I know this question was asked already a while ago. I just don't remember which page on the primer it was.
My question is: Do you guys take out the Delver of Secrets against Jund? If yes, why? If no, why?
I know when we used to run 4 AV in the SB, we used to take them out.
I just hate getting Delver back from Tasigur's activation.
yes, because casting a rift bolt that can be countered by lightning bolt is not where i want to be in that matchup
creatures need to be very high impactful and capable of winning on their own if left alone for 1-2 turns, delver cannot do this so he comes out for stuff that is more impactful such as painful truths
What i was thinking is the following:
-1 terminate
-1 yound pyro
-3 probe
+1 watery grave
+3 fatal push
+1 spell pierce (or whatever)
Im doubting that the jones build is correct at this point though, having access to 12 cantrips is part of what made his build so good, losing 3 cantrips hurts that a bunch. Will try it out before i make any conclusions though
Fatal push is huge for this deck, ive long been an advocate for an innocent blood reprint, but that card is just worse than fatal push in this deck. Will try out 3/2 split between fatal push and terminate to start. The ability to kill a kalitas for 1 black is an amazing effect to finally have in modern
Can someone explain to me how the kolagan's command / Snapcaster Mage chain works? People talk about it like its an infinite combo, but I don't see it since Snappy exiles the card when it snaps it. So you really get only 2 casts off 1 Kcommand. Am I thinking right, or missing something here?
It works exactly like you described, you cast a snapcaster, cast some random spell, chump with snap/they kill it, you cast command to get it back and do something else, cast snap, cast k command again. For full value, cast snap then target k command then trade your snap with their attacker, casting kommand at end of turn to get snap back
Deathstroke: that sounds awesome! I'd be willing to record some of my more interesting draws for you as well
Ive always felt burn was super 50/50. My summary of the matchup is this: our nut draws never beat their nut draws, our average draws are even with their average draws, and their bad draws just cant beat our bad draws. Spell snare is huge in the matchup, so the number you run obviously influences this a lot.
We win with either an early delve fatty or a t3 pyro with protection. If they ever use a non-searing blaze removal spell on a dude, you almost auto win.
I disagree with overturf a lot when it comes to delver, but the one place we agree is that the matchup is a very skill testing but even matchup
Figured it is worth mentioning, my opinion of this comes from extensive testing of the matchup. A guy at my school plays burn, and we have been playing that matchup for nearly two years now in beteeen classes.
Hmm, very strange, I've never felt grixis to be a problem even with av. Granted it hasn't felt anything like the infect matchup, but I've always felt like I had the slight upper hand in the matchup
Grixis Delver is slightly favored (especially post sideboard) against other control decks).
Unfortunately, this is not true. We are not favoured vs Grixis Control nor against Jeskai Nahiri. We are not favoured even vs Esper Control or even Mardu Control. Only good thing is they will generally be flooding more than we do.
I feel favored vs grixis and jeskai control, they are just very inefficient and cant handle things such as young pyromancer very cleanly. The weakness of path to exile is also made painfully obvious in this matchup. Esper i will give you, i dont know that ive ever taken a match from esper. Never even played against a mardu list so i cannot comment on that
it was like you were pushing for a lategame while not actually having any lategame yourself. This is the reason i like the jones list the most, it isnt trying to fool itself into believing its something its not. By not running pyro, you are pretty much just playing a worse grixis control.
Even if I do not like Young Pyromancer all that much as a card, I have to admit this is a point I agreed all along. You push for a late game, but by not running Cryptic Command you have no late game. Young Pyromancer is a solid choice in the deck.
On the other hand, bfrie, the point of running a Control deck with no super late game + Delvers, you gain a lot by being a kind of control/kind of aggro deck at the same time. There is power in flexibility and there are options in flexibility. You, all of a sudden, gain edge vs some decks like Tron or Bant Eldrazi by introducing a Delver Of Secrets in a Control shell.
This is why i like jones list more in general, and especially like pyro. You gain way more flexibility in the roles you play than with overturfs list. An example of this is a match i played against tron recently. Game 1 i played basically a mono tasigur control game, where a t2 tasigur backes up by removal and counters won me the game. Game 2 was similar, but i was lacking in the correct interaction and speed to win here. At this point, he is forced to think im some weird form of mono tasigur control. Game 3 i go t1 delver, t2 pyro, killed him before he could cast anything relevant. Pyro is what won me this match, and the ability to play such polarizing roles allowed me to camouflage what my deck is trying to do, causing him to sideboard poorly
Obviously this is a niche example, and also obviously i am not the one true voice on the correct way to build delver, its just of my opinion that overturfs build would be better served by removing delver altogether for a better lategame, while Jones list can better leverage the early pressure a turn 1 delver provides
I guess it depends on the matchup, for example against tron I would leverage an early threat like pyro or t2 tas. I'll even blow up a map with kommand. Against burn, I try to leverage collective brutality as best as possible. Leveraging the delve fatties is also super important. You don't want to throw them away to a 1 or 2 mana removal. The most important resource is mana and graveyard. Threats like planeswalkers, free and reoccurring threats, lingering souls, 4 toughness, cavern of souls, enchantments.. These are all examples of things that are hard(er) for our deck to deal with. Our hardest matchups are dredge, burn, eldrazi, abzan, tron. These can be some uphill battles haha. I'm missing some points, but I hope I answered some of your question.
I'm also questioning the deck list. I've been on pyro/probe build since it won in August. My gut has been telling me to drop probes for a little while. I've been on 2 since before KJ himself went to 2, and I watched a little clip of him saying he wonders if probe belongs here at all, which I also think about, as a lot of us do.
Regarding dropping angler, i'm not entirely sure about that. There have been too many times when tas could not hold board state without a fish buddy right beside him.
Question for you; Coming from monkey gro, what build most excites you and what are the strengths of RUG vs grixis?
9tailz, thanks for the reply! And yes you did answer a lot of my suspicions, though I'll look to playtesting to provide specific scenarios to help me understand e weight of what you mean.
Um, without making it a talk about RUG (since we are in the grixis thread), RUG is simply the best "true" delver in the format in the sense that you cancommit threats and hold relevant disruption at all points in time even when tapped out. This allows you to be question instead of the having to answer all the time, by more effectively/efficiently holding board control.
Honestly the Overturf style seems to be (very limited testing with both styles) the way to go. If I wanted to tempo (aka Jones's list) I would stay RUG. It trades it's answers to enchantments and Hoots for better removal and value out of Snaps. Both styles are weak to GY hate. Whereas Overturf's style seems to accept the worse manna, and better removal to move the deck more towards midrange, using delver as an efficient threat to win earlier than conventional midrange.
Im much more of a fan of Jones list, purely because it runs more threats. The overturf version tries to be this really strange mix of the control builds and a delver deck. I tried that type of build when i first started the deck, and it felt super sloppy, and it was like you were pushing for a lategame while not actually having any lategame yourself. This is the reason i like the jones list the most, it isnt trying to fool itself into believing its something its not. By not running pyro, you are pretty much just playing a worse grixis control. Jones list has the ability to strongly temp your opponent out of the game, play the control deck, and be an all out aggro monster all in the same build, and even within the same game. This flexibility is what i find so strong about grixis in general, and especially the jones build.
Hey guys. This is my modified list. I would like to remind you that this list is intended for a Jund + Jeskai Nahiri + Grixis Delver + other kinds of Control(Grixis, UW) + Burn + Scapeshift heavy meta. Meaning 90% fair meta.Some Dredge as well, some Eldrazi & Taxes, some RG Valakut, some UR Prowess, some EldtraTron/Bant Eldrazi, some Tron(1 player only), some Zooicide, some Hatebears, some Infect.
No Lantern at all, no Affinity at all, no other weird or Tezzerator artifact decks. It's after hours of finetuning.
What do you think I should do better? Do you find the 3rd Island excessive while on Blood Moon, or should I run an extra fetchland or something other? Vendilion Clique? Would you run it?
Is is better to run Grixis Delver than Control in this meta and if yes, why in your opinion?
How do you approach the Eldrazi and Taxes matchup? Kolaghan's Command and Blood Moon seem like autowin buttons, I know this. I know the deck well(EnT), know the weird Aether Vial activations, know the right fetching etc. Sides out/in?
Thanks in advance and I wish Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all of you!
Huge thing that sticks out to me is the remand. I always felt like the huge reason twin had a bad matchup against fair decks was its reliance on this card. It is SO bad against fair decks. Grixis delver is an even worse shell for it, as we really aren't very tempo-y, and your list is extremely not tempo-y
To answer your delver vs control question: ive personally felt delver is just the best "control" deck in the format now. You are just way more efficient than the other control decks who really are not pushing for any real endgame anyways. However, i feel like delver without Pyromancer is always bad, as you cant take advantage of the early reach delver provides nearly as easily without him. I have won many a control mirror by going t1 delver, hit them twice (12 life left) , they kill it, play tasigur, hit them once (8 life left), they kill it, play pyro, cast 3 spells that turn, they kill it, win with leftover tokens. This is a personal thing though, and i definitely understand why some dont like him, but to me your better off cutting the delvers for lands and cryptics and just running control without pyro
1) I personally would recommend the 3 Tasigur, 1 angler split. Tasigur really helps with the late games as he allows you to constantly get a source of card advantage while applying pressure.
2) I really hate forked bolt as a card.
3) I think not having Blood Moon/ Molten Rain in your sideboard is a mistake.
Thank you! After the feedback here, this is the revised list.
Does this seem reasonable to take into a pretty open meta?
I feel 3 Terminate is a better number for the current "general" meta, but i cant for the life of me think of what i would cut from your list for it
I actually really like the 1 of spell pierce, ive been trying to find room for one of my own for awhile, might cut brutality for it
I dont like damnation for an open meta, its really only great against eldrazi and bogles, and really meh against everything else. 4 mana is a lot as well. Id slot in anger of the gods here if you think you need an effect like this, especially since it is so potent vs dredge
Final note, i am not a fan of moon for an open meta as well. Its only good against eldrazi and scapeshift, and can end up being a huge trap in fair matchups.
Overall, these are all minor things, and only my personal thoughts. Dont take them as the word of god, just take what you like and discard what you don't
Edit : i really don't like the 1 tasigur 3 angler split, the 1 extra delve on angler and tasigurs ability have been super relevant for me way more often than the 4/5 or the legendary status of tasigur.
Edit again: I'm apparently blind but leaving my post as is because I feel it's important
2 forked bolt 2 electrolyze 1 k command 2 or 3 pyros?
Forked bolt seems actively bad in that meta
Any suggestions? I'm still trying to learn the deck
I would for sure want 4x terminate in that meta, 2x k command 1x electrolyze. The fact that over half of that meta doesn't care about bolt is huge, and the main reason why forked bolt seems so bad. As others stated pyro is a big deal here, you will run away with so many games from him alone. The fact that half of your meta is running cavern makes counters feel bad as well, and there aren't many targets for spell snare at all. Overall an increased density of hard removal feels very important
Thanks a lot sir! I will definitely 4x terminate 2x k command. Btw i said forked bolt since bant and hatebears uses heirarch but bolt would be enough right? mana leak would still be good sir since it can counter thought-knot seer if i was on play unless (cavern of souls)
I also highly recommend running a damnation in the side for your meta, totally forgot to mention
Edit : and blood moon
yes, because casting a rift bolt that can be countered by lightning bolt is not where i want to be in that matchup
creatures need to be very high impactful and capable of winning on their own if left alone for 1-2 turns, delver cannot do this so he comes out for stuff that is more impactful such as painful truths
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
-1 terminate
-1 yound pyro
-3 probe
+1 watery grave
+3 fatal push
+1 spell pierce (or whatever)
Im doubting that the jones build is correct at this point though, having access to 12 cantrips is part of what made his build so good, losing 3 cantrips hurts that a bunch. Will try it out before i make any conclusions though
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
It works exactly like you described, you cast a snapcaster, cast some random spell, chump with snap/they kill it, you cast command to get it back and do something else, cast snap, cast k command again. For full value, cast snap then target k command then trade your snap with their attacker, casting kommand at end of turn to get snap back
Deathstroke: that sounds awesome! I'd be willing to record some of my more interesting draws for you as well
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Interesting, I've never had this card cast against me, is that a regular thing?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
We win with either an early delve fatty or a t3 pyro with protection. If they ever use a non-searing blaze removal spell on a dude, you almost auto win.
I disagree with overturf a lot when it comes to delver, but the one place we agree is that the matchup is a very skill testing but even matchup
Figured it is worth mentioning, my opinion of this comes from extensive testing of the matchup. A guy at my school plays burn, and we have been playing that matchup for nearly two years now in beteeen classes.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I feel favored vs grixis and jeskai control, they are just very inefficient and cant handle things such as young pyromancer very cleanly. The weakness of path to exile is also made painfully obvious in this matchup. Esper i will give you, i dont know that ive ever taken a match from esper. Never even played against a mardu list so i cannot comment on that
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
This is why i like jones list more in general, and especially like pyro. You gain way more flexibility in the roles you play than with overturfs list. An example of this is a match i played against tron recently. Game 1 i played basically a mono tasigur control game, where a t2 tasigur backes up by removal and counters won me the game. Game 2 was similar, but i was lacking in the correct interaction and speed to win here. At this point, he is forced to think im some weird form of mono tasigur control. Game 3 i go t1 delver, t2 pyro, killed him before he could cast anything relevant. Pyro is what won me this match, and the ability to play such polarizing roles allowed me to camouflage what my deck is trying to do, causing him to sideboard poorly
Obviously this is a niche example, and also obviously i am not the one true voice on the correct way to build delver, its just of my opinion that overturfs build would be better served by removing delver altogether for a better lategame, while Jones list can better leverage the early pressure a turn 1 delver provides
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Im much more of a fan of Jones list, purely because it runs more threats. The overturf version tries to be this really strange mix of the control builds and a delver deck. I tried that type of build when i first started the deck, and it felt super sloppy, and it was like you were pushing for a lategame while not actually having any lategame yourself. This is the reason i like the jones list the most, it isnt trying to fool itself into believing its something its not. By not running pyro, you are pretty much just playing a worse grixis control. Jones list has the ability to strongly temp your opponent out of the game, play the control deck, and be an all out aggro monster all in the same build, and even within the same game. This flexibility is what i find so strong about grixis in general, and especially the jones build.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Huge thing that sticks out to me is the remand. I always felt like the huge reason twin had a bad matchup against fair decks was its reliance on this card. It is SO bad against fair decks. Grixis delver is an even worse shell for it, as we really aren't very tempo-y, and your list is extremely not tempo-y
To answer your delver vs control question: ive personally felt delver is just the best "control" deck in the format now. You are just way more efficient than the other control decks who really are not pushing for any real endgame anyways. However, i feel like delver without Pyromancer is always bad, as you cant take advantage of the early reach delver provides nearly as easily without him. I have won many a control mirror by going t1 delver, hit them twice (12 life left) , they kill it, play tasigur, hit them once (8 life left), they kill it, play pyro, cast 3 spells that turn, they kill it, win with leftover tokens. This is a personal thing though, and i definitely understand why some dont like him, but to me your better off cutting the delvers for lands and cryptics and just running control without pyro
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I feel 3 Terminate is a better number for the current "general" meta, but i cant for the life of me think of what i would cut from your list for it
I actually really like the 1 of spell pierce, ive been trying to find room for one of my own for awhile, might cut brutality for it
I dont like damnation for an open meta, its really only great against eldrazi and bogles, and really meh against everything else. 4 mana is a lot as well. Id slot in anger of the gods here if you think you need an effect like this, especially since it is so potent vs dredge
Final note, i am not a fan of moon for an open meta as well. Its only good against eldrazi and scapeshift, and can end up being a huge trap in fair matchups.
Overall, these are all minor things, and only my personal thoughts. Dont take them as the word of god, just take what you like and discard what you don't
Edit : i really don't like the 1 tasigur 3 angler split, the 1 extra delve on angler and tasigurs ability have been super relevant for me way more often than the 4/5 or the legendary status of tasigur.
Edit again: I'm apparently blind but leaving my post as is because I feel it's important
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I also highly recommend running a damnation in the side for your meta, totally forgot to mention
Edit : and blood moon
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR