawn out matchups with the ability to return a Snapcaster as well as a dead DS or even another Snapcaster.
Where is his stream?
Thought I had it in there - https://www.twitch.tv/mmajors
You'll have to skip through a couple of his streams since he also does cube and standard, but he has a lot of really cool videos and a very strong Grixis Shadow list. Highly recommended.
I know he posted it a little earlier, I think it's a very cool list though and incorporates the best parts of Grixis into a 4 color deck. It's also very strong and plays very close to a Legacy list.
If you've been watching Michael Major's stream, a really neat card that I picked up a few up back in the day but never really used was Rise // Fall. A lot of the top decks in modern run very few lands (especially Death's Shadow decks) so a lot of times it can be a Hymn to Tourach. The Rise mode is also insane - it provides a ton of value in drawn out matchups with the ability to return a Snapcaster as well as a dead DS or even another Snapcaster.
Hello friends! I'm a long-time lurker on this thread and usually more prone to posting on The Source for my Legacy brews, but I'm a long time Grixis Delver player in Modern, and the new Death's Shadow variants have re-invigorated my enthusiasm in brewing and tweaking the deck!
I started off with the stock Ryan Overturf list, but quickly started tweaking it over last week. The deck really wants to go down to 18 lands, and I've also incorporated some Stubborn Denials. This version of the deck really does feel closer to the tempo end of the spectrum than the stock lists.
Similarly, I've just recently started experimenting with a fourth color splash off a single shock, much like what the Jund Shadow lists have been doing for a while. I opted to start by testing green, because I felt the addition of Abrupt Decay was a valuable catch-all answer that covers many bases that Grixis can have trouble dealing with (I may just be biased towards Abrupt Decay however). Additionally, it gives access to Golgari Charm, which is a nice answer to opposing Lingering Souls, while also having a floor of blowing up problem enchantments or regenerating through a Wrath. So far I've tested against Jund, BW Tokens, UR Storm, Abzan, and stock Grixis Delver with encouraging results. I don't have enough data yet to synthesize a real conclusion on the green splash, but I'm working on it. Below is my list, I can't wait to keep tweaking and brewing this iteration of Delver in Modern, easily the most fun I've had in a long time.
Hey man, welcome to the forum! I think I recognize your username from The Source. Anyway, I really like your deck. I was debating over whether we should go classic Grixis Delver (with the Tropical Island) or do something a bit different.
In any case, I think the green splash is fascinating. I know on the Modern Nexus site there was Ashton proposing a heavier green focus with Tarmogoyf - I'm wondering if you're on the right track with Green instead of White.
It's tough because I'm not 100% sure on each. Some games I regret not having a Golgari Charm , other games I wish I had a Ranger to help override my opponent's mana.
So far, I have changed the mainboard minimally after playing about 12 games vs different decks - Abzan, Jund, Death's Shadow Jund, R/G Ponza, U Tron, Scapeshift, and a couple T3 decks.
The biggest change has been the sideboard to alleviate what are IMO this deck's biggest difficulties - enchantments. To this end, I've removed both Lingering Souls and included 1x Fragmentize and 1x Anguished Unmaking. Fragmentize is a nice answer to deal with pretty much every single problem enchantment for us, and Anguished Unmaking has the double duty of dealing with a problem non-land permanent while also advancing our Death's Shadows.
There was certainly some worry, as Jonny_Tempel noted, of us not being able to get Ranger of Eos within a reasonable schedule. While I can confirm that it has happened once, the other time where it's resolved it brought be 1 Delver and 1 Death's Shadow for the ride (I was at 10 life with no other sources of self-damage available) and it proceeded to cause serious issues for my midrange opponent. 12 games isn't enough for me to know for sure.
The one nice thing about Ranger in this deck is that it's easier to recur if it dies due to Snap + Kommand. The 1 maindeck Noxious Revival is placed to allow me to get back a threat or to get back a Godless Shrine that was milled.
The observant among you will notice I cut the Brutality - in my meta there is more midrange and control and big mana. Not a great card there.
Anyway, hope this was informative. I'm very much looking forward to AshtonKutcher and SomeKindofTimeWizard's experience with the green splash.
I wasn't able to get in any games last night due to me running a Shadowrun campaign but should be able to tonight. I'm really excited to try out the Ranger and Lingering Souls and see if they are as good as I'm intuiting them to be.
Grixis Delver and Shadowrun? You are a person of exquisite taste.
I replaced my 2 mana leaks with 2 Censor. It's really not as bad as I thought it would be, but yes, them not printing Miscalculation was, well, a miscalculation. It's every bit as good as Mana Leak from turns 2-4 vs most decks as they attempt to curve out, and I've had some cool turns where you can cycle it after flipping it on a Delver, as well as being able to blow out someone by Snapcastering a previously cycled Censor.
Lol, here's a funny thing I was thinking of this morning:
14 Creatures
Then you'd have to have a lot more kill spells to make it work, but you could feasibly start running more fatal push and terminate. However, a T2 Fatal Push + Bone Picker could be a pretty sweet play. Young Pyromancer helps turn on Bone Picker more often.
Care to post your list? It could also be a meta issue. Mine tended to be pretty solid since there was a lot of combo and big mana decks.
:edit:
You know, if you're looking for a new card to slot into Grixis Delver... Bone Picker might be your guy. Only dies to a Revolted Fatal Push, and from what I'm hearing, Lightning Bolt is on the decline as the removal spell of choice. Also our deck is chock full of removal so I can't see any serious problems with it except vs combo and control decks, where YP is much better.
A creature base could be something like:
Creatures (15)
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Gurmag Angler
3x Bone Picker
Against an unknown opponent in my particular meta I'd probably keep it as there isn't a ton of DS Decks. In the wild, I'd definitely mull this one.
Also, I'd be happy to help update the primer if the OP isn't going to.
By Force seems mad decent if you're in an artifact heavy meta. I'm not too worried about Affinity given we already have low-cost removal and Kolaghan's Command plus Snapcaster Mage.
Also regarding enigma drake - yeah it's not very good in Grixis Delver. But something I've been pondering is a Delver deck with Cryptic Serpent and Bedlam Reveler. Enigma Drake could be quite good there too.
All of your countermagic. Death Shadow decks generally run at least 6-8 pieces of targeted discard and your counters start to look really crappy against that.
Btw, regarding Harsh Mentor - seems like a cool sideboard card as a 1 of. I'm not as convinced of the hype as some people. Realistically, it really will just hit fetches and acts more like a clock than as a piece of control. It's badass vs Lantern though lol
I'll pick up a couple when he hits $5.
Also, call me crazy, but regarding Censor - I want to try it as a 2 of in the deck somewhere. I'll probably replace a single Mana Leak and a single Thought Scour with 2 just to see how it does. Will let y'all know how it goes.
Word, she essentially takes the place of the Electrolyze in the list you posted last page. 😋 I think you'll like her!
Liliana is very good in this deck. I said this earlier in the thread:
In short, she strengthens all avenues of the Delver game plan and helps break midrange matches by providing serious value.
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
👏👏👏👏👏
Great deck, and let me just say that I'm super happy to see that more people are realizing how badass Liliana, the Last Hope is in a Grixis Delver shell. My one small critique is I'm really not a fan of the basic mountain in Delver lists - I'd instead try a second Darkslick Shores. Other than that, very cool list. Let us know how it does!
Grixis Delver can most definitely afford additional fetchable swamps especially if you are running more Fatal Push and/or if it is a meta call, as was the case with my sideboard.
I'd say this is definitely the main reason. A secondary reason comes down to the type of sideboard you're running - in my traditional Grixis Delver list I had both Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Liliana, the Last Hope in the sideboard and they're very black mana heavy.
Having played over 30 matches with the deck, Delver adds a flying threat to the Jund shell - although I truly wouldn't call it a Jund shell as much as it is a fusion of Grixis and Jund, and in many ways an evolution of RUG Delver. The deck is also very consistent with a lot of draw power - the first Traverse generally can go get you a land, and you also have the Serum Visions to set up future draws. It has a lot of reach with 2 Tarfire as well as 4 Bolt (something the other decks lack), and personally, Bolt isn't a huge deal since in longer games I'd rather have the Bolt aimed at my Delver than at my own life total.
It's true that Delver doesn't turn on Stubborn Denial, and this can sometimes be an issue. Luckily, we also have Mana Leak in addition to the Thoughtseizes. Also, regarding the Rise//Fall, it definitely is not good against big mana decks, I will agree with you there. Thanksfully, you can use it to recur and reuse Snapcasters with the Rise mode. It's certainly not a great card, but is serviceable.
Thought I had it in there - https://www.twitch.tv/mmajors
You'll have to skip through a couple of his streams since he also does cube and standard, but he has a lot of really cool videos and a very strong Grixis Shadow list. Highly recommended.
Personally, I've moved onto a list that Ashton made that I helped out a bit with - http://modernnexus.com/introducing-temur-shadow/
Link to full list here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/511933-monkey-grow-rug-temur-delver?comment=3633
I know he posted it a little earlier, I think it's a very cool list though and incorporates the best parts of Grixis into a 4 color deck. It's also very strong and plays very close to a Legacy list.
Hey man, welcome to the forum! I think I recognize your username from The Source. Anyway, I really like your deck. I was debating over whether we should go classic Grixis Delver (with the Tropical Island) or do something a bit different.
In any case, I think the green splash is fascinating. I know on the Modern Nexus site there was Ashton proposing a heavier green focus with Tarmogoyf - I'm wondering if you're on the right track with Green instead of White.
It's tough because I'm not 100% sure on each. Some games I regret not having a Golgari Charm , other games I wish I had a Ranger to help override my opponent's mana.
So far, I have changed the mainboard minimally after playing about 12 games vs different decks - Abzan, Jund, Death's Shadow Jund, R/G Ponza, U Tron, Scapeshift, and a couple T3 decks.
The biggest change has been the sideboard to alleviate what are IMO this deck's biggest difficulties - enchantments. To this end, I've removed both Lingering Souls and included 1x Fragmentize and 1x Anguished Unmaking. Fragmentize is a nice answer to deal with pretty much every single problem enchantment for us, and Anguished Unmaking has the double duty of dealing with a problem non-land permanent while also advancing our Death's Shadows.
Here's my new Grixis Delver list:
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Thoughtseize
4 Thought Scour
1 Terminate
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Mana Leak
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Noxious Revival
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Fatal Push
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Fragmentize
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Terminate
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Countersquall
1 Rise // Fall
There was certainly some worry, as Jonny_Tempel noted, of us not being able to get Ranger of Eos within a reasonable schedule. While I can confirm that it has happened once, the other time where it's resolved it brought be 1 Delver and 1 Death's Shadow for the ride (I was at 10 life with no other sources of self-damage available) and it proceeded to cause serious issues for my midrange opponent. 12 games isn't enough for me to know for sure.
The one nice thing about Ranger in this deck is that it's easier to recur if it dies due to Snap + Kommand. The 1 maindeck Noxious Revival is placed to allow me to get back a threat or to get back a Godless Shrine that was milled.
The observant among you will notice I cut the Brutality - in my meta there is more midrange and control and big mana. Not a great card there.
Anyway, hope this was informative. I'm very much looking forward to AshtonKutcher and SomeKindofTimeWizard's experience with the green splash.
Ha, thanks! I do my best. : )