Without the shocks and fetches things get harder... fetches are particularly useful against Blood Moon decks. You probably cannot afford to run Sculler in a build without these lands. Maybe you build it like this:
You're quite light for T1 IoK or Thoughtseize like this, but should be OK for most of your other spells. This deck doesn't always have a lot to do on T2 anyway, which is the curse of Orzhov Midrange, unless you're playing Dark Confidant. My first priority here would be getting the Godless Shrines and replacing the Temples of Silence and maybe a Vent.
Hope I don't come across as too much of a Negative Nellie here, but hopefully I can save some recent commenters some time with my own experience playing this deck.
I'm curious about whether Unclaimed Territory is worth slotting in? I've put together a budget version and have slotted it in to help with casting Sculler but am unsure whether its worth it.
I'm sorry to say that this list doesn't work, because it's not nearly color-intensive enough in the land base to cast the non-creature spells. Frank Karsten has written some articles that are absolute gold for deck building:
Anyone who hasn't read these yet and who values building or tweaking their own lists, should read them right away and probably bookmark these two links.
In short, TardisDad, The Territorys (and Fields, and Vault, and Grounds, and Wreckage, etc.) are going to prevent you from casting your Inquisitions, Paths, etc. This deck has a surprisingly difficult manabase. You need a TON of B/W duals to play Sculler on-curve and then also play your instants and sorceries as well. Playing duals on-curve means a fetch/shock manabase, which is bound to increase the cost of this deck.
I want to start playing this deck just so I can cast TKS and Liliana in the same deck, is it too much to ask??
Well, again, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but... yeah, it's probably too much to ask.
Lili decks almost always play a 2 CMC threat BEFORE they play Lili. They also tend to max out at 3 CMC, with only one or two four-drops in the main in the higher-curve Abzan lists. What Lili is going to do is to make you discard either the big Eldrazi you want to cast, or the land you need in order to cast it.
Processor lists aren't good because of Strangler and Herder's exile-effect bonuses. They're good because maindeck Relic is much better than most people reckon with, PLUS the processing value (when it happens), PLUS the amazing OGW Eldrazi cards, PLUS the fact that they run some of the best B/W cards in the format--just not Liliana of the Veil.
Sculler is better disruption than Freebooter without a doubt, but it can almost never attack, and it is so demanding on the manabase. I'd be tempted to test it for sure if I pick this deck up again.
Yuck, I feel like I keep reading about Expedition Map in Eldrazi builds where it's terrible. The problem with Map is that it's best if it eats up your turn 1 and 2 but then pays off with something completely over the top. Seer or Smasher don't qualify, especially when you could just go back to the Mind Stone that was once very popular and and use it to land those ahead of curve. Map is no good.
Not sure if Displacer is so great in the Abzan deck--what's it gonna flicker for value? TKS is all you got there. And you definitely don't want to flicker a Scooze under most circumstances.
I think the Abzan build looks like it's trying to be Bant with Spirit tokens and more removal. I doubt that it is better than Bant or BW.
I agree that go-wide creature decks are traditionally a tough match for BW Processors.
Thanks for the report, Polymorph. Your posted list looks similar to what I was running before I started trying out the Scullers again. It's definitely running a more aggressive, creature-beats gameplan, and I think Matter Reshaper is amazing in that shell. As you say, not so sure about 2x Cavern of Souls though. Question: How is Sea Gate Wreckage playing out for you? Has it fed Collective Brutality for you at all?
I think the two-drop slot in an Eldrazi deck is a little unusual. With a Temple in play, either Reshaper or Eternal Scourge are excellent T2 plays. The Sculler build suffers for not having that option since Strangler is far, far weaker on T2 than either, if it can't process.
Got creamed last night going 2-3. The deck kinda crapped out on me though, more variance than anything else I'd say. I beat Bant Eldrazi and Grixis Midrange/Control easily, both 2-0, and lost in a rout to Dredge, Grishoalbrand,and Skred. For example, in the Dredge match I mulled to 5 in G2 and saw only one Relic, on about T4. Vs. both Skred and Grishoalbrand, my opponents simply topdecked the exact card they needed while dead on board the following turn... in all four games.
Topdecks are a real thing with hand disruption and so we need additional control angles. Fragmentize is not great but I think its biggest downside is actually that it can't hit Chalice of the Void on one. Personally I don't find the Eldrazi Tron matchup easy at all.
Think I might put Smasher #4 back in over Scourge, since Smasher is such an important win con for the deck. Maybe I'll try a Herder in that slot instead just for kicks though.
FanTan444, I think the manlands are pretty important actually. The build is a little threat-light without them, IMO.
Remember that Cavern of Souls doesn't only get creatures through permission. More importantly, it is a "tri-land" of sorts, that produces the mana we need for any of our creatures.
Though the main plan against Blood Moon with this build is to rip it out of our opponent's hand, that is not going to be possible all the time. And if it resolves with no Plains on deck, then that is a game we will almost certainly lose. I hate that a lot. So I want fetches. I also hate playing out dead fetches, and feel I need at least five lands on deck to feel happy, so I definitely feel strongly that it's important to balance fetch lands against fetch targets. Three fetches to five targets has been perfect in my experience, and I have often had to play a dead fetch in the past with a higher ratio that that. The second (and third) Godless Shrine is painful, true, but the damage can often be minimized by sequencing. (Sequencing like that is harder against fast decks, and I lost on Monday to an 8-Whack deck because of a shock land I sequenced incorrectly.) But I want reliable Sculler mana on T2 as often as possible, so I am willing to take the hit for a Shrine rather than roll the dice with extra basics. Weakening the resilience of the deck to Path and GQ is also not great, but tradeoffs have to be made for a greedy T2 play like Tidehollow Sculler.
Urborg could mitigate dead fetches by allowing them to tap for B, but unless you run Liliana or some other BB-cost spell in the main deck, it will not help with color fixing. Damnation and Flaying Tendrils et al. out of the SB are not reason enough to play one. After the Eye of Ugin ban, I don't think this is the deck for Urborg at all, actually.
Having reliable T2 BW makes me want to run Zealous Persecution again, which is an excellent sweeper against decks like Affinity, Company decks, Elves, and Goblin builds, and also would let Sculler and Strangler (plus obviously Spirit tokens) punch way above their weight in combat. Probably room for one in the side but I'm damned if I know where right now.
Eternal Scourge is amazing against Uxx control decks, doubly so when backed up by Cavern of Souls and/or Relic to keep it out of the graveyard.
EDIT: The all-in disruption Sculler build does seem better than the more generalized way I've been running it. Eighteen unconditional sources for Sculler on T2 seems to work fine, and I really like the Mutavaults, which can add enough juice to close out on key turns. Seeing and disrupting an opponent's plans throughout the game is extremely powerful--I don't know of any other decks (including 8-Rack and classic Jund) that feature anything like as much hand disruption as this build does.
Just beat up on a bunch of decks on cockatrice (8-0 in games), as well as having a pretty good overall record at my past three FNM-type events, where I am 9-3-1. My LGS is filled with lots of good players on tiered decks, and regularly pulls 30-40+ players twice weekly, so it is pretty competitive.
Awesome play report, iostream! Thanks. I like your land package, looks like the only barrier to T2 Sculler is having Temple or both Swamps in a two-land keep. Seems to me you could cut Fetid Heath for another dual (a shock maybe?) since you have all those Caverns for C. I agree that threat density is important, though, which is why I like the Mutavaults for now. The fact that Eternal Scourge is so hard to get rid of has also seemed to help me with my threat density. I love Pithing Needle in the side BTW, but I also love having Anguished Unmaking in the 75. Cast Out seems like a reasonable replacement for Unmaking, especially in the main. Both Needle and Cast Out (and O=Ring) seem much worse than Unmaking against UW Control, though, which can bounce with Cryptic Command and also neutralize permanent-based hate with Detention Sphere.
SovereignMars, welcome and thanks for stopping by (I'm the guy who spoke up on reddit). I dig your newer manabase much better than the old one. My experience with Displacer dovetails with yours. Hope you'll continue to post up as you play and tune your list.
jwf239: Ha, I was running a BW Midrange build for quite a while that used Pack Rat (and also Percy) as win cons. Then the original BW Processors list (with Herder and Oblivion Sower) popped up, and I've been trying to make this a thing ever since. Feels like I'm coming full circle to see that idea pop up again.
As far as I can tell, the Sculler build idea is really just going all-in on hand disruption. I want to make that work as well as possible in the early game, when the power of disruption is highest. This means casting IoK/TS on T1 and Sculler on T2 with Seer on T3/4 as often as possible. That pressures the lands no matter how you slice it. Apparently, I am indeed arrogant enough to think that the performing decklists we've seen are not optimized yet in some important ways. So here is what I'm trying out:
Three fetch lands to help with Blood Moon. Three shocks to ensure we don't get dead fetches with only two basics in the deck. I think not running fetches is very poor practice.
24 lands gets us to Seer and Smasher on-curve about 4-5% more often than 23, which this deck arguably supports.
15 sources for B on T1, and 18 ways to get BW on T2. By design, any two of the color-producing lands work to cast T2 Sculler. (The goal for a 90% reliable on-curve Sculler is 20 workable lands, so this is close. And we're over the 14-source T1 goal for IoK/TS.)
11 C-lands exactly hits the 90% on-curve target for Seer. Fetid Heath plays a crucial role in this deck, but quickly gets worse in multiples. One is perfect.
Though Cavern of Souls and Vault of the Archangel were occasionally game-winners on their own, Mutavault is far more frequently relevant than either. I've been liking it a lot, but there is no room for more than 2. Cavern actually works to cast Sculler on T2 just as well as any dual does, so it may still have a role to pay in the build.
One Shambling Vent rounds out the manland package, while still permitting a T2 Sculler.
Ghost Quarter goes away because you can't have everything. GQ vs. Mutavault is probably an important meta decision.
One Eternal Scourge in the flex slot, because of its obvious synergy with Relic and its help in making the deck more threat-dense through recursion. Only three Smashers to lower the curve.
Two Fragmentize SB, because it turns out that this deck is pretty much dead to Leyline of Sanctity, and hitting that for only one mana could be extremely important. Sorcery speed is bad, but this should still help some with Affinity, which looks to be a rough matchup compared to other Processor builds. And it doesn't hurt that it targets Blood Moon as well (as long as we have that Plains, that is... did I mention I think it's important to play fetch lands?).
I played this--not particularly well--on Saturday (14 people, 2-2) and again today (43 people, 3-1) and am feeling out the differences to what I'm used to. The huge amount of hand disruption is very good and I like it. Sculler is skill testing and sometimes just bad, like against Searing Blaze, but overall seems to be better than I thought at first. I think it would not be a good idea to go below about 17 lands to cast it at a bare minimum, though.
The Eldrazi Displacer angle could be quite good, especially with Shriekmaw. (I actually don't think Shriekmaw really makes a lot of sense without Displacer.) But I don't think Matter Reshaper really fits the targeted nature of this build.
After the Kobe results I have been jamming this deck again to an unremarkable 3-2 record for each of the past several weekly events. Tonight I went 4-0-1 beating Grixis Shadow, GW Tron, Esper Geist Midrange, and Affinity. I drew against Dimir Control.
I have ditched the two Mind Stone for more threats, in the form of two Eternal Scourge. I'm also trying out two Mutavault and a Wastes maindeck, in the slots formerly occupied by Cavern of Souls, Vault of the Archangel, and one Ghost Quarter. As a result this iteration of the deck is considerably more threat-dense. The maindeck Relics continue to be amazing.
I am not playing Tidehollow Sculler for now. If I were to run it, I would put it in the place of the Matter Reshapers I guess, and also change the land package a lot. Maybe a build that's all-in on hand disruption like that is the way to go, but Sculler just dies to everything and it's not super common to process the card it has tucked away, which seems to make it more of a tempo play, which feels not too good in a deck that is as slow as this one is in the early game.
Thoughts:Shambling Vent was big for me tonight in a few games and I was glad I had it. Mutavault also factored into a couple of games too. I can definitely see Mutavault being useful way more frequently than either Vault or Cavern. Vault and Cavern are much narrower, but also certainly more powerful in the right matchup.
Scourge has been remarkably good, far better than I remember from the little bit of early testing I did when it was released. I really like that it greatly weakens opponents' targeted removal, like the other threats also do. I would not expect to get value out of say Eldrazi Displacer in the same way, which turns on the removal that otherwise is kind of just looking for a worthwhile target.
I'm not missing Mind Stone as much as I expected I would. Having two more resilient three-drop threats in those slots feels like an upgrade. However playing against Affinity and Tron makes me value Ghost Quarter pretty highly and I'm not sure I want to keep the manland/GQ balance where I have it right now.
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Lands (24)
You're quite light for T1 IoK or Thoughtseize like this, but should be OK for most of your other spells. This deck doesn't always have a lot to do on T2 anyway, which is the curse of Orzhov Midrange, unless you're playing Dark Confidant. My first priority here would be getting the Godless Shrines and replacing the Temples of Silence and maybe a Vent.
In short, TardisDad, The Territorys (and Fields, and Vault, and Grounds, and Wreckage, etc.) are going to prevent you from casting your Inquisitions, Paths, etc. This deck has a surprisingly difficult manabase. You need a TON of B/W duals to play Sculler on-curve and then also play your instants and sorceries as well. Playing duals on-curve means a fetch/shock manabase, which is bound to increase the cost of this deck.
Well, again, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but... yeah, it's probably too much to ask.
Lili decks almost always play a 2 CMC threat BEFORE they play Lili. They also tend to max out at 3 CMC, with only one or two four-drops in the main in the higher-curve Abzan lists. What Lili is going to do is to make you discard either the big Eldrazi you want to cast, or the land you need in order to cast it.
Processor lists aren't good because of Strangler and Herder's exile-effect bonuses. They're good because maindeck Relic is much better than most people reckon with, PLUS the processing value (when it happens), PLUS the amazing OGW Eldrazi cards, PLUS the fact that they run some of the best B/W cards in the format--just not Liliana of the Veil.
YMMV of course--just my $.02.
I think the Abzan build looks like it's trying to be Bant with Spirit tokens and more removal. I doubt that it is better than Bant or BW.
I agree that go-wide creature decks are traditionally a tough match for BW Processors.
I think the two-drop slot in an Eldrazi deck is a little unusual. With a Temple in play, either Reshaper or Eternal Scourge are excellent T2 plays. The Sculler build suffers for not having that option since Strangler is far, far weaker on T2 than either, if it can't process.
Topdecks are a real thing with hand disruption and so we need additional control angles. Fragmentize is not great but I think its biggest downside is actually that it can't hit Chalice of the Void on one. Personally I don't find the Eldrazi Tron matchup easy at all.
Think I might put Smasher #4 back in over Scourge, since Smasher is such an important win con for the deck. Maybe I'll try a Herder in that slot instead just for kicks though.
FanTan444, I think the manlands are pretty important actually. The build is a little threat-light without them, IMO.
Though the main plan against Blood Moon with this build is to rip it out of our opponent's hand, that is not going to be possible all the time. And if it resolves with no Plains on deck, then that is a game we will almost certainly lose. I hate that a lot. So I want fetches. I also hate playing out dead fetches, and feel I need at least five lands on deck to feel happy, so I definitely feel strongly that it's important to balance fetch lands against fetch targets. Three fetches to five targets has been perfect in my experience, and I have often had to play a dead fetch in the past with a higher ratio that that. The second (and third) Godless Shrine is painful, true, but the damage can often be minimized by sequencing. (Sequencing like that is harder against fast decks, and I lost on Monday to an 8-Whack deck because of a shock land I sequenced incorrectly.) But I want reliable Sculler mana on T2 as often as possible, so I am willing to take the hit for a Shrine rather than roll the dice with extra basics. Weakening the resilience of the deck to Path and GQ is also not great, but tradeoffs have to be made for a greedy T2 play like Tidehollow Sculler.
Urborg could mitigate dead fetches by allowing them to tap for B, but unless you run Liliana or some other BB-cost spell in the main deck, it will not help with color fixing. Damnation and Flaying Tendrils et al. out of the SB are not reason enough to play one. After the Eye of Ugin ban, I don't think this is the deck for Urborg at all, actually.
Having reliable T2 BW makes me want to run Zealous Persecution again, which is an excellent sweeper against decks like Affinity, Company decks, Elves, and Goblin builds, and also would let Sculler and Strangler (plus obviously Spirit tokens) punch way above their weight in combat. Probably room for one in the side but I'm damned if I know where right now.
Eternal Scourge is amazing against Uxx control decks, doubly so when backed up by Cavern of Souls and/or Relic to keep it out of the graveyard.
EDIT: The all-in disruption Sculler build does seem better than the more generalized way I've been running it. Eighteen unconditional sources for Sculler on T2 seems to work fine, and I really like the Mutavaults, which can add enough juice to close out on key turns. Seeing and disrupting an opponent's plans throughout the game is extremely powerful--I don't know of any other decks (including 8-Rack and classic Jund) that feature anything like as much hand disruption as this build does.
Just beat up on a bunch of decks on cockatrice (8-0 in games), as well as having a pretty good overall record at my past three FNM-type events, where I am 9-3-1. My LGS is filled with lots of good players on tiered decks, and regularly pulls 30-40+ players twice weekly, so it is pretty competitive.
SovereignMars, welcome and thanks for stopping by (I'm the guy who spoke up on reddit). I dig your newer manabase much better than the old one. My experience with Displacer dovetails with yours. Hope you'll continue to post up as you play and tune your list.
jwf239: Ha, I was running a BW Midrange build for quite a while that used Pack Rat (and also Percy) as win cons. Then the original BW Processors list (with Herder and Oblivion Sower) popped up, and I've been trying to make this a thing ever since. Feels like I'm coming full circle to see that idea pop up again.
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Fetid Heath
3x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
2x Mutavault
1x Plains
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
Creature (16)
1x Eternal Scourge
3x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wasteland Strangler
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (9)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
Artifact (4)
4x Relic of Progenitus
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
2x Fragmentize
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Stony Silence
The Eldrazi Displacer angle could be quite good, especially with Shriekmaw. (I actually don't think Shriekmaw really makes a lot of sense without Displacer.) But I don't think Matter Reshaper really fits the targeted nature of this build.
I have ditched the two Mind Stone for more threats, in the form of two Eternal Scourge. I'm also trying out two Mutavault and a Wastes maindeck, in the slots formerly occupied by Cavern of Souls, Vault of the Archangel, and one Ghost Quarter. As a result this iteration of the deck is considerably more threat-dense. The maindeck Relics continue to be amazing.
I am not playing Tidehollow Sculler for now. If I were to run it, I would put it in the place of the Matter Reshapers I guess, and also change the land package a lot. Maybe a build that's all-in on hand disruption like that is the way to go, but Sculler just dies to everything and it's not super common to process the card it has tucked away, which seems to make it more of a tempo play, which feels not too good in a deck that is as slow as this one is in the early game.
Thoughts: Shambling Vent was big for me tonight in a few games and I was glad I had it. Mutavault also factored into a couple of games too. I can definitely see Mutavault being useful way more frequently than either Vault or Cavern. Vault and Cavern are much narrower, but also certainly more powerful in the right matchup.
Scourge has been remarkably good, far better than I remember from the little bit of early testing I did when it was released. I really like that it greatly weakens opponents' targeted removal, like the other threats also do. I would not expect to get value out of say Eldrazi Displacer in the same way, which turns on the removal that otherwise is kind of just looking for a worthwhile target.
I'm not missing Mind Stone as much as I expected I would. Having two more resilient three-drop threats in those slots feels like an upgrade. However playing against Affinity and Tron makes me value Ghost Quarter pretty highly and I'm not sure I want to keep the manland/GQ balance where I have it right now.