for me, it's been rest in peace, ooze, relic, and leyline. That is all the hate that I have encountered recently. In terms of sb, rest in peace and relic are the most common. Ooze is often seen main board in jund/ abzan and occasionally chord decks.
I'm seeing a lot of Dakmor Salvage in the lists going 5-0. I've never tried this card myself. What has been everyone's experience with the card for those who have used it before? I guess it works nicely for more all-in dredge style lists. I'm still hesitant to use it as it comes in tapped and only adds B in a low land count deck that is really colour hungry.
It's very good if you are in the all in dredge list. I've had the most experience using it there, and it's great. It lets you get to three mana and allows you to keep one land hands and be okay. I've had games where I keep a one lander, play an insolent neonate, dredge 6, then hit a dakmor salvage and dredge it back on my draw step followed up by a faithless looting or something. If you are on the bloodghast version, being able to trigger landfall easily with it helps a ton.
I Think this is the correct way to go with it. I've been quite consistent on having my library be 30 cards or less by turn 2 with proper mulligans. There are times the deck loses to itself, however it has the ability to kill on turn 4 with little interaction. Of course no list is ever perfect, but so far I think this is on the right track.
In terms of Goblin Lore, It seems essential to the all in dredge combo. The draw 4 on it is nuts in dredge. It's a modern legal Breakthrough and since we are dredge and not another type of combo deck, the random discard 3 doesn't matter at all to us. I would try 4, but at the moment It's hard to find space for it. On the numbers, it often got me between 15-24 cards in the graveyard from the matches I played(note: this is an estimate from the games I played, not a statistic).
I'd like to note that Vengeful Pharaoh has been helping a ton with buying you time. Against aggressive decks, it often is a free kill spell for their creatures that you can keep dredging back. If you ever get both of them going, it's going to be hard for your opponent to keep throwing out creatures at you. I would play 4, but once again, the slots are tight.
Dakmor Salvage has been very helpful in this list, which is why I upped it to three. In terms of the full on combo, you need to have 3 mana two of which is black. Salvage helps you hit your land drop by dredging 3 as well as allowing you to use your mana to cast other spells. I used to play life from the loam to help me get to my third land drop, however it slowed me down, and was not as good as it could be in this list. I have no lands main board that can abuse it, so it's a two mana ramp spell which is pretty mediocre.
I've also noticed that the instant speed ability of Drownyard Temple helps this list fight against random hate you might encounter. It's usually not super relevant, however it has it's advantages. I've dodged thinks like main board wrath effects on my prized amalgams, maelstrom pulse, and things like anger of the gods. The only thing they will have the chance to kill before the end step is bloodghast, which often doesn't matter.
In terms of the sideboard, Gnaw to the Bone, Ancient Grudge, and Thoughtseize are the only ones I've liked. They all have relevance, and I've been pleased with the games I've used them in. The rest of the board is pretty wide open. I'd love to hear suggestions on what to add. Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime are for control decks / blue decks. Against combo they have often felt too slow. Even then, they have not felt as effective as they have in other lists I've used them in. Ghost quarter is for tron, but that seems like an okay match up provided they don't O-stone or relic you. Beast Within is there for random graveyard hate or permanents you want to deal with. I'm not sure if it's good to run, since it gives your opponent a 3/3. I think it's safe to say that the board needs some work, it still is kinda janky in some areas.
In terms of matchups, I think it's pretty similar to those addressed in the primer.
Looks like I was on the right track calling for goblin lore. I'd like to see how the games play out, but the deck looks interesting. The numbers are quite different than normal lists, and narcoemeba instead of blood ghast looks very interesting. Seems to very similar towards the idea of dredging as fast as possible.
I essentially took out life from the loam and added dakmor salvage in place of it. It lets you get to 3 mana fast, and basically makes the mana-base RB, which helps a ton. Additionally, it gives you a land to trigger bloodghast and sometimes mini combo with bloodghast and amalgam, which is great. I'm really liking goblin lore, when it works, you can sometimes have 30 cards in the yard on turn two, and then kill on turn three. It's really oriented towards dredging as fast as possible, and can have some explosive starts.
if you want to put a lot of cards in the gaveyard very fast try dangerous wager, you can easily put 5-6 from hand and 10-12 from 2 dredgers, so with this card alone you can have between 20-24 cards in the gy by the third turn
with the drownyard tech this deck could become a dangerous wager + drownyard combo that can win on t4
I actually tested it before. The issue is that the tradeoff for discarding your hand to draw 2 is just not worth it. Tormented voice does this much more efficiently.
@ Raptor_56 - I would imagine Burning Enquiry is the better card compared to Goblin Lore. It costs 1, which is pretty relevant. However, for pure speed (at filling GY), I found Simian Spirit Guide to be quite handy. It allows you to Tormenting Voice on T1, or even double-loot/neonate. It may be useful to have the odd Narcoemba too, as it'll trigger Amalgam's and is another free creature. You probably have too many lands too. You could drop down to 17 lands and replace those with Loams. This allows you to cheat on your mana, adds extra dredgers and overall makes the deck more explosive. If you were to do that, the blackcleave cliffs would go for me (as having more fetches is preferable).
At a guess, I'd do something like:
-2 Drownyard +2 Spirit Guide
-1 Thug +1 Loam
-2 Blackcleave +2 Loam
-3 Goblin Lore, +1 Spirit Guide, +2 Narcoemba/Burning Enquiry
You may then need to tweak your manabase a little (more fetches, less targets). But I think that would give you some more consistency as you'll have more dredgers, a few ramp spells and less lands to naturally draw in your opener.
Thanks for the advice, but did you look at the updated list I put in the edit? I made some of the adjustments you suggested in that list.
New to the dredge primer. I've been brewing a lot with dredge since shadows over innistrad came out, and came up with a list that is similar to how the dredge variant in legacy works. I have not seen this idea anywhere else, but I'm sure the idea has been discussed somewhere.
The main goal of the deck is to simple dump your library into the yard as fast as possible. I've gold-fished and done this by turn 3 (like 40 cards in gy), but the list has consistency issues, and the numbers need adjustments ( i'm pretty sure this is not 60 cards). Additionally, It needs some sort of grind plan to allow to disrupt the opponents game plan long enough for us to combo off. sideboard ideas would be appreciated.
I'll walk through how the "Magical Christmas Land" scenario plays out. You start by casting faithless looting and getting a dredger in the yard, or using Insolent Neonate to dredge and hopefully hit a second dredger. After that, you use things like tormenting voice and Goblin Lore to dredge a large portion of your deck. By turn 3, you play your third land and play a looting from the yard, and hopefully have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard at this point. Keep in mind, you are also always dredging on all your draw steps, or doing this when appropriate.
Now this is where the combo comes in. On turn 4, after you have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard, you pass and keep up 3 mana. At the end of your opponents second main phase, you bring Drownyard Temple from your graveyard into play, and then trigger bloodghast. When it's their end step, Prized Amalgam triggers, and you return them into play. Now it's your turn, and you can dredge on your draw step if you feel it's necessary. You then cast 2 gravecrawlers from your graveyard, triggering vengevines. You then move to combat, and proceed to attack with bloodghasts, vengevines, and Prized Amalgams for a hopefully lethal amount of damage. Since we're still assuming this is magical christmas land, you have the ability to attack with 36 power, which should be lethal. On a side note, this deck does have the ability to have mini combos. Bringing back 3 bloodghast and 3 amalgam is sometimes good enough depending on the match up.
This of course is not going to happen every game. The list is going to be clunky, and you might have to use life from the loam to get your third land sometimes. If there is someway to give it more of a grind game, or improve its consistency, then it might be a thing. But until then, it's more of a concept than anything. Additionally, like a lot of all in dredge lists, graveyard hate hurts this deck a ton, so keep that in mind. thoughts?
I like this list, but still am unsure about the drownyard. I actually thought about putting one in my deck but the 3 mana cost to bring it back for a colorless mana seems like it wouldn't be worth. I get the ability to combo on their turn, but honestly I don't think it really matters that much with this deck. Leaving 3 land open would be good if it also allowed you the option of playing some instant spells to interact with your opponent, but merely comboing on their turn brings creatures back to the battlefield that can't block either way. The big benefit I guess is they wouldn't be susceptible to burn spells. Even then, it would still only be a last resort situation. But I do like the build otherwise. Have you thought about wild guess instead of goblin lore? It's two R but it allows you to selectively discard.
Thanks. I suppose it's not necessary to have the drownyard. After all there are many lists in this thread that don't run it and they look fine to me. The whole idea for running it is to allow for a turn where you swarm the board. It's aiming to mimic bridge from below into flame kin zealott, but I don't think it's required, I just thought it looked fun. In terms of wild guess, The mana cost was what turned me away from it. You don't always have double red, and I found it hard to always do so consistently. I like Goblin lore since it kinda mimics breakthrough in a way, and the random discard usually doesn't matter.
New to the dredge primer. I've been brewing a lot with dredge since shadows over innistrad came out, and came up with a list that is similar to how the dredge variant in legacy works. I have not seen this idea anywhere else, but I'm sure the idea has been discussed somewhere.
The main goal of the deck is to simple dump your library into the yard as fast as possible. I've gold-fished and done this by turn 3 (like 40 cards in gy), but the list has consistency issues, and the numbers need adjustments ( i'm pretty sure this is not 60 cards). Additionally, It needs some sort of grind plan to allow to disrupt the opponents game plan long enough for us to combo off. sideboard ideas would be appreciated.
I'll walk through how the "Magical Christmas Land" scenario plays out. You start by casting faithless looting and getting a dredger in the yard, or using Insolent Neonate to dredge and hopefully hit a second dredger. After that, you use things like tormenting voice and Goblin Lore to dredge a large portion of your deck. By turn 3, you play your third land and play a looting from the yard, and hopefully have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard at this point. Keep in mind, you are also always dredging on all your draw steps, or doing this when appropriate.
Now this is where the combo comes in. On turn 4, after you have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard, you pass and keep up 3 mana. At the end of your opponents second main phase, you bring Drownyard Temple from your graveyard into play, and then trigger bloodghast. When it's their end step, Prized Amalgam triggers, and you return them into play. Now it's your turn, and you can dredge on your draw step if you feel it's necessary. You then cast 2 gravecrawlers from your graveyard, triggering vengevines. You then move to combat, and proceed to attack with bloodghasts, vengevines, and Prized Amalgams for a hopefully lethal amount of damage. Since we're still assuming this is magical christmas land, you have the ability to attack with 36 power, which should be lethal. On a side note, this deck does have the ability to have mini combos. Bringing back 3 bloodghast and 3 amalgam is sometimes good enough depending on the match up.
This of course is not going to happen every game. The list is going to be clunky, and you might have to use life from the loam to get your third land sometimes. If there is someway to give it more of a grind game, or improve its consistency, then it might be a thing. But until then, it's more of a concept than anything. Additionally, like a lot of all in dredge lists, graveyard hate hurts this deck a ton, so keep that in mind. thoughts?
for me, it's been rest in peace, ooze, relic, and leyline. That is all the hate that I have encountered recently. In terms of sb, rest in peace and relic are the most common. Ooze is often seen main board in jund/ abzan and occasionally chord decks.
It's very good if you are in the all in dredge list. I've had the most experience using it there, and it's great. It lets you get to three mana and allows you to keep one land hands and be okay. I've had games where I keep a one lander, play an insolent neonate, dredge 6, then hit a dakmor salvage and dredge it back on my draw step followed up by a faithless looting or something. If you are on the bloodghast version, being able to trigger landfall easily with it helps a ton.
4 Vengevine
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Gravecrawler
3 Bloodghast
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
Dredgers [11]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 (I have 3 salvage in the land base)
Engine Pieces [14]
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless looting
3 Tormenting Voice
3 Goblin Lore
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Drownyard Temple
1 Mountain
3 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
2 Raven's Crime
2 Beast Within
2 Ghost Quarter
I Think this is the correct way to go with it. I've been quite consistent on having my library be 30 cards or less by turn 2 with proper mulligans. There are times the deck loses to itself, however it has the ability to kill on turn 4 with little interaction. Of course no list is ever perfect, but so far I think this is on the right track.
In terms of Goblin Lore, It seems essential to the all in dredge combo. The draw 4 on it is nuts in dredge. It's a modern legal Breakthrough and since we are dredge and not another type of combo deck, the random discard 3 doesn't matter at all to us. I would try 4, but at the moment It's hard to find space for it. On the numbers, it often got me between 15-24 cards in the graveyard from the matches I played(note: this is an estimate from the games I played, not a statistic).
I'd like to note that Vengeful Pharaoh has been helping a ton with buying you time. Against aggressive decks, it often is a free kill spell for their creatures that you can keep dredging back. If you ever get both of them going, it's going to be hard for your opponent to keep throwing out creatures at you. I would play 4, but once again, the slots are tight.
Dakmor Salvage has been very helpful in this list, which is why I upped it to three. In terms of the full on combo, you need to have 3 mana two of which is black. Salvage helps you hit your land drop by dredging 3 as well as allowing you to use your mana to cast other spells. I used to play life from the loam to help me get to my third land drop, however it slowed me down, and was not as good as it could be in this list. I have no lands main board that can abuse it, so it's a two mana ramp spell which is pretty mediocre.
I've also noticed that the instant speed ability of Drownyard Temple helps this list fight against random hate you might encounter. It's usually not super relevant, however it has it's advantages. I've dodged thinks like main board wrath effects on my prized amalgams, maelstrom pulse, and things like anger of the gods. The only thing they will have the chance to kill before the end step is bloodghast, which often doesn't matter.
In terms of the sideboard, Gnaw to the Bone, Ancient Grudge, and Thoughtseize are the only ones I've liked. They all have relevance, and I've been pleased with the games I've used them in. The rest of the board is pretty wide open. I'd love to hear suggestions on what to add. Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime are for control decks / blue decks. Against combo they have often felt too slow. Even then, they have not felt as effective as they have in other lists I've used them in. Ghost quarter is for tron, but that seems like an okay match up provided they don't O-stone or relic you. Beast Within is there for random graveyard hate or permanents you want to deal with. I'm not sure if it's good to run, since it gives your opponent a 3/3. I think it's safe to say that the board needs some work, it still is kinda janky in some areas.
In terms of matchups, I think it's pretty similar to those addressed in the primer.
EDIT: some typo's
Looks like I was on the right track calling for goblin lore. I'd like to see how the games play out, but the deck looks interesting. The numbers are quite different than normal lists, and narcoemeba instead of blood ghast looks very interesting. Seems to very similar towards the idea of dredging as fast as possible.
EDIT: spelling
4 Vengevine
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Gravecrawler
3 Bloodghast
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
Dredgers [10]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 (I have 2 salvage in the land base)
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless looting
4 Tormenting Voice
2 Goblin Lore
Lands [22]
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Drownyard Temple
1 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
I essentially took out life from the loam and added dakmor salvage in place of it. It lets you get to 3 mana fast, and basically makes the mana-base RB, which helps a ton. Additionally, it gives you a land to trigger bloodghast and sometimes mini combo with bloodghast and amalgam, which is great. I'm really liking goblin lore, when it works, you can sometimes have 30 cards in the yard on turn two, and then kill on turn three. It's really oriented towards dredging as fast as possible, and can have some explosive starts.
I actually tested it before. The issue is that the tradeoff for discarding your hand to draw 2 is just not worth it. Tormented voice does this much more efficiently.
Thanks for the advice, but did you look at the updated list I put in the edit? I made some of the adjustments you suggested in that list.
Thanks. I suppose it's not necessary to have the drownyard. After all there are many lists in this thread that don't run it and they look fine to me. The whole idea for running it is to allow for a turn where you swarm the board. It's aiming to mimic bridge from below into flame kin zealott, but I don't think it's required, I just thought it looked fun. In terms of wild guess, The mana cost was what turned me away from it. You don't always have double red, and I found it hard to always do so consistently. I like Goblin lore since it kinda mimics breakthrough in a way, and the random discard usually doesn't matter.
4 color manabase is not where you want to be, at least with this list. It slows you down a ton, and forces you to make major changes to the manabase.
4 Vengevine
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
Dredgers [10]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Life from the Loam
1 Golgari Thug
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless looting
4 Tormenting Voice
3 Goblin Lore
2 Drownyard Temple
Lands [19] [21 if you count temples]
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
The main goal of the deck is to simple dump your library into the yard as fast as possible. I've gold-fished and done this by turn 3 (like 40 cards in gy), but the list has consistency issues, and the numbers need adjustments ( i'm pretty sure this is not 60 cards). Additionally, It needs some sort of grind plan to allow to disrupt the opponents game plan long enough for us to combo off. sideboard ideas would be appreciated.
I'll walk through how the "Magical Christmas Land" scenario plays out. You start by casting faithless looting and getting a dredger in the yard, or using Insolent Neonate to dredge and hopefully hit a second dredger. After that, you use things like tormenting voice and Goblin Lore to dredge a large portion of your deck. By turn 3, you play your third land and play a looting from the yard, and hopefully have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard at this point. Keep in mind, you are also always dredging on all your draw steps, or doing this when appropriate.
Now this is where the combo comes in. On turn 4, after you have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard, you pass and keep up 3 mana. At the end of your opponents second main phase, you bring Drownyard Temple from your graveyard into play, and then trigger bloodghast. When it's their end step, Prized Amalgam triggers, and you return them into play. Now it's your turn, and you can dredge on your draw step if you feel it's necessary. You then cast 2 gravecrawlers from your graveyard, triggering vengevines. You then move to combat, and proceed to attack with bloodghasts, vengevines, and Prized Amalgams for a hopefully lethal amount of damage. Since we're still assuming this is magical christmas land, you have the ability to attack with 36 power, which should be lethal. On a side note, this deck does have the ability to have mini combos. Bringing back 3 bloodghast and 3 amalgam is sometimes good enough depending on the match up.
This of course is not going to happen every game. The list is going to be clunky, and you might have to use life from the loam to get your third land sometimes. If there is someway to give it more of a grind game, or improve its consistency, then it might be a thing. But until then, it's more of a concept than anything. Additionally, like a lot of all in dredge lists, graveyard hate hurts this deck a ton, so keep that in mind. thoughts?
EDIT: here is a updated list
4 Vengevine
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Gravecrawler
3 Bloodghast
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
Dredgers [10]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Life from the Loam
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless looting
4 Tormenting Voice
1 Goblin Lore
Lands [21]
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Drownyard Temple
2 Mountain