Has he grown powerful enough to warp an angel, and then every other being that angel comes in close proximity with?
This. This right here is a leap in logic. We don't know much about Tibalt, but what we do know is that he's a bit of a screw-up who found being a skaberen too difficult, and who had trouble dealing with a handful of inquisitors. To say that warping Avacyn, the strongest angel on Innistrad, would require him to get a power boost is a massive understatement. There's also the leap in logic that because Tibalt can coerce people by subjecting them to pain, he could also cast some sort of infectious rage aura.
And that mental attack Avacyn suffered. It mentions "an image of many floating stone obelisks with intricate runes carved into their sides", which seems a clear reference to hedrons, pointing to Nahiri as the culprit.
We're only a few days into preview weeks, and SOI is already saturated with characters: Tamiyo leaving clues that Jace is finding; Avacyn, Bruna, and Gisela going off the deep end, leaving Sigarda as the only sane one; Sorin coming in to destroy Avacyn; Nahiri on her rampage; Arlinn and Liliana, however they factor in to this; and I suspect that whatever it is Runo Stromkirk worships will have a role to play. And you're thinking that not only is Tibalt involved, but he's the chessmaster behind it all? Honestly, I'd bet that WotC has moved Tibalt offworld, just so that they don't have to dilute the story with his presence, explaining what he's up to while everything is going on.
Her new abilities stink of a very familiar planeswalker we all know. She seems to have been warped by the same force. Man, is Tibalt really that strong?
Wait, you're trying to draw a connection between her and Tibalt? She has one ability similar to his, which isn't evidence of anything, especially since Dack Fayden and Darettialso have looting for their first abilities.
It may not have been his intention, but that Insurrection he fired off apparently has some AOE, it even affected some humans near his intended target. The effect seems to follow her around though, once she'd left the mother and child behind they no longer felt the.... rage.
Yes, it may also be due to her own internal anger. Looking at what she did to the manor though, I'm not too sure that's just Nahiri being angry. You confront someone for an epic battle if you're mad at them for breaking a promise, going to their home and eliminating their bloodline? That's kinda crazy.
That's some nice fanfiction you've got there, but the fact is that most of the stuff you're saying isn't based in actual canon. Tibalt hasn't done anything in-story, beyond the short blurb that was his origin, and whatever happened between him and Sorin to inspire their duel deck. And he most certainly has not ever used his ult in-story. We haven't even gotten an explanation for how his card abilities actually work from a story perspective. His ultimate could cause temporary insanity, it could be coercion via pain, it could be mind control; we don't know.
You're basing your theories on shaky leaps in logic that are, in turn, based on assumptions made about how cards' mechanics work in-story, ignoring the possibility that gameplay and story segregation could be in effect here. And your entire theory hinges on the idea that Tibalt is still alive and on Innistrad, which we don't actually know for certain.
Her new abilities stink of a very familiar planeswalker we all know. She seems to have been warped by the same force. Man, is Tibalt really that strong?
Wait, you're trying to draw a connection between her and Tibalt? She has one ability similar to his, which isn't evidence of anything, especially since Dack Fayden and Darettialso have looting for their first abilities.
Anybody think Jeleva will get a card or maybe a reprint?
Maybe, biggest reason I'd would lean towards no is Jeleva was established as three colors and that might be do able in SoI design.
Also, her etb ability only makes sense in the context of EDH; not the sort of thing they'd normally print in a regular expansion. That, combined with the three color thing, and the fact that she currently has no storyline relevance, means that the chance of a reprint is basically nil. Even her getting a new card seems like a long shot, honestly.
Jelava is at least engaged in her own private war against the Church of Avacyn, who have put a price on her head. Doesn't sound like she has no relevance at all in the story. We don't know what this can lead into and a new (maybe two color) version of her would not be to far-fetched.
That bit of lore was added when Commander 2013 was printed, after Innistrad had ended, to give an interesting card some backstory and context. But the story of Innistrad block was about the search for Avacyn, which Jeleva had nothing to do with. Just because she's done cool/impressive things doesn't mean she actually has storyline relevance. Jeleva had as much to do with Innistrad's story as Kaalia had to do with Alara's, or Mazirek had to do with either Ravnica blocks' story.
Now, it's not impossible that they give her a key role in the upcoming story, but even then, it's more likely that they give a card to someone who doesn't have a card already. There's Runo Stromkirk, who's the progenitor of a major bloodline, but my money's on Edgar Markov.
Anybody think Jeleva will get a card or maybe a reprint?
Maybe, biggest reason I'd would lean towards no is Jeleva was established as three colors and that might be do able in SoI design.
Also, her etb ability only makes sense in the context of EDH; not the sort of thing they'd normally print in a regular expansion. That, combined with the three color thing, and the fact that she currently has no storyline relevance, means that the chance of a reprint is basically nil. Even her getting a new card seems like a long shot, honestly.
Your first point is purely speculative: why shouldn't she have somewhere she feels at home?
I'm just saying, Liliana always seemed perfectly willing to completely uproot herself in pursuit of her goals, and she never appeared to grow terribly attached to anything. But I'll admit it's possible I misinterpreted her character.
I eagerly await WotC's explanation for why in the world Liliana has backtracked to Innistrad.
They already have: it's where she hangs out. It's one of her favorite places. That may not have been the case at the end of AVR, but it is now.
It doesn't really take a wild leap to end up there:
Which planeswalker really likes necromancy? Liliana.
Which plane is riddled with necromancers? Innistrad.
Which necromantic planeswalker did they include as the black PW in Origins? Liliana.
Which planes did they give her as her two significant planes? Dominaria (because we already knew she was from there) and... oh yes - Innistrad!
Add to that all the stuff about the Origins 5 being the focal PWs of the ongoing story now, Lili's absence from BFZ/OGW, and the express intent by Wizards for us to see her again soon, and I'll say it again - hopefully for the last time: Liliana in this block should not have been a surprise.
Besides the fact that Liliana doesn't really strike me as the sort of person to form ties to any one place, why would she make her primary hideout right under the nose of one of her demon masters? She wants to be free of them, not within arm's reach of them.
That you know of. As I've said repeatedly she spent a lot of time in Innistrad in her youth. There are plenty of things they could bring up as unfinished business. Since she's so afraid of the veil right now her demons might not be the best things for her to try to take on right now. Besides the Jace v Ugin UR was pretty obvious about Jace acknowledging Lilis connection to Innistrad.
I mean, yeah, it seems obvious that she's working on her veil problem currently, but nothing we've bee told so far would indicate that anything related to the veil is on Innistrad. I suppose they could have an Uncharted Realms between then and now where Lili returns to, say, Kothoped's lair, and finds a clue that leads her to Innistrad, but it still would feel contrived if it just happened that the trail led her to, out of all the planes in the multiverse, one she's familiar with.
Ugh... It just feels like they're putting Liliana in this block because of player expectation/demand, rather than because they have a good story reason to. Hopefully, WotC will prove my misgivings to be unfounded.
With Nahiri being a Lithomancer, and the moon being made of silver, it doesn't seem like it's that far fetched of a theory.
litho = stone
sliver = not stone
I'm pretty sure she can manipulate metal, too, but I'm just sayin', the makeup of Innistrad's moon isn't going to make it easier for her to mess with than a regular moon. (The fact that it's magic might make it easier for her to affect, but that's another matter entirely.)
I'm very surprised at some of your assumptions. For instance, I've been talking about Jace seeking Liliana's assistance, not about Liliana seeking Jace. But if he asks for a favor, she could easily give conditions.
That's even more ludicrous.
1. Jace has even less of an idea where Lili is than Lili has of Jace's whereabouts. Where would he even begin to look?
2. Jace literally just joined a group of planeswalkers he can ask for help.
3. What does Jace need from Lili anyway? Information about Innistrad? He's a mind mage: he can just take that directly from the brains of the locals. Protection? He's done fine on his own before, and someone with a history of betraying people (both in general, and you specifically) is a *****ty source of protection. Her necromancy? He's looking for a missing person, not trying to integrate into ghoulcaller society.
4. Jace already tried to get Lili to help. She outright refused, even though Jace made it clear he'd help her with the Chain Veil afterwards. She wasn't even willing to wait around for him to finish with Zendikar before he'd help her pro bono. Because when you're Liliana Vess, taking even one moment to stop looking out for number one is unacceptable. She didn't go to Zendikar in exchange for his help, she won't go to Innistrad in exchange for his help, and Jace knows it.
Except not having a reason to return is, itself, a reason to not return for Liliana. She wouldn't want to waste time backtracking when she's got two more demons to kill, and the ghosts of a dead civilization breathing down her neck. She's not like some other walkers, who wander where they want, and show up on whatever plane, just because they feel like it. She's got very specific goals, and is extremely resolute in her pursuit of those goals. WotC would need to give her a very specific reason to return. And, as I stated, it needs to be something new, that she couldn't/wouldn't have taken care of last time.
Not sure if you missed the link from ThyLordQ, but in Unkindness of Ravens, she wanted to find a way to kill the other two demons without killing herself. That'd be a pretty selfish goal, so right in her wheelhouse. But she wanted Jace to help her figure out a way to do so. Last time Jace didn't want to find someone on Innistrad, so that's why she couldn't do it last time.
I didn't miss that. Also, I'd read Unkindness of Ravens back when it first went up on the mothership. I think you missed the fact that that's still a stretch, and requires a couple of assumptions. The first being that she actually knows where to find Jace. Last time, when she found him on Ravnica, she made an educated guess that paid off. She has no reason to believe Jace is on Innistrad, so why would she check there? The second assumption is that she actually still wants Jace's help, and hasn't given up on getting it. Her final line in Unkindness of Ravens makes it crystal clear that she's going to try going it alone, and that she's fed up with Jace being a goody two-shoes. ThyLordQ even quoted that part; so, speaking of missing things...
I don't think it would require as many (if any) plot contortions as you'd think. I've yet to hear an honestly compelling reason to not return. Nor have I heard or said one that feels particularly compelling to return. From a story standpoint anyway.
Except not having a reason to return is, itself, a reason to not return for Liliana. She wouldn't want to waste time backtracking when she's got two more demons to kill, and the ghosts of a dead civilization breathing down her neck. She's not like some other walkers, who wander where they want, and show up on whatever plane, just because they feel like it. She's got very specific goals, and is extremely resolute in her pursuit of those goals. WotC would need to give her a very specific reason to return. And, as I stated, it needs to be something new, that she couldn't/wouldn't have taken care of last time.
Again, the only reason I think it's possible is because of the "We'll see her soon" from almost a year ago. That feels appropriately soonish, in Magic terms.
And as a personal thing (and an assumption that could very easily be wrong), I doubt she'd go back to look at the Onakke directly, given what happened last time.
There are other places on Shandalar she could look. (Your local library!) A civilization like the Onakke don't just up and disappear without leaving anything behind.
Going to Kothophed's lair is certainly a possibility (though we don't know where that is), but she could also be looking to Griselbrand's lair for information. The demons seemed to have some understanding that they were dealing as one of many, and possibly even had multi-planar plans. That's more on the wild assumption side though.
Kothophed was the one who sent her to fetch the chain veil, though. And he even warned her about using it before she killed him, so he clearly knew something about the veil. Out of literally everyone in the multiverse, he's the best, most obvious lead Liliana has. Meanwhile, we have absolutely no evidence that Griselbrand even knew the thing existed. Even the idea that Griselbrand knew of Kothophed (or that there are plans beyond Innistrad) is unconfirmed; just because Kothophed knew of the other three, doesn't mean the other three knew of him, or each other. For that matter, we don't even know how much Kothophed knew of the other three, beyond the fact that they existed. Investigating Griselbrand, rather than returning to Shandalar or Kothophed's lair, makes no sense.
She sat down on the edge of the fountain to catch her breath and gather her thoughts. It was true—she was trapped. If she continued using the Chain Veil like this, it might drain the life out of her by the time she killed her two remaining demons. If she tried to face her demons without the power of the Chain Veil, they would tear her apart. Helping Jace fight Zendikar's giant monsters presented the same choice: death if she used the Veil, death if she didn't.
"I don't need help," she said aloud. Jace can go solve Gideon's puzzle. I'll solve my own.
Parts bolded for emphasis. We know she isn't going after her demons just yet.
To be fair, if anything, that would suggest her going to investigate the Onakke. Like, returning to Kothophed's lair, and looking through his diary stuff.
WotC could always write in some reason for her to return to Innistrad, but make no mistake: it would require some plot contortions to make work. She currently has no reason to return, and more than a few to not return. And the new reason would have to be something she couldn't have, or wouldn't have, taken care of during her last visit.
Lest we forget that Lili does have feelings for Jace.
And then she murdered all his friends. Lest we forget.
'Cause that's what Liliana does to people who aren't her, even the people she likes. She ruins their lives, and exploits them ruthlessly.
So, yeah, their relationship isn't exactly on stable ground; Jace is hardly going to jump at the chance to work with Lili. Heck, he was more eager to help Gideon, a guy he'd never met before, than Liliana.
If Noyan Dar, who merely appeared in flavor text (like Jenrik, who also appears in the World Guide for Innistrad) got a card in BFZ, I believe Jenrik should be considered for the Blue Mythic (or a Rare) slot for one of the sets. Jenrik studies Innistrad's moon, which is the most relevant metaphysical object on the plane. That's why Tamiyo approached him in the first place. We don't know what Innistrad's story will be, but the trailer shows that classic Innistrad full moon.
Yeah, uh huh, that's cool; Noyan Dar and Ayli got cards. Out of how many minor characters, though? Where are the cards for Chadir the Navigator, Bruse Tarl, Zahr Gada, Sachir, or dozens upon dozens upon dozens of others? Noyan and Ayli merely won the legendary lottery. Either WotC thought of a cool direction to take a character mentioned in flavor text, or they had a Legendary creature design that they thought they could slap a familiar name onto.
It's not impossible for that to happen to Jenrik, but he is an old hermit astronomer. That's not going to excite people nearly as much as, say, any given werewolf alpha, or one of the vampire bloodline progenitors. It's an extremely long shot.
It would be sad if a revisit didn't have him and instead had some random Griffin that can be cast from exile or some other boring non-legendary for the sake of filling the mythic slot with something random. Besides, WOTC has been better about this. Even Tazri and Jori En got cards. I'm anticipating Jenrik as a blue rare if nothing else, hopefully.
Every set has nonlegendary rares and mythics, though. And just because they're not legendary doesn't mean they're boring cards. And just because you make a card legendary, doesn't mean it's automatically exciting.
Also, here's a thought: WotC makes up some new characters for SOI block, ones unfettered by previously established canon, giving them more freedom in designing their cards. Y'know, like they do every block. Like they did when they made Tazri and Jori En, in fact.
As for the rest of my signature, Arixmethes is the only other one I really want to see on a card. And on the Blogatog poll, while Jenrik didn't chart at all, Arixmethes came in second, bested only by Taigam. So that's facing the facts.
I said half, and there are four characters mentioned in your sig. Arixmethes is one of the two who I think actually has a chance. A kraken-back city is the sort of thing WotC can easily make a cool card around.
And that mental attack Avacyn suffered. It mentions "an image of many floating stone obelisks with intricate runes carved into their sides", which seems a clear reference to hedrons, pointing to Nahiri as the culprit.
We're only a few days into preview weeks, and SOI is already saturated with characters: Tamiyo leaving clues that Jace is finding; Avacyn, Bruna, and Gisela going off the deep end, leaving Sigarda as the only sane one; Sorin coming in to destroy Avacyn; Nahiri on her rampage; Arlinn and Liliana, however they factor in to this; and I suspect that whatever it is Runo Stromkirk worships will have a role to play. And you're thinking that not only is Tibalt involved, but he's the chessmaster behind it all? Honestly, I'd bet that WotC has moved Tibalt offworld, just so that they don't have to dilute the story with his presence, explaining what he's up to while everything is going on.
You're basing your theories on shaky leaps in logic that are, in turn, based on assumptions made about how cards' mechanics work in-story, ignoring the possibility that gameplay and story segregation could be in effect here. And your entire theory hinges on the idea that Tibalt is still alive and on Innistrad, which we don't actually know for certain.
Now, it's not impossible that they give her a key role in the upcoming story, but even then, it's more likely that they give a card to someone who doesn't have a card already. There's Runo Stromkirk, who's the progenitor of a major bloodline, but my money's on Edgar Markov.
I have this mental image of someone having to save Lili from drowning because she tried making out with a lake.
Well, technology marches on; Geralf must've invented a way to fireproof them. After the way the siege of Thraben went, can you blame him?
I mean, yeah, it seems obvious that she's working on her veil problem currently, but nothing we've bee told so far would indicate that anything related to the veil is on Innistrad. I suppose they could have an Uncharted Realms between then and now where Lili returns to, say, Kothoped's lair, and finds a clue that leads her to Innistrad, but it still would feel contrived if it just happened that the trail led her to, out of all the planes in the multiverse, one she's familiar with.
Ugh... It just feels like they're putting Liliana in this block because of player expectation/demand, rather than because they have a good story reason to. Hopefully, WotC will prove my misgivings to be unfounded.
litho = stone
sliver = not stone
I'm pretty sure she can manipulate metal, too, but I'm just sayin', the makeup of Innistrad's moon isn't going to make it easier for her to mess with than a regular moon. (The fact that it's magic might make it easier for her to affect, but that's another matter entirely.)
I've had diarrhea better than the Nahiri=Avacyn debate.
That's even more ludicrous.
1. Jace has even less of an idea where Lili is than Lili has of Jace's whereabouts. Where would he even begin to look?
2. Jace literally just joined a group of planeswalkers he can ask for help.
3. What does Jace need from Lili anyway? Information about Innistrad? He's a mind mage: he can just take that directly from the brains of the locals. Protection? He's done fine on his own before, and someone with a history of betraying people (both in general, and you specifically) is a *****ty source of protection. Her necromancy? He's looking for a missing person, not trying to integrate into ghoulcaller society.
4. Jace already tried to get Lili to help. She outright refused, even though Jace made it clear he'd help her with the Chain Veil afterwards. She wasn't even willing to wait around for him to finish with Zendikar before he'd help her pro bono. Because when you're Liliana Vess, taking even one moment to stop looking out for number one is unacceptable. She didn't go to Zendikar in exchange for his help, she won't go to Innistrad in exchange for his help, and Jace knows it.
Well, your sig doesn't make that clear. Maybe if you stated that they're being ranked from most-wanted to least-wanted?
Yeah, although that's entirely dependent on whether or not WotC plans on giving more oldwalkers the Freyalise treatment.
I didn't miss that. Also, I'd read Unkindness of Ravens back when it first went up on the mothership. I think you missed the fact that that's still a stretch, and requires a couple of assumptions. The first being that she actually knows where to find Jace. Last time, when she found him on Ravnica, she made an educated guess that paid off. She has no reason to believe Jace is on Innistrad, so why would she check there? The second assumption is that she actually still wants Jace's help, and hasn't given up on getting it. Her final line in Unkindness of Ravens makes it crystal clear that she's going to try going it alone, and that she's fed up with Jace being a goody two-shoes. ThyLordQ even quoted that part; so, speaking of missing things...
I know, right?!?!
Except not having a reason to return is, itself, a reason to not return for Liliana. She wouldn't want to waste time backtracking when she's got two more demons to kill, and the ghosts of a dead civilization breathing down her neck. She's not like some other walkers, who wander where they want, and show up on whatever plane, just because they feel like it. She's got very specific goals, and is extremely resolute in her pursuit of those goals. WotC would need to give her a very specific reason to return. And, as I stated, it needs to be something new, that she couldn't/wouldn't have taken care of last time.
Again, "soon" could mean anything.
There are other places on Shandalar she could look. (Your local library!) A civilization like the Onakke don't just up and disappear without leaving anything behind.
Lili does, though.
Kothophed was the one who sent her to fetch the chain veil, though. And he even warned her about using it before she killed him, so he clearly knew something about the veil. Out of literally everyone in the multiverse, he's the best, most obvious lead Liliana has. Meanwhile, we have absolutely no evidence that Griselbrand even knew the thing existed. Even the idea that Griselbrand knew of Kothophed (or that there are plans beyond Innistrad) is unconfirmed; just because Kothophed knew of the other three, doesn't mean the other three knew of him, or each other. For that matter, we don't even know how much Kothophed knew of the other three, beyond the fact that they existed. Investigating Griselbrand, rather than returning to Shandalar or Kothophed's lair, makes no sense.
To be fair, if anything, that would suggest her going to investigate the Onakke. Like, returning to Kothophed's lair, and looking through his
diarystuff.WotC could always write in some reason for her to return to Innistrad, but make no mistake: it would require some plot contortions to make work. She currently has no reason to return, and more than a few to not return. And the new reason would have to be something she couldn't have, or wouldn't have, taken care of during her last visit.
And then she murdered all his friends. Lest we forget.
'Cause that's what Liliana does to people who aren't her, even the people she likes. She ruins their lives, and exploits them ruthlessly.
So, yeah, their relationship isn't exactly on stable ground; Jace is hardly going to jump at the chance to work with Lili. Heck, he was more eager to help Gideon, a guy he'd never met before, than Liliana.
"Shortly after" could mean a lot of things.
Yeah, uh huh, that's cool; Noyan Dar and Ayli got cards. Out of how many minor characters, though? Where are the cards for Chadir the Navigator, Bruse Tarl, Zahr Gada, Sachir, or dozens upon dozens upon dozens of others? Noyan and Ayli merely won the legendary lottery. Either WotC thought of a cool direction to take a character mentioned in flavor text, or they had a Legendary creature design that they thought they could slap a familiar name onto.
It's not impossible for that to happen to Jenrik, but he is an old hermit astronomer. That's not going to excite people nearly as much as, say, any given werewolf alpha, or one of the vampire bloodline progenitors. It's an extremely long shot.
Every set has nonlegendary rares and mythics, though. And just because they're not legendary doesn't mean they're boring cards. And just because you make a card legendary, doesn't mean it's automatically exciting.
Also, here's a thought: WotC makes up some new characters for SOI block, ones unfettered by previously established canon, giving them more freedom in designing their cards. Y'know, like they do every block. Like they did when they made Tazri and Jori En, in fact.
I said half, and there are four characters mentioned in your sig. Arixmethes is one of the two who I think actually has a chance. A kraken-back city is the sort of thing WotC can easily make a cool card around.