@hammerOS
Lacks pyromancer's, but other than that is solid, though I might try a Pierce in place of snare#3, it's better against stuff like tron and infect, plus you get a similar power level vs bgx decks (though if those are all over your meta I'd stick to snares)
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
Right now I'm thinking +1 push, +1 electro if abzan/souls start showing up again, otherwise this is going to be either push #2, snare #2, or sleight of hand #1, +1 clique (which is good against almost everything, though never really great), -3 probe.
As to when YP is good, he excelled against midrange strategies (blanking lili for example) and was servicable vs aggro (stalling their attacks for even 2/3 turns should win you the game unless your hand is flat-out terrible). Due to the lack of opposing blockers he could take over vs control too but that was extremely rare as they usually had removal. Last, YP blanked 1/3 of infect's threats (elf). However, his impact will be much lessened without any more probes
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
YP definitely has to stay in, hes just too good. The only options i see to stay with cantrips are an extra land and 1-2 magmatic insight or sleight of hand
Also, f*** ryan and his list #pyro4life
so...........upside, all our bad matchups are going away or getting alot better. downside..............probe was really, really important. i cant think of any decent cantrips anymore, so ill probably try +1 land, -1 YP (keeping one), +1 clique, +1 brutality/push, +1 flex spell (ideally scour esque)
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
Yeah, if you can hit amalgams (and blood ghast depending on deck) you just win on the spot. Another thing of note is that tapping out and taking (at least) 3 damage on t4 or so is not something that you can really expect to do and still win. Truths only really shines when both players are out of cards and you top it in the very late game, but even then there is a good chance you will be at low enough life your opponent can just burn you out. 2 av has served me well in the board, I would recommend that over X # of truths any day of the week.
On a different note, should I switch the EE in my board for another skite or stratocaster given that there is alot of infect (and a uw taxes guy I'm always up against) with no boggles to be seen?
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
My point isn't that we can answer everything out of tron, it's that we can answer enough to kill them by t5/t6. It won't happen every time, but it happens enough to be at least a favorable MU
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@riotary
Moon is quite good, but I would test your mana base to see how well you can fetch basics before throwing 2 in the board. I would bring it in against abzan if they fetch lots of non-basics g2, infect always, Jeskai if they get greedy, and the other 3 always.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
Everyone is assuming in the tron MU that we aren't interacting at all with them. We can leak a t3 karn, snare a scrying (though that seems to be dropping off) Pierce exp. Map, etc. Blood moon does only slow them down a few turns, that that should be plenty to clock them. I do have to note that stubborn denial does vastly improve this, so that may be skewing my results somewhat (or alot), as I'm really not seeing the results everyone is talking about with it being horrible. Odds are denial is skewing a couple others as well (and so are the additional fatties needed).
On the subject of electrolyze, it is really only useful in the infect and abzan matches. Kommand is going to be a better card elsewhere (and likely vs infect too). If your meta is abzan infested go for it or forked bolt (which I believe to be the superior choice in general, esp vs infect, but it is a matter of preference I suppose).
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@brinkoman
In my experience, MUs go more like this:
(bad-unfavorable-even-favorable-good)
On a different note, my list has 2 stubborn denial, 0 canal, and 0 collective brutality
Burn: E-F. A t2 delve guy will usually do it. Outside of that it's tough.
Drazi: F. Their most broken draws don't use cavern, plus most lists don't run 4. Our clock is also faster as they have minimal disruption and we have lots of relevant.
Infect: E. Depends how you both draw.
Jund: E. Depends on SBS, both lists want to do similar things.
Dredge: B. Lots of grave hate makes this good but tanks other MUs.
Abzan: U. Souls is pretty bad, but the rest be can beat fairly well. Stratocaster helps alot.
RG Tron: F-G. Sure, without the t1 delver/t2 fatty this is hard, but those hands are as common as t3 Tron is. With them we tend to win pretty well.
Breach: E-F. Stop breach, stop their deck.
Jeskai: E. Nahiri can cause problems if she hits, but usually we have enough burn to close the game.
Merfolk: B. MOW is a beating and we can't block at all.
Ad Nauseum: F-G. Pact or bust hast been it for me too.
CoCo: E-F. In my experience most game come down to them having 1 turn to get the missing combo (pieces) or we win.
Kiki Chord/Evo: E-U. So much of their deck is good against us, but alot is bad as well. Depends what they draw.
Taxes: F-G. They really have to nut us or get really, really aggressive. My current record is something like 15-2 or 15-3 here.
Zoo: F-G. Similar to burn except eidolon is rare and they get brickwall by tasigur instead of racing.
Shadow: F-G. You can lose easily to battle rage, but they go down easier to a pair of bolts.
Scapeshift: Even. There are only a couple spells you have to deal with, but it is very hard to do so.
As mentioned previously, delver does very well against liner strategies trying to go through/over you and less so against decks that want to go under/around you.
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Depends on the exact list of burn, i suppose there are likely some that are bad MU's but in my experience burn has been at least even, likely close to 55:45/60:40 in our favor (overall i would put it at ~20-30% to win preboard, ~60-70% post). Tron is solidly in the favorable category, they dont do well against a fast clock normally, but we have burn+lots of disruption to back it up.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
The goal of delver is not be be control. We want to drop something fast and kill around t6/7, with enough disruption to keep us and our creatures alive till then. But yeah, that is a horrible meta for delver to be in (with all the tron likely why you're doing as well as you are, it's one of our better MUs). That said, I would argue that burn is a favorable MU for most delver builds.
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I like the idea of maindeck countersquall, i side it in like 75% of the time as is. What i dont like is cutting leak all together, seeing a goyf/primeval titan/etched champion cast with a squall in hand would feel bad every time
A MD squall is something I can get behind, but leak is important enough at stopping the early beaters that I'm not cutting it. Leak is especially good against drazi because it stops their t2 though-knots and even beyond that if they don't have cavern. There is always stuff like your or blighted Agents that we like to hit as well of course. If you do want squall, I would suggest cutting a probe for it. On a different note, if you bring squall in that much, you either need to adjust the MD and get rid of bad cards or stop overboarding.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
Yeah, remand is getting increasingly rare in delver because the best MU for it (Tron) has dropped off a bit. I've found dredge to generally be a bad MU unless we load up on GY hate (not common) or have a double-delver hand. Living end on the other hand is pretty solid (so is restore balance should that come up for anyone) as scout can mill creatures for us and we only need 1-2 counters with our clock. And yes, boggles should really just be ignored in the SB unless you know you'll see it. Those are both MUs that are quite bad without extensive having, and they are rare enough that we have better things to worry about. However, should living end really concern anyone add invasive surgery to the board, we about always have delirium and no end means many, many turns added to their clock.
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@Johnny_Tempel
I'll give it a whirl. Also, do truths reeeaaallly work out okay? We take alot of damage already and adding a few more+tapping out for a turn doesn't seem like a good idea. I do recommend visions though, but not the whole 4 AV in, 4 Delver out bs some people have been floating. I only run 2 in the board and those are usually for probes, peezy, or removal depending on MU. Cutting delvers is just a bad idea, as we can't out-control those decks (and as a random tangent, AV can actually be good against lantern, it lets you pump their hand size for bridge on your turn. Same for wheel in some of the breach/vengeance lists)
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
Lacks pyromancer's, but other than that is solid, though I might try a Pierce in place of snare#3, it's better against stuff like tron and infect, plus you get a similar power level vs bgx decks (though if those are all over your meta I'd stick to snares)
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As to when YP is good, he excelled against midrange strategies (blanking lili for example) and was servicable vs aggro (stalling their attacks for even 2/3 turns should win you the game unless your hand is flat-out terrible). Due to the lack of opposing blockers he could take over vs control too but that was extremely rare as they usually had removal. Last, YP blanked 1/3 of infect's threats (elf). However, his impact will be much lessened without any more probes
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Also, f*** ryan and his list #pyro4life
@keegatron
4 mire
4 delta
1 grave
2 vents
1 crypt
1 blackcleave
2 darkslick
1 island
1 swamp
1 mountain
4 unknown (clique, pyro #2-3, sleight, insight, brutality, island #2, snare #2, pierce #1) push all floating in here)
2 kommand
4 bolt
3 terminate
1 murderous cut//fatal push (meta dependent)
4 visions
4 scour
4 leak
1 snare
2 denial
3 snapcaster
3 tasigur
2 angler
4 delver
1 YP
(I think thats 60)
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On a different note, should I switch the EE in my board for another skite or stratocaster given that there is alot of infect (and a uw taxes guy I'm always up against) with no boggles to be seen?
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Moon is quite good, but I would test your mana base to see how well you can fetch basics before throwing 2 in the board. I would bring it in against abzan if they fetch lots of non-basics g2, infect always, Jeskai if they get greedy, and the other 3 always.
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On the subject of electrolyze, it is really only useful in the infect and abzan matches. Kommand is going to be a better card elsewhere (and likely vs infect too). If your meta is abzan infested go for it or forked bolt (which I believe to be the superior choice in general, esp vs infect, but it is a matter of preference I suppose).
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In my experience, MUs go more like this:
(bad-unfavorable-even-favorable-good)
On a different note, my list has 2 stubborn denial, 0 canal, and 0 collective brutality
Burn: E-F. A t2 delve guy will usually do it. Outside of that it's tough.
Drazi: F. Their most broken draws don't use cavern, plus most lists don't run 4. Our clock is also faster as they have minimal disruption and we have lots of relevant.
Infect: E. Depends how you both draw.
Jund: E. Depends on SBS, both lists want to do similar things.
Dredge: B. Lots of grave hate makes this good but tanks other MUs.
Abzan: U. Souls is pretty bad, but the rest be can beat fairly well. Stratocaster helps alot.
RG Tron: F-G. Sure, without the t1 delver/t2 fatty this is hard, but those hands are as common as t3 Tron is. With them we tend to win pretty well.
Breach: E-F. Stop breach, stop their deck.
Jeskai: E. Nahiri can cause problems if she hits, but usually we have enough burn to close the game.
Merfolk: B. MOW is a beating and we can't block at all.
Ad Nauseum: F-G. Pact or bust hast been it for me too.
CoCo: E-F. In my experience most game come down to them having 1 turn to get the missing combo (pieces) or we win.
Kiki Chord/Evo: E-U. So much of their deck is good against us, but alot is bad as well. Depends what they draw.
Taxes: F-G. They really have to nut us or get really, really aggressive. My current record is something like 15-2 or 15-3 here.
Zoo: F-G. Similar to burn except eidolon is rare and they get brickwall by tasigur instead of racing.
Shadow: F-G. You can lose easily to battle rage, but they go down easier to a pair of bolts.
Scapeshift: Even. There are only a couple spells you have to deal with, but it is very hard to do so.
As mentioned previously, delver does very well against liner strategies trying to go through/over you and less so against decks that want to go under/around you.
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A MD squall is something I can get behind, but leak is important enough at stopping the early beaters that I'm not cutting it. Leak is especially good against drazi because it stops their t2 though-knots and even beyond that if they don't have cavern. There is always stuff like your or blighted Agents that we like to hit as well of course. If you do want squall, I would suggest cutting a probe for it. On a different note, if you bring squall in that much, you either need to adjust the MD and get rid of bad cards or stop overboarding.
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I'll give it a whirl. Also, do truths reeeaaallly work out okay? We take alot of damage already and adding a few more+tapping out for a turn doesn't seem like a good idea. I do recommend visions though, but not the whole 4 AV in, 4 Delver out bs some people have been floating. I only run 2 in the board and those are usually for probes, peezy, or removal depending on MU. Cutting delvers is just a bad idea, as we can't out-control those decks (and as a random tangent, AV can actually be good against lantern, it lets you pump their hand size for bridge on your turn. Same for wheel in some of the breach/vengeance lists)
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