Tidehollow is the most chosen primarily due to the wording and the amazing interaction with displacer. Kitesail is not what we are looking for though. If we drop the sculler build i would actually max out stranglers and insert more removal and tks/iok.
Ya if you are worried about being able to unvalue paths and gqs then fetch a shock even tapped. Conceled courtyard is good but I dont think 4 are necessary.
Against any combo deck we want both relic and thoughtsieze opening against them, and hopefully follow up with either a tks or a sculler. We should hardly ever loose any control/combo match due to the aggressiveness of our removal. Just review the combo decks and know when to remove or discard what to win those matchups. Burn and storm is all about either removing the key combo burn spell or removing their most efficient counter spell. Tks off an untapped shock to hit a boros charm and see their hand is never a bad play t1 or 2.
IMHO as long as old school tron is being less played, I think that cutting stuff like ghost quarters and some of the more specific tron hate might be doable. The sideboard is truly in a flux right now though, not entirely sure what angle to take on with modern. Pithing needles, ratchet bombs, Linvala, wraths, Stony? with the format going a bit more linear than normal I think we might have a few openings than normal. What is everyone going with in their sides as of late?
okay I do have to ask now that aether revolt is now spoiled. Do you think we will have to worry about the new bad twin combo (saheeli and the 4 cmc white beast). I know that modern has a great many other options, but this also seems like it is kind of fragile.
Spitballing Ideas here, but maybe this (http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/hiddenstocks.html) could help us smooth our draws. Since we have little card draw, maybe scrying is important. Might be a bad idea; not too sure. Making 1/1s and scrying every turn shouldnt be underestimated.
As an aside, I wonder if we can't afford to play more of a control deck with the inclusion of Fatal Push. Maybe we get to cut our Stranglers for Push, and Play Blight Herders in the Main as another haymaker, and a way to go over midrange and control. Our Aggro matchup will almost assuredly be better with this card, but I think we may find that we will be lacking on threats, especially because other decks with be playing Push as well. Herder not only dodges Push, but also makes a bunch of chump Blockers. In this way, our processors also don't compete for value. I think I may try this angle when Push is released, doing something like this:
-4 Strangler, -1 Anguished Unmaking(moved to the side)-1 Go For the Throat
+2 Blight Herder, +4 Fatal Push
Let me know what you think
I would not cut strangler. I would move one in the main with one or two in the side. strangler is another important control aspect in many forms for us, plus it makes relic all that much more worth it.
Okay firstly, when playing dredge. Your relic needs to be expertly placed. T1 is good at drawing out hate, but if you have discard (TKS, IOK, even collective brutality) you need to use it to help pick SB hate. If you have two relics, then dropping one and holding the other for a time will be a nasty surprise for mr. dredge. He will need to eat an exile at inconvenient times. Also watch their mana. They will tap out which gives you an opportunity to drop a relic which can cost them a turn at a minimum.
Secondly Tidehollow sculler is used for a few reasons. Primarily is his interaction with Eldrazi Displacer. If you "displace" him twice in a row, then you get a "free" exile from hand. Combine this with TKS then you are able to lock an opponents draws once you have 6 mana available (Eldrazi temple is gold here). This is an inevitability factor that cannot be avoided. Also in this situation when they draw a land, you get to further remove more of what little they have left in their hand.
G2 Trondrazi (2-1): G1 I locked him pretty handily with hand hate hitting bombs (Karn, Ugin, and pyroclasm), He started dropping bombs late and finally pulled the game out with a platinum emperion preventing me from closing the game. G2 Same set-up as the first game with me hitting Void Winnower and Ulamog with hand hate, than hitting him with a TKS. This continued until he was able to land a kozilek, which hurt, but he was at 2 life. I proceeded to hit another win-con out of his hand, and then took a annighlator hit. Drew a land afterwards which let me win of a vent. G3 was won off a T1 pithing needle locking out his 3 chromatic spheres in hand.
G3 Jund (1-1) G1 I started with an odd hand, but it was 2 souls castable. He dropped a scooze T2, and i sculled a Kolg com afterwards. The next few draws went into back and forth, with me landing a smasher but him a kalitas. I eventually was down to 4 life, and went to pay life for a caves to adctivate a vent to get his top-decked bolt. lol a very fun and interactive game though. G2 I got siezed, BOBed, and then not much. I proceeded to seize back, T3 TKS, t4 sorin, souls and then displacer. Has enough mana to use TKS to lock him on the draw which won the game
From what I have been seeing so far from the sculler build it the abuse that displacer allows. Even against tron if you can get it online, you can lock even them out. It is a very tricky path to walk playing more hand hate than normal, but it seems to be effective in how it keeps you ahead. Games are either real close or blowouts in my favor. I am not sad for dropping the herder, as smasher is just more relavent in a large amount of situations.
From my experience on R/G tron and its variants. Hand hate targeting problematic win-cons so far has resulted in the best hate. Karn, Eldrazi, O-stones, etc are great targets. IMHO ghost quarter should also only be used to time warp yourself with something on the field to pressure them. Stony works if you can getit out fast enough, but pithing needle is a true all star in this match. Reality smasher is also a serious problem for them to deal with too.
Bogles I am curious how blessed alliance enhances our overall match-ups with them.
I think you reached your own conclusion blessed + PtE, and if you run declaration in stone is more than enough removal. Grim Discovery is is an interesting take, I think the new lili fills a similar role and against the GBx decks they are a very real underdog, we have more ghost quarters, manlands and souls in addition to keeping goyf and flayer in check with a much more consistent manabase. Tidehollow is worded differently than brain maggot and often late game if you have enough mana to double blink you get to permanently exile a card provided you stack the triggers in this order <-Return card <-Take card(placed underneath) <- remove card permanently. Westvale felt win more in my testing.
In addition how has your experience in blinking TKS been as well?
Is blessed alliance maindeck worthy yet, or still sideboard material IYHO?
I am going to test out the removal package you are running Mr. Beautox. My experience with ratchet bombs come from local that loved anything and everything aggro (infect and affinity mainly)
Hangerback, Khalitas, and mutavault are all interesting choices. Could hangerback still be effective without K-command? Would hangerback be better with sorin? MD ratchet bomb is also interesting, as well as the endbringers.
well i can explain the ratchet bomb from experience. It hoses affinity and merfolk. It is effectivly a 2 mana wratch against those decks, and fills the same hole that declaration in stone has been used for as of late.
A few questions I have on some cardsI have found a bit of success with. vendetta has proven quite valuable as a sideboard 1 cmc kill card for me, I have been running two and side them in against speed aggro decks. Hasn't really let me down, but not sure if it can exceed the utlity of blessed aliance/warping wail. I also have used grim discovery as another card against some of the grindy match-ups like jund. I have not had a chance to test the eldrazi displacer varient, but I will tommorow. What is you experience with brain maggot over tidehollow sculler? Better mana cost versus stats? Also I have been looking hard at 1-2 westvale abby as an alternate wincon. Win more or not?
alright, after obtaining a bunch of needed stuff from a trade, I went ahead and revamped the deck. I am going for a more controlling route with the deck but I am always interested in feedback. I will also playtest it tomorrow night and will provide feedback from that too.
Interesting list. I would cut the two ratchet bombs for some Inquisition of Kozilek, I found that the sweet spot for BW decks is to run 6 discard spells. You will also want to change up your mana base a bit. You need at least 14 untapped B sources and 12 W sources to have a 90% chance to cast thoughtseize on turn 1 or lingering souls on turn 3. I would also cut the surgical extractions in favor of anguished unmaking. Anguished unmaking is great, it hits annoying things like ensnaring bridge and planeswalkers.
... Scourge could be good against Karn, and like Strangler or Reshaper he hits for 3 starting T3, which is good. He also survives Pyroclasm and Kozilek's return, which isn't terrible. But my 3 power creatures normally do not factor significantly in this matchup; the best line is usually hate, disruption, and a faster clock from TKS, Smasher, and even Blight Herder.
It sounds to me like it is great against tron. It provides a clock and survives their sweepers except for oblivion stone. Karn can only take care of one threat, and I am sure that your opponent will target something other than eternal scourge since thought-knot or reality smasher is a faster clock. To beat tron you need to apply pressure first, then tempo second. You need to make sure that you do not hinder your clock when you disrupt them. If you play a controlling game the first 3 turns while not applying any pressure, you will most likely loose. Their deck was built to dominate midrange decks from turn 4 on; therefore, you need to apply enough pressure in order to kill them by turn 4 or slow them down while applying pressure. Disrupting their manabase is very tricky and often a trap since ghost quarter slows you down by a turn while they can easily fetch a replacement land.
Thanks for the tournament reports deaddrift, I've only been able to play every other week or so recently so I am playing mtg vicariously through you (and some streamers).
Ya I am trying to see if there is a possible way to mana lock several of the comb decks out there. But I am trying to figure out a good way to include a few more colored mana sources in my deck as well. If I dump the ghost quarter lock plan, I might go the route of shambling vents in that manner.
For tron, I normally let them get tron, but attack key pieces of there assault (like TKS a Karn or a wurmcoil) It usually keeps em off kilter enough to have at least a 50/50 rate against them if you play aggressively
alright, after obtaining a bunch of needed stuff from a trade, I went ahead and revamped the deck. I am going for a more controlling route with the deck but I am always interested in feedback. I will also playtest it tomorrow night and will provide feedback from that too.
Against any combo deck we want both relic and thoughtsieze opening against them, and hopefully follow up with either a tks or a sculler. We should hardly ever loose any control/combo match due to the aggressiveness of our removal. Just review the combo decks and know when to remove or discard what to win those matchups. Burn and storm is all about either removing the key combo burn spell or removing their most efficient counter spell. Tks off an untapped shock to hit a boros charm and see their hand is never a bad play t1 or 2.
I would not cut strangler. I would move one in the main with one or two in the side. strangler is another important control aspect in many forms for us, plus it makes relic all that much more worth it.
Secondly Tidehollow sculler is used for a few reasons. Primarily is his interaction with Eldrazi Displacer. If you "displace" him twice in a row, then you get a "free" exile from hand. Combine this with TKS then you are able to lock an opponents draws once you have 6 mana available (Eldrazi temple is gold here). This is an inevitability factor that cannot be avoided. Also in this situation when they draw a land, you get to further remove more of what little they have left in their hand.
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Wasteland Strangler
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
Spells (19)
4 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Path to Exile
1 Liliana, the last hope
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Relic of Proginitous
1 Zealous Persecution
Lands (25)
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tomb of the Archangel
1 Westvale Abby
1 Wastes
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Coilos
3 Shambling Vents
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Languish
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Anguished Umnaking
2 Spellskite
So a small tourney report.
G1 Buy
G2 Trondrazi (2-1): G1 I locked him pretty handily with hand hate hitting bombs (Karn, Ugin, and pyroclasm), He started dropping bombs late and finally pulled the game out with a platinum emperion preventing me from closing the game. G2 Same set-up as the first game with me hitting Void Winnower and Ulamog with hand hate, than hitting him with a TKS. This continued until he was able to land a kozilek, which hurt, but he was at 2 life. I proceeded to hit another win-con out of his hand, and then took a annighlator hit. Drew a land afterwards which let me win of a vent. G3 was won off a T1 pithing needle locking out his 3 chromatic spheres in hand.
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Anguished Unmaking Out: 4 Lingering Souls All stars: TKS, Smasher, Pithing Needle, Sculler
G3 Jund (1-1) G1 I started with an odd hand, but it was 2 souls castable. He dropped a scooze T2, and i sculled a Kolg com afterwards. The next few draws went into back and forth, with me landing a smasher but him a kalitas. I eventually was down to 4 life, and went to pay life for a caves to adctivate a vent to get his top-decked bolt. lol a very fun and interactive game though. G2 I got siezed, BOBed, and then not much. I proceeded to seize back, T3 TKS, t4 sorin, souls and then displacer. Has enough mana to use TKS to lock him on the draw which won the game
In: 2 pithing needle, 1 blessed alliance Out: 1 ghost quarter, 1 zealous persecution, 1 something else
All stars: TKS, Displacer, GQ, Sculler, Path
From what I have been seeing so far from the sculler build it the abuse that displacer allows. Even against tron if you can get it online, you can lock even them out. It is a very tricky path to walk playing more hand hate than normal, but it seems to be effective in how it keeps you ahead. Games are either real close or blowouts in my favor. I am not sad for dropping the herder, as smasher is just more relavent in a large amount of situations.
Bogles I am curious how blessed alliance enhances our overall match-ups with them.
Here is the Gatherer entry too. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382201
In addition how has your experience in blinking TKS been as well?
Is blessed alliance maindeck worthy yet, or still sideboard material IYHO?
I am going to test out the removal package you are running Mr. Beautox. My experience with ratchet bombs come from local that loved anything and everything aggro (infect and affinity mainly)
well i can explain the ratchet bomb from experience. It hoses affinity and merfolk. It is effectivly a 2 mana wratch against those decks, and fills the same hole that declaration in stone has been used for as of late.
A few questions I have on some cardsI have found a bit of success with. vendetta has proven quite valuable as a sideboard 1 cmc kill card for me, I have been running two and side them in against speed aggro decks. Hasn't really let me down, but not sure if it can exceed the utlity of blessed aliance/warping wail. I also have used grim discovery as another card against some of the grindy match-ups like jund. I have not had a chance to test the eldrazi displacer varient, but I will tommorow. What is you experience with brain maggot over tidehollow sculler? Better mana cost versus stats? Also I have been looking hard at 1-2 westvale abby as an alternate wincon. Win more or not?
Ya I am trying to see if there is a possible way to mana lock several of the comb decks out there. But I am trying to figure out a good way to include a few more colored mana sources in my deck as well. If I dump the ghost quarter lock plan, I might go the route of shambling vents in that manner.
For tron, I normally let them get tron, but attack key pieces of there assault (like TKS a Karn or a wurmcoil) It usually keeps em off kilter enough to have at least a 50/50 rate against them if you play aggressively
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 matter reshaper
4 thought-knot seer
3 blight herder
3 reality smasher
artifacts
4 relic of proginitus
2 ratchet bomb
sorceries and instants
3 path to exile
4 thoughtseize
2 surgical extraction
3 lingering souls
2 sorin, solemn visitor
land
1 plains
1 wastes
1 swamp
1 vault of the archangel
1 bojuka bog
1 cavern of souls
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 godless shrine
4 ghost quarter
4 caves of coilos
4 eldrazi temple
1 ratchet bomb
1 path to exile
2 anguished unmaking
1 wasteland strangler
3 duress
2 dismember
1 vendetta
2 day of judgement
1 crucible of worlds
1 pithing needle