Without testing we wont no 'for sure' if G is worth it but the previous attempts at UG lists ended up on the cutting room floor (ie. they were poor).
Rivals does add 'something' to the card pool - but 100% GG merfolk will never work - I dont even know why ppl are suggesting it. Perhaps the UG Lord makes it into an aggro list but I would say that the chances of UG aggro merfolk deck being better then other aggro decks or Mono-U merfolk is very, very slim..
Nothing to see here really (with maybe the exception of the UG lord but i'm highly doubtful of that as the deck needs more solidly disruptive creatures not more beat sticks). What really needs to happen is another solid 1-drop that is mono-blue.
As I said when the Ixalan Merfolk came out - ppl will be hyped up by the new cards and make bold predictions for the archetype. Nothing happened after Ixalan and sadly nothing here to see so far either. The cards spoiled simply aren't good enough for modern.
I remember getting hammered on here for suggesting that UG was a bad option - it seems people are finally coming around to the fact that Mono- U is superior.
The reason I stated that UG was a bad option was that the green merfolk simply arent good enough to destroy your mana base over - turns out that this is exactly what ppl that play competitively are accepting.
Those that brew and have limited competitive experience will always advocate for 'thinking out of the box' and this is fine and dandy. However, the reality is that seasoned players of the archetype arent the 'dinosaurs' you think we are - we have good reasons based on experience to make the statements that we do.
Indeed nothing is stopping you from playing more U cards in UG but most ppl dont because they don't have the slots.
It's not just straight UW, UWR is also very popular and so cards like Kira, Kopala, Copters, Clique are all useful against Control lists. But for sure, nothing is stopping ppl playing more cards that aren't out and out beat sticks. If I was to play Merfolk again next week and play UG (the RUG experiment is probably over) - id be tempted to shave down to around 6-7 green merfolk and add in some number of Copters, Kopala and Kira. I also need to fit in some removal - just not sure how it is going to work playing dismember and not suiciding from the combined manabase and taking 4 dmg from a removal spell.
IMO the meta is full of decks that you have to interact with and the 'stock' UG lists are just begging to be rolled by any deck that you have to either interact with or defend yourself against. Merfolk isnt fast enough to blindly ignore the opponent - like Affinity or Elves does - and hope to win consistently.
This was a small event list configured to test a few silly somewhat out of place cards.
Cards like Kira, Kopola, Smugglers Copters (awesome against UW), MoW, plus the full set of Mutavaults would have been great - also Clique out of the sideboard hurts them. Its hard to play these cards in UG (or ridiculous builds like RUG) because you dont have the space with 8 green merfolk taking up slots or bolts as well in this case.
UG doesnt play more card advantage - the card selection off Branchwalker is pretty meh - its far better off Copter. Additionally UG lists dont even bother trying to interact anymore - Mono-U is in a far better position to play a reactive role and defend itself.
TEMUR Merfolk report. I increased the red mana sources to 9. Green sources at 12.
0-2 UW Control - was really hard to play around Verdict and still get in for damage due to Walls and Gideon Trials. Plenty of times id get verdicted with 1 dude on the board anyway. Field of Ruins kept hosing my surviving manlands. Sided most of the bolts out game 2/3. Ive won often on mono-blue before - this version just doesnt have any grind potential..
2-1 Burn - Bolt actually killed Lavamancer and Eidolon at clutch times. I thought the mana base was going to wreck me but my opponent got seas'd in one game and drew too many lands in another.
2-0 Living End - Bolt closed out a game I was prob going to win anyway.
Would have loved to play more creature centric decks (especially Affinity or Humans) - will I play it again? Only at low stakes events. Its far from proof with such a small sample size but it goes to show that pretty much any version of merfolk can potentially win matches..
//Creatures
2 Cursecatcher
3 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Kumena's Speaker
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
To be honest, if I ever move away from maindeck Masters, I'm increasingly thinking I want mainboard counterspells again. Being cold to all sorts of random stuff because I'm basically just a creature deck is getting a bit tiresome. It feels like I would breeze through so many Game 1s if I just had some maindeck Negates or Unified Wills. I may try that, actually.
If you want to go Temur then add atleast some Blood Moon effects. Rugfolk V2.4
The problem is that this loses to BGx.
I would say it loses to a lot more then just BGx - I mean you do know that blood moon absolutely hoses the new merfolk builds - not sure why you would want to hose yourself..
If Merfolk is going to go two colours why not go to three? UG is already weak to blood moon etc now - so I don't see how going to a 3rd colour makes any substantially negative difference to the manabase - anyway this is what im going to sleeve up tomorrow.
I present TEMUR merfolk! Want removal but you massacred your manabase to fit in green? Who needs dismember when you have LIGHTNING BOLT! Sure it won't kill Tasigur, TKS etc - but you can also go to the dome and close out that game with your opponent on three life.
Got the sh*t's losing to f'ing Affinity for the millionth time - say hello to ANCIENT GRUDGE. Lantern schmucks milling your Recall, Natural State into the bin - Ancient Grudge says f*ck you ensnaring bridge!
//Mana
2 Island
3 Botanical Sanctum
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Steam Vents
4 Mutavault
//Creatures
2 Cursecatcher
3 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Kumena's Speaker
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
@IslandsAreBroken
See, this is probably what comes off poorly. Of course there is no literal Tier 1.5 (anymore than there is a Tier 0), and yet it is a common colloquialism used to describe a deck on the cusp of being Tier 1, but not quite there. If you are as experienced as you seem, then you know that and I have to take your response as taking the piss or, to put it another way, as simply being pointlessly quarrelsome.
I'm also glad you did well with Eldrazi. Irrelevant to the point, but good on you.
It did not seem like you were responding to "bad theory". After all, my comment was not an assessment of the deck or theory-crafting, but a suggestion that we need to see more results and play with it before we can really know whether it is better, worse or same in power level to UU Merfolk, and to encourage argument and discussion without unconditional pre-judgments, and yet you seem to have taken issue with what I said as if I has somehow defended particular arguments or people in favor of UG.
I can't tell if your last phrase is sarcasm or a non-sequitur. The Humans deck might be very competitive (not losing a single match in 14 rounds (he draw in last round) and then through Top 8, is quite a feat), or Collins Mullen got very lucky in his range of matches (pretty much everyone who wins a big event has some luck in getting through), or it was just a really good choice for the meta and he made the exact right call, or, most likely, all of those. It could even have been a complete fluke. That has very little to do with the viability of UG Merfolk, hence why it seems like a non-squitur.
Bickering like this doesn't strengthen any theory-crafting you have done and it doesn't encourage anyone to listen to you, which would be a shame if you are a good player and brewer. People who want UG to work need people to point out holes in their approach, to question their assumptions, and so on. They also need to have a reason to read your posts rather than to automatically ignore them.
You were the one grandstanding about your amazing track record with Eldrazi. Everyone that played the deck knows that it was garbage without Balista - you seem to know better.
Well if everyone is ignoring my posts - why do you keep reading them?
@IslandsAreBroken
Actually, E-Tron was a Tier 1.5 deck until people figured out to incorporateWalking Ballista (it was released weeks before it made it's way into the deck.) It made Top 4 at GPT Brisbane and was reasonably frequently a 5-0 deck on MTGO. Even after people realized Ballista was good, it was another month+ before it made it to an automatic 4-of, with very heated discussion of 2 vs. 4.
The point being, it takes a little time for a solid shell to develop, if one can develop and I don't why you seem invested in seeing UG fail.
Also, Jeremy Bertarioni is (was?) 11-3 with UG Merfolk in a tournament where 5-color humans started out 12-0. How many people would have said that deck was a bad decision 4 weeks ago? The only real changes are the Pirate and Unclaimed Territory. And who would have guessed that it wouldn't play Collected Company or any non-creature spells aside from Aether Vial?
EDIT:
3:25pm EST
12-3 and looking at Top 8 if his tie-breakers hold.
@redtwister - actually there is no such thing as tier 1.5 - and I've played all flavours of Eldrazi - made day 2 of a GP with Eldrazi. The deck was pretty garbage without Balista - and that is well accepted.
I'm not invested in UG failing - ppl that advocated for it had poor theory. Maybe it will be a mainstay, maybe it wont - if 4C Humans won the tournament it must have been very competitive!
UG will either pan out or it won't. No one has enough data yet. Bant Spirits looked great, didn't really pan out. Eldrazi Tron wasn't taken seriously first Open I took it too, now it is highly tuned and a Tier 1 deck.
Argue, theory craft, make points, all important to see if UG actually coalesces into a deck. Also, UG does not make UU bad. Both could be strong, both could play differently in different metas, etc.
E-tron wasnt a good deck until Walking Ballista was printed - its going to take more for UG merfolk to put up consistent results
Dude - check your own behaviour - anyone can come up with hundreds of brew ideas - when one "sort of" works - you can then point at it with "pride". Point is the green merfolk idea is not your idea - loads of ppl considered it - but you can claim merfolk pilferer - I guarantee that is an original.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
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Rivals does add 'something' to the card pool - but 100% GG merfolk will never work - I dont even know why ppl are suggesting it. Perhaps the UG Lord makes it into an aggro list but I would say that the chances of UG aggro merfolk deck being better then other aggro decks or Mono-U merfolk is very, very slim..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
As I said when the Ixalan Merfolk came out - ppl will be hyped up by the new cards and make bold predictions for the archetype. Nothing happened after Ixalan and sadly nothing here to see so far either. The cards spoiled simply aren't good enough for modern.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
I guess we better tippy toe around you then - so precious
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
The reason I stated that UG was a bad option was that the green merfolk simply arent good enough to destroy your mana base over - turns out that this is exactly what ppl that play competitively are accepting.
Those that brew and have limited competitive experience will always advocate for 'thinking out of the box' and this is fine and dandy. However, the reality is that seasoned players of the archetype arent the 'dinosaurs' you think we are - we have good reasons based on experience to make the statements that we do.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FishMTG/comments/7fr3dp/feeling_like_ug_is_more_trouble_than_its_worth/?st=JAIN81PS&sh=23fd0399
Further to this Nikachu is of a similar mind regarding this problem.
EDIT: furthermore you cannot play Dismember in a UG list - another huge problem with abandoning the well proven mono U list
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
It's not just straight UW, UWR is also very popular and so cards like Kira, Kopala, Copters, Clique are all useful against Control lists. But for sure, nothing is stopping ppl playing more cards that aren't out and out beat sticks. If I was to play Merfolk again next week and play UG (the RUG experiment is probably over) - id be tempted to shave down to around 6-7 green merfolk and add in some number of Copters, Kopala and Kira. I also need to fit in some removal - just not sure how it is going to work playing dismember and not suiciding from the combined manabase and taking 4 dmg from a removal spell.
IMO the meta is full of decks that you have to interact with and the 'stock' UG lists are just begging to be rolled by any deck that you have to either interact with or defend yourself against. Merfolk isnt fast enough to blindly ignore the opponent - like Affinity or Elves does - and hope to win consistently.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Cards like Kira, Kopola, Smugglers Copters (awesome against UW), MoW, plus the full set of Mutavaults would have been great - also Clique out of the sideboard hurts them. Its hard to play these cards in UG (or ridiculous builds like RUG) because you dont have the space with 8 green merfolk taking up slots or bolts as well in this case.
UG doesnt play more card advantage - the card selection off Branchwalker is pretty meh - its far better off Copter. Additionally UG lists dont even bother trying to interact anymore - Mono-U is in a far better position to play a reactive role and defend itself.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
0-2 UW Control - was really hard to play around Verdict and still get in for damage due to Walls and Gideon Trials. Plenty of times id get verdicted with 1 dude on the board anyway. Field of Ruins kept hosing my surviving manlands. Sided most of the bolts out game 2/3. Ive won often on mono-blue before - this version just doesnt have any grind potential..
2-1 Burn - Bolt actually killed Lavamancer and Eidolon at clutch times. I thought the mana base was going to wreck me but my opponent got seas'd in one game and drew too many lands in another.
2-0 Living End - Bolt closed out a game I was prob going to win anyway.
Would have loved to play more creature centric decks (especially Affinity or Humans) - will I play it again? Only at low stakes events. Its far from proof with such a small sample size but it goes to show that pretty much any version of merfolk can potentially win matches..
//Mana
2 Island
4 Botanical Sanctum
1 Spirebluff Canal
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
3 Mutavault
//Creatures
2 Cursecatcher
3 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Kumena's Speaker
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
//Non-creature spells
4 Æther Vial
4 Spreading Seas
4 Lightning Bolt
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Dispel
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Unified Will
SB: 2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 Sea's Claim
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Perhaps V. Clique main?
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
I would say it loses to a lot more then just BGx - I mean you do know that blood moon absolutely hoses the new merfolk builds - not sure why you would want to hose yourself..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
I present TEMUR merfolk! Want removal but you massacred your manabase to fit in green? Who needs dismember when you have LIGHTNING BOLT! Sure it won't kill Tasigur, TKS etc - but you can also go to the dome and close out that game with your opponent on three life.
Got the sh*t's losing to f'ing Affinity for the millionth time - say hello to ANCIENT GRUDGE. Lantern schmucks milling your Recall, Natural State into the bin - Ancient Grudge says f*ck you ensnaring bridge!
//Mana
2 Island
3 Botanical Sanctum
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Steam Vents
4 Mutavault
//Creatures
2 Cursecatcher
3 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Kumena's Speaker
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
//Non-creature spells
4 Æther Vial
4 Spreading Seas
4 Lightning Bolt
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Dispel
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Ceremonious Rejection
SB: 2 Unified Will
SB: 2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
You were the one grandstanding about your amazing track record with Eldrazi. Everyone that played the deck knows that it was garbage without Balista - you seem to know better.
Well if everyone is ignoring my posts - why do you keep reading them?
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
@redtwister - actually there is no such thing as tier 1.5 - and I've played all flavours of Eldrazi - made day 2 of a GP with Eldrazi. The deck was pretty garbage without Balista - and that is well accepted.
I'm not invested in UG failing - ppl that advocated for it had poor theory. Maybe it will be a mainstay, maybe it wont - if 4C Humans won the tournament it must have been very competitive!
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
E-tron wasnt a good deck until Walking Ballista was printed - its going to take more for UG merfolk to put up consistent results
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver